I hired a licensed painting contractor who has been in business thirty years and enjoys a good reputation. When they were painting my neighbors’ house, I noticed the unconventional way his foreman “glazed” wooden windows. They remove the old, loose compound, fill these spots with Fix-All, then apply a thin layer of spackle (pink when wet but dries white). He said this last layer was easily sanded smooth, much faster to apply than glazing compound and could be painted the same day.
Would it be fair to ask them to glaze my wooden windows with glazing compound? The larger question is : Do you allow clients to dictate the specific way you work to complete the project?
Replies
Please find out about this product. Whats the exact name?
I have 30-12 over 12's I'm starting to glaze tomorrow (Monday). We've already pulled out all ther old glazing and primed where all the new glazing will be going in the front of the house so far.
That product sounds great. Maybe too great great to be true?
I'll try Googling it for now.
Thanks
andy..
If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
I have replaced putty with moulding if time is a factor and the finished product will be behind storm windows.
Ripped screen mould makes a fairly nice profile. Don't need to wait two weeks for the glazing to set up.
Troy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
Edited 5/1/2006 6:32 am by Hackinatit
My apologies. The correct name is Fix-It-All, as BillHartman wrote. The ingredients are gypsum, starch, wood flour and limestone. It is a fast-setting patching compound for plaster, wallboard, brick and cement. Thank you.
I'd recommend sticking with glazing compoind, Andy.Fix-all is a hot mix plaster type product which I've used for filling large holes in remodeling, usually where sheetrock and old plaster come together. It is also sometimes called Patch all. Can also be used to smoothe floors before carpet over not-so-great concrete.But whadda I know. maybe there are entirely different products that are also sold under those names.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
Well....we've started the glazing today using real old fashioned DAP glazing. Gonna take a good day to get better at it. Kinda slow going right now....but.....I'm doing it right!
We got all the loose old glazing out. Washed all the woodwork after that with TSP then blasted the wood with the hose on full force.
Next day when it was totally dry (I use my moisture meter to be sure) we oil primed all the mullions.
Let that dry over night and today....we were glazing at the end of the day (among other things). Perfect week for it. Low seventies and real sunny out : )
I knew there was gonna be a learning curve but after we do 30-12 over 12's we should be experts.If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
And there aren't many experts left on re-glazing.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
I seem to remember a hint of something to add to the Dapp 33 putty to make it easeir to work. I have used the original and the latex in the tube, but it always seems to drag on my knife, so I don't get the real smooth finish I am looking for.
Edited 5/3/2006 12:28 pm ET by KirkG
If the DAP 33 is a little stiff you can would some linseed oil into it.For a putty knife I have found that bright new chrome plated on makes all of the difference. And old rough one will catch and drag the putty.
If the DAP 33 is a little stiff you can would some linseed oil into it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bill...I donno but I'm not so sure adding oil to the compound is such a good idea. I find that when its a "little" stiff that means its just right. At that point its all about working it into a ball in your hands to warm it just right. I'm really not sure how adding oil to it will effect it. MAke it take longer to dry? MAke it not as durable? I just don't really know so...all I do know is... is that its going on really nicely now. Only 20 something more 12 over 12's to go.
Its just like everything else...its all about taking the time, paying attention and being patient (very). I should be a total pro by my next house...oiy.
How old am I again???If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
here's a product that claims ready to paint after application, haven't used it
http://www.solventfreepaint.com/window_glazing.htm
on putty knives, if it's old polish with 400 to 600 grit paper and moisten with thinner and it will smooth the putty like warm butter
"here's a product that claims ready to paint after application, haven't used it"Not exactly.Says that you paint it with LINSEED OIL paint.Not a very common product.
Says that you paint it with LINSEED OIL paint.Not a very common product.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>And $85 a gal. + shippingIf Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
I just did the glazing thing both ways for an article that's supposed to be in the next FHB. Sorry I didn't see this post earlier, but I've been taping, tiling, and uploading like a maniac for a week.
Traditional glazier's putty is not that hard once you get the swing of it (and you oughta be there by now, LOL!). Either squeeze out a rope from a ball of putty held in your palm, or roll it out into a snake on the glass, whatever works best for you. I don't need the notched v-blade but it works well, too. A standard flat, stiff putty knife is the secret. I hold it vertically, with the flat edge against the glass, and pull the knife sideways. This makes it easy for me to keep the angle of the putty steep so it won't show from the inside past the edge of the rabbet. If the putty pulls, it's too dry/cold. If it won't take and keep its form, it's too oily (let it sit out of the bag for a day or so).
Silicon caulk works well, too. Professional glaziers who do this all day long don't use it because it doesn't. But you need a good thermoplastic-rubber caulk like Flextra View Image, which will hold like hell for 20 years and then still pull off in one long, unbroken cord without shredding the sash. (http://www.mulco.ca/En/Detail/produits/Produits_c_ext.htm) and a pneumatic caulking gun. The trick is to cut the tip just right for the width of the bead you want (cut at a 45-degree angle; don't listen to what's written on the tube!), and then you don't tool the caulk. Let the tip do the tooling as you lay it in. If you need to tool it afterwards, you screwed up.
This means you have to move the tip smoothly, at a constant speed, without changing the angle of the tip or the flow-rate of the product. That's where a pneumatic gun is indispensable: With an air gun, there's no 'pumping' as you don't have to repeatedly pull and release the lever the way you do with a manual gun. (It also makes it a heck of a lot easier on your forearms when you have a bunch of 12/12's to do....)
For your windows, Andy, I'd agree the traditional putty is the better way to go. You're not just fixing up that place, you're restoring it.Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
well, just about goin' on 30 hours of non stop glazing and I think I've got it ...lol. I can do it in my sleep already.
For "me" no other tool works better than the conventional glazing v notched knife. I've tried a half a dozen glazing gizmos already.
When glazing windows in certain instances the V part of the knife is a pain in the a$$ any which way you cut it so to speak. When you get near the pertuding jambs around four sides of the sash the tool almost hits the jambs and throws your tooling skills off. I've been using the straight square end around the perimeter panes. By now I've got the technique down really good.
The inventer of this simple tool had it down perfectly IMO.. Square end indispensible as is the V notched end. Perfect lil' tool! The rigidity of it is perfect as well.
Personally I really don't like the snake rolling technique everyone keeps jawin about. To me it also doesnt matter how cold it is out as long as you warm balls of glazing real well. Longer warming in yer hands in cold weather is all.If its seriously cold out I've used my heat gun real gently so as not to crack the glass. Just run the heat around the perimeter of the frame for a few seconds.
I like to just rip off pieces from the ball and push it up hard into the frame between the wood and the glass. I can do it this way in a matter of seconds for each pane. When I push it in this way I'm asured of good contact/adhesion. ...and then I push it in deep yet with the straight end of the tool and then tool it with no problems at all using either the straight end or the V end of the tool. What ever works best in the application.
I can't at this point imagine any way that could be faster or better.
By the way...I've tried two different "caulking gun" type glazing products and don't like them at all. I'd have to say at this point, the way I've been doing it is the best over all technique for just about any glazing application IMO...for me.If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
"Silicon caulk works well, too.
Professional glaziers who do this all day long don't use it because it doesn't."I think that something got lost in the translation.
Whaa-hoo! I must have written that one after a few rum-and-rums....
It actually says what it's supposed to say, but it would have been a hell of a lot clearer if I hadn't left off the last word:
"Professional glaziers who do this all day long don't use it because it doesn't work."
It would have been clearer yet if I'd just said, "they wouldn't use it if it didn't work." One of the few cases where the subjunctive is clearer than the indicative....
And, ummm...speaking of 'work', it's time to get to.Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dip your putty knife in mineral spirits or boiled linseed oil to keep it from dragging. Also, if you spray mist the glazing just before you make the last pass over the whole lite, you can get a nice smooth finish that skins over fairly quickly.
Fix All is a fantastic compound that is more versital than Durhams Rock Hard or anything else I've used. I discovered it in California when I worked there. I now live in WI and can't get it. I've recommended it to the stores and lumber yards to no avail. Whenever I'm in CA or go to Vegas I pick up 4 five lb boxes. # for myself and one for another ex-western carp.
Let me give you an example of how it got me out of a jam. One time I had to gut a room (plaster) rewire and rock it. I had to save this old very ornate painted base. After rocking and painting I started applying the base and it was too short! I had forgotten that plaster and lath are often thicker than half inch drywall. The guy I was working with recommended Fix All. You can apply it and after about a half hour it reaches the right consistency where you can mold it to any shape. You have another half hour or so before it gets too hard. After awhile it sets up real hard but you can still sand it. Durhams sets up in a flash and you can't sand it. It is a different product.
Trust me.. it will change your life.
Silly question, but I gotta ask (been there, got the t-shirt) - you did acquire the right tool for the job, didn't you?
View Image
Thanks for posting the picture of what I tried to discribe...(how do you include that in the body of the message, anyway?)
I used a putty knife for years until my MOM showed me how to use the "folded" (there's gotta be a better word!!) end.....She was the fixer-upper around the house.....
The problem with the DAP window putty is that it takes too low to harden enough to paint over.Has anybody tried the new water-based window putty?? Elmers brand is one.
I will see if I can find the Elmers brand. I will also try to find some linseed oil to try in the Dap. It sounds familier.
Good Scotch takes 30 years......
I went over to the Hyde site, right-clicked on the image and selected "Copy". Started the post, then did Edit Paste (Shift-Insert and Ctrl-V also work) to insert the image.
Man, if you know Cntrl-V then you are at least as old as I am!!!
Shift-insert, huh.....do Win keyboards even have an insert key anymore? (and what flavor of Windows does shift-insert work with?)
Thanks.....
Yep, I'm an old f*rt, still have a soft spot for MS DOS :-). Ctrl-Insert to copy, Shift-Insert to paste; every version of Windows up to and including XP Pro.
Yep...we have three of those knives....
Here's a tip. I had three containers of DAP. The first one I opened had liquid on the top. I stirred it into the mix. Emptied the whole thing outta the container and mixed the whole thing into a ball and put it back in the container. We used it on a few windows with not great results. Didn't seem to stick as well as we'd have liked. I tried everything from heat guns to making balls in my hand warming it up,adding a little boilded linseed oil, to using the heat gun on the glass/mullion a little to heat that first. Went on just ok...not great.
Used up the first jug (fast) then Opened up the second container. No liquid on the top. Just a bit stiff. Made some balls to warm it up. Went on like butter. Night and day from the first container. I think the stuff doesnt have an indefinate shelf life or something. So be suspicious if you see liquid on top of a new jug.
Its going on pretty nicely now. One just needs to get the knack is all.
I use the straight part of the knife to push it in and the V part with the inside of the V as my working tool part. The notch on the tool is our guide on the wood.
Everything is cleaned and oil primed first.
Its been mid 60's out to 70. One pane that I did a test on before we actually rock and rolled. That was 11 days ago. Its hard enough to paint but not hard enough to sand. Two weeks it should be perfectly cured.
I found a few panes I did last year. Used an 80 grit paper on it and it sanded nicely....so I believe thats the ticket kids.
Wish I'd have started in a more inconspicuos place but its fine...you know how it is....walk right up to whats in yer face first and try it out...cept ya just keep going...If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
I have never in my life heard of sanding window glazing.
Just let the tool do the work ...
knead it up ... make a ball to hold in the palm of your hand ... squeeze a "rope" and keep working/feeding it ... lay it down tight with your hand ... then tool it off.
scrap off the excess ... mould it into the ball and start the next side.
absolutely no need for sanding.
ever.
don't make me come up there and learn ya how to fix an old house!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
" Its hard enough to paint but not hard enough to sand...Used an 80 grit paper on it and it sanded nicely"Sand it?!?!?! With respect, if it needs sanding, I don't think you did it right.I've never heard of anyone sanding glazing compound.
Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
Hey!
Our next political platform on which to run ...
"Don't sand glazing ... dammit!"
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Our next political platform on which to run ..."Don't sand glazing ... dammit!">>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Whydga climb ####mountain?
Cause its there.
HEy...you coulda used a helicopter to get to the top...thats righter, aint it?
YEh, but right now I'll climb it.
Cause I'm learnin' about the mountain.
Next year climbin the mountain will be like using a helicopter~~If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
well get the hell off that copter and trust yer climbing ropes!
wax on ... wax off ... glazing on ...
uh ... that's it ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
zactly wut I'm doin'If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
"Our next political platform on which to run ...'Don't sand glazing ... dammit!'"LOL!!!At least now no one can claim we don't agree on nothing!Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
OK...heres a question for ya. When you've primed something and see some bumps. Would you sand em?
Actually...almost every time I prime a new door I sand the prime coat with a 120 grit then wipe it clean. Doesn't hurt the primer unless you sand it off (just like the glazing). Just makes it real smooth. Did I prime wrong? Nope, but it just makes for as better job "to me". Far as the glazing goes...yes, I'm relatively new to it so I am making imperfections in the glazing. I've probably only glazed a cpl a dozen panes in my life.
To me, nothing is wrong if the end product comes out looking professional..
And so the debate begins : )~If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
I've been following this thread, and have picked up a few pointers ... like what the V'd and notched end of the tool is for. Gonna have to give that a try. Another good tip: Throw out old batches of putty.
I've glazed a few windows over the years, but then many months will pass and it seems I need to learn the technique all over again. My 1830s muntins are only a half-inch wide, but quite deep, so the putty has to be applied at a very steep angle. Seems like I never go steep enough on the first pass, and have to "cut it back" with a second pass.
Andy, good luck with all those 12-over-12s! After a couple more sash, you'll be zipping along quickly with no need to sand. Are you working on a workbench? How are you enclosing the window openings in the meantime? Plywood?
Here's a shot of one of the 9-over-6 windows I built in my shop. I replicated the original muntin profiles by grinding my own blades. I replicated the joinery, also, but glued and didn't peg (for which I've taken some flack from the "purists." The glass is salvaged early cylinder glass.
Allen
View Image
I'm really glad that you mentioned the part about the steep angle because of the width and height of your muntins. It is something I wanted to point out also.Even many of the "pros" seem to forget that the amount of glaizing is defined by the size of the muntin. It should only go from the edge of the muntin to the height.In other words, IF YOU CAN SEE THE GLAZING ON THE WINDOW PANE FROM THE INSIDE, YOU DID IT WRONG!Then the paint should overlap onto the window pane just a tiny amount, like 1/32", to seal the glazing in.ps. Really interesting windows. I don't believe I've seen non-symetrical double hungs before. I wonder if that makes them 1 1/3 - 2/3 hung?
"IF YOU CAN SEE THE GLAZING ON THE WINDOW PANE FROM THE INSIDE, YOU DID IT WRONG."
Bryan, that's worth repeating.
9-over-6 is a fairly common arrangement, especially during the Federal and Greek Revival periods. In early houses I've seen 12-over-8 and other combinations. I've also seen the smaller sash on top, but that always looks odd to me.
Allen
"And so the debate begins : )~"No debate. I'm just amazed that the product CAN be sanded.Whatever works! I'm all for it.I'm sure I've glazed over a hundred panes. Don't know that I'll ever glaze another though. I probably priced myself out of that market, thank goodness.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
I've never heard of anyone sanding glazing compound.>>>>>>>>>>I never heard of that either....till someone told me they did it...so I tried it on spots that were bumpy and it works great.
And of course I haven't done it "100%" perfect nor did who ever did it before me on the panes I didnt have to deal with...but at least I can sand them smooth now that someone told me I can. I'm sure by the time I get to the end I'll be perfect but until then its nice to know I can sand out any ridges or bumps.With respect, if it needs sanding, I don't think you did it right.>>>>>
Its just like anything else...not right is one thing but imperfect is another.
I "did" do it right...even "pretty" good for an amature, just not perfect.
And by the way to me an amature glazer is someone that hasnt done at least a hundred panes of glass...If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
"Wish I'd have started in a more inconspicuos place but its fine...you know how it is....walk right up to whats in yer face first and try it out...cept ya just keep going..."
Ah, yea, that would be my style. Did that refinishing the deck today - oh well, I'm the only one who'll see it - LOL.
andybuildz,Maybe I missed it (sorry if you already mentioned it) but some contractors around here had the paint store shake the glazing for them.Fz
Take a bit of the DAP and roll it between your palms to form a "snake" this warms it up and makes it easier to place a long rope of putty in the frame. You can use a heat gun on the putty and also use it on you putty knife to make things flow easier.
Andy,Thanks for the heads up on what the vee end of the glazing tool is for: "The notch on the tool is our guide on the wood." I have the tool and never used the vee end of it. Never even wondered enough to try and figure it out, either.Like a previous poster, I priced out of the reglazing market long ago, and don't miss it. If I had a time machine, I'd go back to my young self and clue him in to the tool and its use. I know he (I) would have appreciated it.Bill
I haven't used this myself, but I've heard good things about the glazing compound from Sherwin-Williams. I think they call it "66" to differentiate it from the "33" from DAP. It is supposed to last longer and have greater bonding.I've gotten to where I don't think much of DAP products in general, but their glazing was all that there was for a long time.
IMHO, the only proper way to glaze single pane sash is the way it's always been done....clean out all the old putty, prime where necessary, and glaze with traditional putty....
the other products I have seen used make it very hard to reglaze (for a broken pane, for example) because they either harden to an unremovable consistancy or a caulk consistancy that adheres TOO well, and the cutting corners approach usually means a poor job overall...where some of the loose is chipped out, but not all, etc.
A good putty knife ( it's got a bent flat blade on one side and what looks like a corner blade on the other ) and a mini-torch make it go faster......
first of all..what's fix all? some kind of adhesive?
I don't mind if clients want something in particular..as long as it's legal, doesn't undermine the integrity of the project I'm working on and they are willing to pay for it.
Edited 4/30/2006 4:13 pm by BarryE
I just googled it and it is the trade name but doesn't say much about it.If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
I found a fix all glazing from Holdfast in New Zealand. Is that the same one you found?
Barry E-Remodeler
Around here the window company is glazing with latex-silicone caulk. I have done quite a bit of it too. Just prime, blue tape the glass, caulk and strike with the bent putty knife cleaning knife with damp sponge.
50 year caulk. El fasto.
I'd never use caulk for glazing. First of all it's impossible to correct if you don't get it perfect and its near impossible to get it perfect.
By the time you do get it perfect or even near perfect you may as well have done it right with glazing.
Reckon I'll stick to the old fashioned glazing until someone comes up with something better.If Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
andybuildz,I agree there are situations that this wouldn't work. But if you have the sash out of the opening, flat - you can do it really good with about a 2 1/2 inch flexible knife and sponge conditioner. I can do a B+ in the opening, durable, fast - I bet it will outlast the glazing. You can prime over with latex primer within 15 minutes if you keep a wet brush. But not as crisp I agree.Fz
abouta year or more ago there was a real good discussion that went on and on and on and I've dug it out of the arcives more than once. Migh thave to again tomorrow....oh sh!d...it is tomorrow....nightIf Blodgett says, Tipi tipi tipi it must be so!
TipiFest 06~~> Send me your email addy for a Paypal invoice to the greatest show on earth~~>[email protected]
Here ya go: http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=71168.1
By the way, I started trying to reglaze some old pocket windows (6 and 6 sashes) a couple weeks ago, and quickly decided that I'd be better off making new double casements to replace them. Can't say I'll miss losing out on the opportunity to glaze all those little panes.zak
"so it goes"
The stuff that I know fo that is called "Fix-All" is tha same as Durham's"RockHard"
That tells me it's a no go. for some one dwon the line who has to repiar that window. won't stick to nothin but wood, not glass
just read what i typed
speel cheek done by the margareeeta methode.
if you have a couple, matbe you to will be ablwe to reedit
wife went grocery chopping with the kids. here by myself and the dog
ii think it's time for another
maybe i shold buy a beer belly, would save trips to the kitchen
maybe I should invent the beer bladder... to save tripps to the ... you get the point...
What I cam up with is a series from products from Custom Building products called Fix-it-all.http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/ProductCatalog/PatchNRepair/FixItAllAllPurposePatchingCompound.aspx?user=diy&lang=enNothing that I would want to use on glazing.
"maybe i shold buy a beer belly, would save trips to the kitchen"I think you are too late.http://www.npr.org/programs/waitwait/See the pic at the bottom of the page on the right.That link is probably only going to be good for that pic for a few days.
Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
I'd kick that guy off any job I was GC on. It may save him time, but that "Fix-all" was never meant for glazing and will not last like glazing compound will. Cutting corners to save time just hurts us all in the end.
Usually the reason why old putty comes out is because moisture has gotten behind the glass and into the wood. I prime the wood, apply the glazing and then paint over it onto the glass some to form a watertight seal.
I have tried the LePage window putty/caulk in a tube. Use the caulk gun etc., latex compound.
DON"T USE IT!
Regular window glazing putty seems to have worked best for me, usually.
Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR Construction
Vancouver, Canada
I've used Dap window glazing in a tube. It has a square tip. I like it--it is fast and usually goes on pretty well.
I do let customers dictate how to do things and what materials to use--I try to talk them into my way, but am not always sucessful. Just about very time I have done it their way though, I have regretted it. Often end up doing it over--my way. I think it would be worth the effort to impress upon the customer that they hired you because you are the expert, if not, they could do it themselves. (I need to follow my own advice!) Guy I work with says he offers to loan them the tools (like tile saw when they think they might like to do the tile themselves) and no one has ever taken him up on the offer.
I was stuck re-glazing windows last november, and switched to the dap-tube glaze.
it didn't look as slick. but cut my time to one fourth, and I could prime it right away.
I would imagine that patching with fixall would be a problem with temp-moisture changes, as not all the glazing would move the same.
My house needs re-glazing, and I think I'll just replace the windows instead. With a heat bill like this winter, it can't hurt.
I haven't heard of "fix all", I would never consider it. Spackle or anything that dries hard will not work outside. I would bet that this stuff wouldn't last a year before flaking off.
mike