Just had my first Icynene install. Impressive stuff. Messy stuff. I’ll be cleaning up for a week… and yes, the installers did “clean up”. They must’ve hauled out 10 bags of cut-offs.
Anyway, for those of you who’ve had it done a few questions:
1. They didn’t pack in around the windows. Said it would press on the frame and could warp it. What do you use to fill that space? Also, is there a product off the shelf that is compatible with Icy for a couple of small spots they missed?
2. Have you ever known an Icy install to trip a breaker? Maybe due to heat? I came in after they were done and noticed the breaker to my recessed cans had tripped. It reset fine, but I don’t see any obvious place they would have hit a wire (when it expands it can sometime “push” wire into the living space and get whacked when they trim it back to flush). Maybe just the heat generated by the foam when it expands??
For old houses, I will never use anything else. With no change in heating level, the room is comfortable and warm and quiet as a cathedral.
Brian
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HomeBase______________ LLC
Replies
when that stuff cures it is probably inert...we just used polyurethane foam for the voids....use low-expansion foam for the windows...Ener-foam is a good brand....it could still bow though...those installers were right, they did the right thing. Never heard about the electricity thing before, but our electricity was off when we did it.
Be careful for one thing; if the breakers tripped because of thermal protection for the cans, you need to check if the cans are rated for insulation---some cans (older) aren't; they were never designed to be surrounded on all sides by a draft-free insulation---thus, they over heat and the thermal breaker trips them off as a safety measure to prevent a fire.
They do make cans and light enclosures that can be surrounded....
NotaClue
Hey Not,
it's a good point but these are IC/airloc Juno cans. Brand new. I'm figgering that either the spray is very warm as it expands or one of these guys put a staple through a wire as they tied back the electric. I can't recall if I mentioned in my first post, but you have to staple the jayzus out of your wiring on an icy install b/c it want to push the wire into the living space and could easily be cut when they trim it back. I didn't know this so they did some of their own "stapling"_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
Heat would not do it unless they foamed around the CB panel.My best guess is that the foam moved a wire around. And either a loose connection in one of the cans or a staple or nail penatrated the cable.
Yah, then you did it right with the Cans and it's most likely the errant staple.
Amazing stuff.
Sitting here in the 3rd story room, it's drizzling cold rain outside, the plasma screen is keeping a 20 X 30 room warm all on it's own, the HVAC hasn't kicked in all day yet.
Eerie.
Makes you wonder the national energy use would be like if either open or closed cell foam was code.
NotaClue
The spray leaves the gun at approx 120F and the chemical reaction is exothermic as well, raising the temp to perhaps 150-175F I'm guessing. I have never seen an issue like you've described with the light though. Stu
hey all. found it today!! they had, indeed, belted a wire with the blade and then tried to bury it!!! lucky I found it at all.
hopefully can run a new feed without needing to respray a cavity. i'll hold back half the invoice to make sure i've got their attention. nice way to bury a fire hazard. the ground had be cut!!
thanks again,
Brian_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
Boston-
You sound like a great guy, not to mention very understanding and accomodating!
Not to say I've never cut a wire, but when I do at least I let someone know! Those security system ones are the worst because they need slack in there to pull out in the future for service.
My father and brother are both IBEW electricians and I've learned the dangers of a small nick through the insulation!
This reminds me to get another bucket of romex staples for the truck too. Glad you like the foam product. Let you're friends and customers know.
Stu
Thanks Stu. Stuff happens... would really be a bummer if I had to compromise the foam to re-run the wire.
What do you guys do in cases like that... would you send the truck out to respray? Tough luck? Something else?
I hollowed out a small bit near a switch box to see if that was the problem, and was just going to reseal with an off-the-shelf foam product. (Not Great Stuff or any polyurethane product... the other type).
On a stud bay though, I'd worry about getting a good seal and product compatability.
I'd welcome your thoughts. Hate to even make an issue of it. Was a great crew of guys, and the guy who runs the place and I share no fewer than 25 clients in common! (Most of my builder clients do high-end residential work and we've compared notes).
Thanks again.
Brian_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
I would do whatever the right thing to do in each case is.
With a little spot, like around the electrical box, i would simply fill that in with a great stuff type small can of foam. An entire bay would warrant the truck coming out to respray that area for sure.
I'm sure they are great guys too and will come right out and make it good as new.
Stu
i'm sure you're right, and thanks. have you seen any compatability probs using poly (great stuff) closed cell next to Icy? I would be concerned that they wouldn't "stick" together, but now that i think about... is there anything that great stuff doesn't stick to!!??
hey, your profile say's you're out by Longmeadow. Ever do any work with Kent Pecoy and Sons? Absolutely outstanding company in the W. Springfield area. Top quality work and top quality human beings. Keep an eye peeled if you haven't worked with them.
thanks, Stu.
Brian_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
As a matter of fact Kent is my best customer. I am in the middle of a job for him right now. The fact that he builds the best homes of anyone in the area a natural for my product.
He is really a great guy to work with and treats all the subs like he wants them to treat him. All the different crews are respectful and help each other out. That's the only way to get the top quality luxury homes built on schedule with the uncompromizing quality Kent demands.
Thanks for the tip anyways.
Stu
Too funny. I worked with them to hire Norm, who you've probably met by now. Another class act. They are, hands down, the best firm out that way (and among the top in New England) and my experience working with Kent, Neil, Scott and the crew was exactly as you described. Real gentlemen.
Thanks again, Stu. Here's to a prosperous 2006.
_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
Small world.
Cheers!
Quick question for you as a foam insulator, which may be of benefit to others here. When the customer has chosen to have the stud/rafter bays filled with foam (i.e. competely, not partially), what depth of incomplete filling will generally make you go back and spray a bit more in that area?
My Icynene install is nearing completion, and tomorrow when the guys come back to finish my garage/shop ceiling I want to know what areas to ask them to re-coat. There are numerous areas, typically a couple of feet high within a bay, where the foam is only 4" rather than 5.5" thick. Is that typical, or do you fill completely and saw off everything that extends out beyond the stud faces?
A very fair question MM.
I always sell foam based on nominal thickness. For walls I usually sell 5" in the wall. Most of the wall is overfilled past the 5.5" thickness of the stud. So if 10% is only 4.5" that is still a nominal depth of 5.4".
A defect is an area filled less than 4" on a 2x6 wall. That is my own rule. Everyone is different.
Understand that the foam expands 120x it's size after it's sprayed on. So the minimum volume to come out is like a softball size. So filling a golf ball sized spot is 90% wasted material for very little gain.
Basically they should deliver what ever they sold you.
Let us know how things work out for you.
Stu
Thanks for the direct and practical answer. I paid for 5.5" in the walls and 7.5" in the ceilings. The ceiling average depth below my EPS vent baffles is only 6.75" so I expect the ceilings to be very good indeed. And so far the walls have more defects than the ceilings. I figure any continuous defect more than 1" deep and more than 1' long is cause for a little additional re-spray.
Man, they'd be well served by a smaller "touch-up" gun! Re-application with the main gun wastes a hellacious amount of foam- it's nearly impossible to get complete coverage of a thin enough layer to do the job, so they have to err on the heavy side.
My inspector said that his chief beef with spray foam installations is the lack of continuous contact between the code-required 6 mil poly vapour barrier and the insulation (something that's admittedly much less of a problem with FG or mineral fibre batts which he more typically sees around here). It's a sensible concern, because any substantial air gap in an insulated assembly is a natural convection cell waiting to happen. I discussed the inspector's concern with my icynene contractor prior to accepting his bid so he knew what he was in for.
Just a curiosity- what do you do with the scrap foam? Is anybody shredding it and using it for packing material etc? Or does it go straight to landfill?
Whoa; cutting the line....
Glad you found it.
NotaClue
BTW, we used Icynene and I'd never use anything else again.
It's amazing.
NotaClue
BTW, we used Icynene and I'd never use anything else again. Really? If someone offered to use something like Corbond as a spray-on expanding foam insulation that has about twice the R-value per inch you would not be interested in it? :)
good point, Nuke. Around here, the closed cell foams are pretty expensive. seems like most people only use it in basements. did look at corbond, and like it in concept even more than icy because, if I recall correctly, it inhibits moisture transfer._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
Corbond is a great product. I spray that in addition to various other foams. Everything has it's place. Corbond is a super high performance foam. I recommend that where space is limited or we have an unusual factor involved like high moisture area.
The house I'm insulating now has a steam shower in it. In that area I will be using the Corbond (closed cell) foam to protect against the higher than usual vapor drive.
The performance is high and the cost associated with it. Of course, who ever regretted buying the best?
Stu
Oh yeah, that would be the other great place for it; to keep moisure OUT of the walls that was interiorly generated.
NotaClue
The moisture transfer problem was the biggest problem with closed cell for our application (renovation of a 116 year old Victorian).
The open cell's ability to breath made it the cat's meow for this application.The only thing I wish was that the open cell didn't create tocix fumes when it burned----even, that it was tumescent (right term?)....but like someone said, after the alarms and whatnot go off, I'm out of here until the fire department does its job.I think in new construction, where I could guarantee the building envelope's integrity or add a rain plan, corbond would be great. Indeed, since I have to tear out the entire foundations somewhere else and lay in new reinforced concrete with moisture barriers on the outside, Corbond will get a very very close look for that application.
NotaClue
A thought on the cans.........I have seen many cans with thermal protection that open the circuit to turn the bulb off but I haven't seen any that short the breaker. I would ask my electrician about possible causes. I have used Icynene on a few projects(I sprayed my own home first) and I think it is a great product. I agree it is very messy. I had a fine mist penetrate a bathroom floor that was half completed with a new jacuzzi tub at my home. It put 1,000,000 pinhead sized dots all over the new tub. I discovered it after 1 week and was afraid to use the solvents they suggested so I just completed the bath and asked all guests to pick off 100 dots every time they took a shower or bath. Would have been a real nightmare if it were an HO and not mine. Thank God my wife is understanding and loves her new guest bath, tub looks fine but knocking the tiny dots off with your finger was the only method I found to work.
Scott