My garage / wood shop is going to need a roof soon.
I’m Most definitely going to hire this out, but I would like to be able to at least talk an intelligent game with my roofer. Probably going to hire the guy who did our house last year.
Details:
Wilmington Delaware, single story building.
28′ x 28′, approx 3/8″ pitch from front to back.
I replaced the deck, ( 1/2″ ply) and all the fascia 10 years ago, and had a “TORCH DOWN” rubber? Roof installed. Not the best installation in town, but the best I could afford at the time. The edges / drip caps have been repaired a few times and I’m not interested in fooling with it any longer..
So assuming a clean deck, ( no roof overs) what should I be looking for in a new, almost flat roof?
Torch down, EPDM, Rubber, glue down ???????
Thanks, Bill
Replies
2 possibilities----each would work extremely well
1) EPDM glued down with latex adhesive -----over 1/2" insulboard screwed down with stress plates. your 28x28 dimension means that there will be at least one seam-------- possible 3 seams---which would kind of defeat the seamless aproach. this material doesn't handle foot traffic, thrown or dropped debris, tree limbs etc. all that well------------- but any punctures are easily repaired----if you can find the puncture. Probably a lot of waste and scrap in that dimension(28x28)
2) any of several brands (mule hide, elastoflex from polyglass, Certainteed flintlastic )of self adhering modified bitumen roofing( related to your current torch down)------- Would use a 2 or a 3 ply system, cap sheet over 1 or 2 base sheets. can be any of several colors, handles foot traffic and abrasions well, less scrap and waste----but harder to repair.
which one would be best for YOUR job---would depend on a variety of factors---experience of installers, expected arasian, foot traffic, debris accumulating etc.
Stephen
great! Thanks Stephen.
I'll have no foot traffic except to re-coat if necessary,and any light color would do. I kind of like the 2nd option of layers and less waste. What kind of warranty should I expect, 10 years? More?
bill,
a lot of flat roofing has different warranties-----one of 10 years for residential settings, one of 15 years for commercial settings.
different materials have different advantages and disadvantages----the rubber is great if you have parapet walls and interior drains for instance---with a lot of standing water.
torch down OR SA modified are maybe a better choice in areas likely to collect falling tree limbs,---or broken beer bottles, or thrown rocks and bricks, or chunks of tail pipes off of old cars---any thing rotten stinking kids can throw up there, LOL
I don't find it to be a one size fits all situation
Best wishes, Stephen
Good points. I have always considered torch down more of a indutrial application, because of torch liabilities, appearance, and thickness for walking on to service rooftop equipment. Other than that, I saw it as a way for DIYs to think they could do the same thing a roofer with a kettle and skills could do.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
let's see if I can reply to myself---since the system won't let me reply to Dudley or Slateman
---- slateman----we used to use the "elephant snot " you describe as well, untill our supplier suggested using the white latex----life got better in a hurry then !!!!
I have done a lot of epdm solo, or with one helper ( actually prefer solo to one helper)------- much easier with the latex. I also like that I can buy 1 gallon---or 5 gallon pails of the adhesive----which saves having 4 gallons sitting around going hard---waiting untill next week---or next year.
regaurding the scrap----of course the homeowner will recieve only one price---and he will personally not have to deal with the leftovers----but his price will pay for them. ( and also,possibly crane service)
Unless I am missing something( always possible), I see NO WAY to get a 20x28 ft piece and a approx. 8x28 ft piece out of the same 20x50 roll---with only one seam.
Of course a larger company specializing in flat roofs might stock 20x50's and 10x100s---simplifying the size requirements----but I never would. Regaurdless---this roof is coming off of 2 different expensive rolls---and will be charged accordingly.
One thing nobody mentioned is penetrations---how many pipes/ducts etc. comming through this roof. EPDM does win ,hands down on its ability to handle pipe penetrations etc. ( LOVE the witches hat pipe flashings)
Stephen
Edited 8/9/2005 8:20 am ET by Stephen Hazlett
One thing nobody mentioned is penetrations---how many pipes/ducts etc. comming through this roof. EPDM does win ,hands down on its ability to handle pipe penetrations etc. ( LOVE the witches hat pipe flashings)
I hate those witches hats and termination bar. When we do EPDM (which is as seldom as possible), We use real metal flashings and glue to them.Birth, school, work, death.....................
cu,
I love the witches hats
Hate the term. bar----never use the term. bar
Extra reason to love the witches hat----they make 'em now " peel and stick"----like splice tape with the backing strip.
clean up the area real good----- peel and stick----run a bead of "water cut off"------- put on the pipe clamp---if needed----fantastic.
some jobs you don't even need to open that foul can of splice adhesive.
but the term. bar----hate the f@#$%^& term. bar. I counter flash and inset metal in to the mortar if needed, like a proper job---hate the term. bar
did I mention i hate the term. bar?????
Stephen
I think of torch down as a fifteen year roof without excessive maintainance.
EPDM is the only answer you need to know - find a reputable, experienced installer.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks Piffin,
Does EPDM require the aluminum roof coating every few years?
"Does EPDM require the aluminum roof coating every few years?"No. It shouldn't need any coatings at all. And the aluminum coating is bad for it.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
If you decide to use rubber, aka EPDM,make sure that the quote is for a fully adhered system of .060 membrane,not .045.
If your roofer uses 20 foot rolls then you would have one horizontal seam,but it would be near the high end and will pose no problems.
The bonding adhesive shouldn't be latex though.Make sure to ask about your perimeter metal work so that you understand what it entails-sounds like that has posed problems for you before.
The roofer will quote the work and do the install so waste of material won't concern you directly-their short and narrow pieces will be used on another project.
My vote is for a fully adhered .060 membrane on a mechanically fastened 1/2" high density fiberboard substratr.
slateman-------
out of curiosity
what do you see as a problem with the latex adhesive.
we have been using it for about 5 years now----and love it. Love the increased workability and slower grab, love the decreased wrinkles, love the clean-up factor----and the final bond is stronger than the fiberboard it's glued to. the only downside we have found is that it doesn't work well on metal----and so we use the old contact cement there.
regaurding the scrap rubber.
the customer will almost certainly be charged for at least a full 20x50 roll----maybe more.
on his 28x28 roof---the first" bottom piece is easy---20x28 approx.---but there is no way I see offthe top of my head to get the next piece approx. 8 x28 out of the remainder of that roll---without 2 seams. might be simpler and better to just do it with 3 strips/2 seams of 10" wide rubber( 10x100---we would end up with less scrap)
at any rate---- I would be charging them for MORE than a full roll----those oddball sizes are annoying to keep around in the shop----you might use it next week----OR maybe 3 years down the road----either way it's a pain to keep 'em around for "just the right spot". frequently---they get " stored for a year or so---then tossed out of frustration.
the .o60 is a great idea though. ( as long as somebody else carries it up the ladder. LOL)
Best wishes, Stephen
I only use the old highly flammable solvent based "elephant snot" as field adhesive.Most all the big roofing co's here do the same-although I'm a two man show.
The yellow glue isn't meant for "felt stripping" or doing your edges with neoprene -the black glue is meant for that application.
His roofer is going to give him a price to do the complete job with clean up.My point about waste was that the homeowner won't have to deal with it-his roofer will lay it up the way he chooses and take care of any excess materials.
There will most likely be "snot" left over as well which they'll use on a subsequent job-same goes for neoprene.
One price-roof done-thank you very much
Today I discovered a disadvantage to the latex adhesive.This roof isn't as flat as the past ones I've done, a 2 in 12 easy.I spread the adhesive and then got behind the roll and rolled it out.Everything worked great except that every time I stepped on the rubber, my foot slid downslope just enough to push a wrinkle into the rubber.My hand, my knee...I ended up "brooming" it laying out flat on top and rolling to move around.What a pain.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
The latex is made to be compliant with VOC standards-not because it's an improvemnent to the real thing.Look at Rich's prior post.
You seem to be hung up on the waste issue.My impression was the owner wanted a leakproof roof-the roofers will take care of the dimensions and how to cut for advantage.
Look at the waste when you sheath a house with plywood.
Are you using the primer for your peel and stick boots?
Lets see If I can respond---and get THIS post through---last one didn't make it.
slateman----- i mention the scrap----because it's ONE of several factors I would personally need to evaluate on site before I would recommend one material over another for a flat roof.
In my area there is a fairly common design on some 80 plus year old houses---with a bump out off the back kitchen. Any number of times I will have roofed a house on one side of the street----and virtually the same house across the street----but I will use different materials on both houses after weighing the factors involved----because one size does not fit all.
even when choosing modified bitumen----I have sometimes chosen 1 brand over another based on the size of the rolls( some brands are a little shorter but a little wider---and that difference may save a course---and a seam.
the problem Rich Beckman had----was not a problem with the adhesive----it was the fact that he rushed into the install a FEW minutes to early----or that he rolled on TOO MUCH adhesive ---or that he coated the rubber AND the deck----also possibly that he was gluing to osb or plywood and not fiberboard.--- there are some tricks to it---like any other material or procedure.
I am a very amatuer woodworker.
Last year I built a prototype table---out of cherry---with some slate inset in the top.
this year I am making 3 more tables---essentially the same design----but a few modifications----but one table is cherry, one is quarter sawn white oak, and one is using some tiger maple.
I did this on purpose to learn about the characteristics of some different woods. I knew I would learn some lessons----but I didn't know WHICH lessons would come up along the way.
The prototype in cherry had a mitered top---which worked GREAT in the cherry----but this year I switched to a breadboard top---- first table completed is again cherry----even better figure than the prototype----but a breadboard top in cherry lacks a certain elegance that last years mitered top had-----HOWEVER----it will look fantastic in the quarter sawn white oak.
It's like that for roofing materials as well------- the same material will not work as well in all situations( designs)----the situation will determine the best material for that specific situation.
so--- I am not gonna make a blanket statement like " EPDM is the best"------ it might be the best for one situation----maybe not the best for a slightly different---but similar situation tommorrow.
difficult to determine over the internet
Best wishes-----gotta go pack for Calvins-------and friday I deliver this years slate topped table( in cherry) as a wedding present in PA. ( my wife hates to see it go----she likes THIS years version---better than last years------but---she gets to keep the white oak table nad the tiger maple table
Best wishes, Stephen
Stephen
Edited 8/10/2005 7:41 am ET by Stephen Hazlett
"the problem Rich Beckman had----"I'm relieved that is in the past tense."was not a problem with the adhesive----it was the fact that he rushed into the install a FEW minutes to early----"This is nearly certain to be the problem. I didn't know I should wait. Since it was very hot out, I was in a hurry to roll the rubber out before the glue dried!"or that he rolled on TOO MUCH adhesive ---"Possible, but I wouldn't put any money on this. I was very conscious of the fact that more is not better."or that he coated the rubber AND the deck----"Nope. That is one of the great advantages of the latex, the rubber stays cleanly rolled up until the glue is ready!"also possibly that he was gluing to osb or plywood and not fiberboard."Nope. I know better than that!!Thanks.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
only need to know 4 letters EPDM, and .60 thickness. 20 foot roll will only leave one seam, never needs coating or fussing with -- .60 should last 50-60 years -- it is maintenance free -- it just sits there and does what you expect it to do -- well worth every penny. I have done 3-4 myself and it is the best on a commercial job -- good to hear that you will not need to walk on it as the less you do the longer it lasts. -- all the best -- Dudley
Gentlemen,
Thank you all for your help.
Does any one know how to "Reply to all"???
Any how, I called my roofer and he will be coming by to look things over. it turns out he's a big fan of EPDM also.
Thanks, Bill
>> Does any one know how to "Reply to all"?To reply to ALL, you have to be in Advanced View. Look at the bottom of the message reading frame. If you see a line that says something like, "Is this too complicated? Switch to Basic View," then you're already in advanced view. If you see a link that says, "Advanced View," you're in Basic View and you can switch to Advanced View by clicking on the link. You can also switch to Advanced View in the Preferences window, which you can reach by clicking on your name or on the MY FORUMS button.Once you're in Advanced View, the To: line in the message composition window is a pulldown menu, and ALL is the second menu item.
COOL!!!!
Thanks!
since i dont know much... i have a general question for anyone interested in replying
is 3/8" pitch enough for water runoff on 28'?
thanks
oak