fireplace suggestions please
Need to tap the collective knowledge base again.
Designing a new house and I need to put in a wood burning fireplace. I have never had a fireplace, so I hope someone can learn me what I need to know about these appliances. Can you point me to a URL, or got basic requirements to watch out for?
Thanks.
Replies
This for yourself or a client?
If it's for a client, evaluate how set on an open fireplace the client is, and for what reasons. Then try to sell them on a woodstove.
If it's for you, I'd suggest you change your mind and put in a cast-iron woodstove instead of an open fireplace. A Jotul #3 will heat 10,000 CuFt of living space quite nicely in very cold climates, and use very little wood doing so. No open fireplace can do this. Installation is extremely simple; your local supplier will doubtless have all the information you need.
Open fireplaces are extremely inefficient for heating any serious amount of living space. They have an æsthetic charm for some people (including me), but a high-end cast-iron woodstove such as a Jotul can easily be just as attractive while doing an excellent job of heating at the same time.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
This will be for myself. I like the efficiency of a stove, but the aesthetics win out...I don't think I can get the stove past the SWMBO.
Take She Who Must Be Obeyed to a good wood-stove dealer, one that stocks Jotuls, Vermont Castings, Elmira Stove Works, and so forth, and preferably has some models set up and actually burning on the showroom floor. Let her see the beautiful enameled cast iron and the flames behind the glass in the doors.
Then point out to her that it's really difficult to cook a pot of soup or a pot roast on top of a fireplace when the electricity goes out during a storm. You ever try to boil a big pot of water for spaghetti on a campfire? An open fireplace is no better for cooking than that. But a cast-iron woodstove, even one not specifically designed for cooking, generates so much more useable heat from the same amount of fuel that you can plop a kettle of ice-cold water on top of one and have boiling water for coffee or tea in about ten minutes if the stove is going full blast. Or, you crank it down to minimum when you go to bed, and your coffee water--or soup or whatever--is simmering nicely waiting for you when you wake up in the morning....
Then remind her that an open fireplace is about as ecologically friendly as a diesel engine with dirty injectors, and that it needlessly wastes good firewood by blowing 85% of the heat generated straight up the chimney. A well-designed cast-iron <air-tight> woodstove is extremely efficient and produces very low toxic emission levels; a lot lower than most people's automobiles in fact. Some stoves are even equipped with catalytic converters similar to those in modern cars.
If she absolutely insists on a fireplace, at least try to get her to agree to a fireplace insert, which looks like a fireplace with a glass door on the front and functions somewhat like a free-standing stove. These are a lot cleaner-burning and more efficient. Not to mention safer. In fact, many insurance companies refuse to insure open fireplaces anymore....
Plain, masonry open fireplaces today are for that hunting cabin you only use for a week per year. And even there, most people prefer to install an inexpensive steel woodstove, as installation is incredibly easier and usable heat generated is many times higher.Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Honestly, you added another dimension that I haven't really considered in a fireplace--to actually heat the house with it. Yeah, go figure...I think mainly because no one I know with a wood fireplace actually uses it on a regular basis to warm the house. They're mainly decorative elements.So far from this thread, I've learned about stoves and masonry fireplaces. Both I've not considered, but definitely got merits.
If all you want out of a fireplace is a decorative element, save youself some dough and trouble and get one of those electric thingys at Canadian Tire with the little rotating lights behind some injection-moulded plastic logs that always look like they're burning. I think you can get a unit like this for under $200, and they just plug into a standard outlet. All you have to do is cut a hole in the gyprock and shove the thing in until the trim meets the wall; no chimney required. Heck, you could have one in every room at that price. Just like in the real old days.
I think there's a ceramic element in the things and that they actually put out 1500 watts of heat, too, but I'm not sure. I was laughing too hard to look that close....
<G>Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
There yah go! SWMBO will be happy and when she is happy, they can make another kind of heat.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hope I'm not starting any 'flame' war here....
(Sorry, couldn't resist.)
Okay, mea culpa....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
What now? You trying to cover up the flames by blowing smoke?LOLIn my observation, people want the open fireplace from a romantic idealic sense that has no basis in reality. flames take us back in time to our origins. Folks visualize themselves sitting there in front of the flames and...But then once they spend all the money and space on it, and burn it a few times, and spill bark and ash all over the place, it is lucky to get used more than three times a year.but don't get me wrong, I make a lot of money satisfying those fantasies. I guess I'm just a hot flaming gigilo
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
ROAR!!
I know what you mean. F'r instance: My parents last two houses (faux Colonial McMansions, both of 'em) each included two fireplaces. Each was equipped (natch) with a gas starter pipe. Heck, you don't need newspaper, greasy egg crates, or kindling to get the wood started. Just a box of those foot-long matches with the heads in all different purty colours....
I think in the entire six years I lived with them in that first house we must have burned at least half a face cord. But Dad's gone to his reward lo these many years and Mom's gettin' on; so now when she gets a chill, she just lights up the gas pipe and watches the flames squirt outta the holes for a while till she feels better....Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Fireplaces are a little more likely to be used than whirlpool baths, but not much. Folks find out it's too much trouble, and they don't like the smokey smell. (And I don't care what folks say about "A fireplace with a proper draft never smells", they DO smell -- often worse when out.)
...But if you're gonna murder trees just to watch them burn, the least you could do from a moral standpoint would be to use the heat instead of blowing it and a bunch of half-burned toxic gasses out into the atmosphere.
Sorry, Tufenhundel; maybe I'm overreacting. I have a lot of trouble in general understanding how people can let their desire to have a certain look override all other considerations, especially when some of those considerations are consequences that extend outside their own private space. Don't take my nasty (but efficient) way of pointing out the reality of decorative wood-burning as an attack on you; take it as an attack on the position you're proposing. If I can persuade you to abandon that position by being a little bit graphic in my comments, well, so much the better for both of us....Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
If you want the best, go with a "fireplacextrordinair" by Travis Industries.
http://www.fireplacextrordinair.com
I put one in my new 3,500 sq.ft. house and used it almost exclusively to heat my house this winter. Of course I live in GA not MN. :) It is more efficient than most certified wood stoves.
View Image
"It's not denial. I'm just selective about the reality I accept."
Thanks Dawg. I checked that site. They have a rather limited wood burner selection. I was thinking of a retangular design, and all their wood burners have the arch :(
Go ahead and plan for it to be upgraded to gas at some point -- pull a gas line within a few feet, and maybe an electrical connection.
I need to burn wood. I'll have a lot of expensive firewood coming from my woodshop :) I was thinking of a way to get rid of em, and get some use from them in the process.
No answer?Does this mean you still don't know if you want a masonry or metal prefab?It is hard to answer your design detail question if you don't know. They are two different kinds of units.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I am sold on masonry heaters.
I have a jotul#3 - great stove (for sale if you're near Western MD), but I replaced it with a masonry heater - and built it from an old FH design from a library book. These things are VERY efficient - they are heavy though, (I think mine weighs 14K lbs) and have to be designed in with big footers.
The basic principle is the smoke leaves the firebox through a circuitous path - dumping its heat into the brick as it goes. I built a really BIG firebox - two hot fires a day basically heated 2800 s.f. with 27' ceilings in the great room. If you burned a woodstove this hot, it would glow red.
The best part about masonry heaters is mass - you burn a hot fire (efficient, less creosote etc.), and the brick heats up, the fire goes out, DW doesn't worry about sleeping while a fire burns, and 2 days later the brick (or stone) is still warm. I have this thing about burning wood - maybe I'll change my mind when I am older, but I like cutting, splitting, burning, and the smell...so no gas fireplaces for me. Plus they look better imho.
Also, with masonry, kids will not burn themselves on hot metal, and love to sit leaning against the warm stone. I actually built it myself of firebrick and cast refractory cement. (my first attempt at masonry anything) Google "Masonry Heater Association" if want to know more. Norbert Senf runs the site - he sells kits, others sell kits, and there is a Norwegian company that makes soapstone versions as well.
Here is the one I built: (a friend did the stone) We have sold that house, and am planning one in the house I am building this summer.
Edited 4/3/2005 12:53 am ET by Brian
Nice heater!I had a client who wanted a masonry heater instead of a fireplace. I contacted Albie @ Maine Wood Heat in Norridgewock, Maine. After I got the stack to the first floor level, he came down to CT for the week and we, (along with 2 paying masons who used it as a workshop), built the whole 1st floor heater, including a bake oven. Then I took over and finished the chimney.While he was here, Albie took us to Guilford CT, where 2 years prior he had built another heater. The ho had it all set up for us when we got there. He lit it up, we got to see how it worked. Fantastic, and the ho was obviously very happy with it. At the cleanout doors there was just dust! Very impressive.But...........I still like the Rumford style fireplace. Rod
I like that heat performance! Now, can I get one that's low profile, i.e., only show the stone face of the fireplace? How does cost compare to prefab unit? I'd imagine with the masonry trade involved, it'd be at the high end, no?
That's impressive that the first masonry thing you did was that masonry heater. Hat's off to you, sir.
Hey piffin: Sorry in the delay. I really didn't know how to answer as I don't really even know this much. What are the cost considerations, and benefits?My original plan was to install a fireplace that is low profile (not really a prominent feature of the room), burns wood so I can get rid of scraps and mistakes from the shop, and stay within our budget.I'd also like to mount it perhaps higher than traditional, so the fire can be viewed across the house. So I was wondering about mounting requirements, and options like gas starter lines, ash disposal, and all that.I like the discussion about various options I was ignorant of, 'all good.
All the prefab units will have spec sheets telling you how to build , what clearances are needed, and design requirements for what works around it. Many building depts go by the UL sheets that accompany the units. Others prefer their own, local ordinacesBeyond that, I will pass on recommending anything because it appears that you and your spouse are not agreed on what you want. A cast iron circulating insert type as shown above is a good compromise when it has operable or glass fronted doors so your sweetie will be able to see it. Plain old open fireplaces as built in the majority of modern American homes are better airconditioners than heaters.
As for shop waste, I would limit myself to using it only as kindling and not for major heating and fires. Especially in a fireplace. A stove has the controls to burn it more safely.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
full masonry, or cheap metal prefab???
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Pre fab steel is a throwaway. Check out isokern. Precast volcanic concrete.
Everything you need to know is here.
http://www.rumford.com
Rod
WARNING
Not all wood from your shop will be burnable.
Some exotic woods look very nice in furniture but are toxic when burnt.
Almost any wood with a finish on it is toxic because of the finish. This is very true with all varnishes and paints.
Not trying to scare you, just want to keep you around for a while.
Dane
I will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
Not sure of your client's lifestyle or budget, but we too spoke to Albie from Maine Wood Heat and saw 2 of his completed projects. Not having an unlimited budget, we went with 1st floor & cellar slab radiant heat - we really enjoy the even heat.
The homes that featured Albie's masonry heaters had a very open design; ours has an open 1st floor but private bedrooms upstairs. We found it amazing that one can place a few maple or oak logs into the heater, it burns for about 1 hour (stand back from door!!), and it heats the whole house for one full day with zero degree nights!
daveinnh
Get one with airtight doors that close, and a sealed external air supply.
You can open it for ambience, then close it when you want to go to bed. Efficiency of a woodstove, ambiance of a fireplace.
Open fireplaces are big net energy wasters. You genreally lose more heat up flue during cool-down period than the thing produced during operation.
Is it standard to have closeable flues? How good is the seal on the "airtight" doors? I am planning on super insulating my house, with a fireplace set me back here? I don't remember feeling any draft next to a wood burner of a relative, even on really cold days.I also plan on having a gas fireplace in the bedroom. This I'd imagine well use more often. SWMBO is always cold, so some instant heat on the winter eves is desired. Now I'm concerned about defeating my insulation scheme.
Closable flues?Yes a damper is a standard feature.Drafts aren't fet nearthe wood burnwer, but near whatever window or door is providing the makeup air, unless you design it with a makeup source of O2Airtight? More or less yes if you maintain the seals and don't over burn to over heat and warp the doors
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"Is it standard to have closeable flues? How good is the seal on the "airtight" doors? I am planning on super insulating my house, with a fireplace set me back here? I don't remember feeling any draft next to a wood burner of a relative, even on really cold days."
A fireplace can create a huge hole in your weather barrier. The drafts you feel are elsewhere. The suction is very powerful with an open stack. On an open fireplace, throat dampers are often not very airtight. The type that closes at the top of the flue is pretty good. Neither of these do you any good when you want to goto bed and the fire is dying down. Flue will need to be left open to handle smoke all night, and will suck the heat out the structure.