Hey cement types. Does any body have a standard of performance/warrente in flat work.
Say if I was doing flat work is there a warrente that I would be or could offer?
I would think that I could offer a 3 year agains cracks and failure. Or maybe a 5 year say at a 20% premium, make sure all details were taken care of, extra steel where needed, strict cure scedule ect.
Any thoughts??????
Opps Guarantee
Edited 7/16/2004 9:11 am ET by Clay
Replies
It seems to me that you could be setting yourself up for some expensive fixes or some nasty homeowners who wanted to take advantage of your ethic. There are so many variables in concrete, not the least of which is the quality of the mud that comes from the batch plant.
This past winter I was at a mono-slab pour that looked great. The guy poured about a 5" slump of 6000 psi concrete and the finish work was beautiful. The slab was covered in plastic and then concrete blankets. The slab was uncovered during the day. Then the HO, who was picky, but reasonable, noticed that there were little bug holes EVERYWHERE in the slab. The pump company came out and met with Lafarge and the flatworker. No reasonable explanation could be found. So the HO gets free concrete, and I don't think the flatworker was hurt. But if he'd had some sort of guarantee...
I guarantee it will get hard, and it will crack. That's my flatwork guarantee.
>>I guarantee it will get hard, and it will crack. That's my flatwork guarantee.
What? You won't guarantee it's heavy? {G}
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
well I garuntees I can't spell.
Well I'm just thinking some sort of middle ground.
After Having some flat work subbed for me recently I'm just so pissed. Its been 2 months and I tried to help slow the cure but there were just stuppid mistakes that the C man did that were ingnorant.
I was trying to banter with him a little to see what he Knew, but after awhile all he seemed to know was that he would guarantee that it woluld crack. Well I don't mind that- I just want it to crack where I want it to . I also asked him if he knew where cement came from? I guess that should of been the message to me to send him back to school. His Answer???????? We ought to have a contest to see who can guess his answer.
So maybe well have to at least have a check list of Items that have to be performed before the C truck arrives. Like keep the fkin stakes out of my sprinkler run-oh and the pvc has a foot sticking out as a reminder or he just wanted to shut up the smart a$$
Can't say I'd be offering any warranties unless there was no other way. Get a lawyer to word it. On commercial jobs an independent concrete engineer will come and check slump as well as take samples that later will be tested and some kept on file for future reference. Unless you are in charge of excavation, compaction, drainage and mix your own, I'd be careful about promising something that could involve jack hammers. With all the communications, heat tubes and other utilities that often go in slabs I'd be extra careful.
Like my dad told me...
"There are 2 kinds of concrete...The kind that cracks and then the kind that cracks."
Cheers!
darkmagneto
He was close but there are 3 kinds and #3 is
The kind that fkn cracks
What do they mean by "slump?"
Slump is a measure of stiffness of the mix as delivered. Imagine a small steel megaphone, open at both ends, with about a 3" diameter at the small end, and perhaps 9" at the other. Stand it up on a flat board, large end down. Fill it up to the top with mix from the truck, trowel off the excess and strike off the top, then use the handle on the side and lift straight up. Measure how far down the pile "slumps" from the top of the megaphone. That is the slump.
Slump cones are a standard size, and are often carried in the cab of the delivering truck.
For maximum strength, the mix should be as stiff as is practically workable for the type of pour. Too much water equals poor 'crete.
Thanks ...figured it had something to do with flow...but couldn't quite see how it was measured...
doesnt have anything to do with flow but with slump.
Clay
Few finishers here give warranties. But there is a difference between a guy that can finish concrete and a guy that can lay concrete.
Relief cuts have a formula to assure the slab cracks within the score. You don't just trowel a mark in the top 1/4". The rebar is purposeful because of size and placement more than quantity.
All three of your photos shows the person knows nothing about why you score or where you score the concrete.
While I don't get written warranties for the reasons others here have said I use highly skilled concrete craftsmen.
This isn't picking on you. It's my way of saying concrete is more about what's under the surface then what's on top.
What I'm saying could be said about painters for example. Everyone can paint but not everyone is a painter.
>>All three of your photos shows the person knows nothing about why you score or where you score the concrete.
Please elaborate...........I'd like to learn something.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
joint wasnt cut deep enough and it will alway crack on a corner. Joint has to be minimum 1/3 thickness of slab
Basically what Brownbag said approx 1/3 slab thickness. Some places cracks are unavoidable like the picture at the door or around structural steel that might exit a slab. You might have to score deeper or even pour a separate expansioned area around the object.
Like Obe-Wan said," Embrace the force Luke" You know it's going to crack so accept it and design it to least show.
It just seems to me that perhaps enough credit isn't given to the art of Crete.
The first picture shown was in the center of about a 40' apron with no expansion joint, so in my mind it was like when. Add to it that the relief cuts are like barely a 1" and it's like where. There was no steel so its like how many. It was to much slump/ cause it's easier to work for the 3 man crew, including the boss. It was sealed with a bad worn out sprayer.
It is my theory that it's got to move cause that's the Physics of it, so in understanding the beast is the best insurance to not getting bitten.
This concrete stuff is science, but it is well understood and studied.
Or if you think that you can not control it, do not use it for the icing on your cake.
I know it's hard work but the answer from the "Concrete man" was that it comes from dinosaur crap.
Yep and that's what we got.
He was right, of course.
The dino's did crap,
Then the rains washed it down to the oceans,
where the dissolved nutrients fed the little sea creatures,
and their exoskeltons became the basis for cement.
So, you see, we would not have had the colesseum without Dino
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
As I was looking at the calender dino wasn't crappin yet
Details, details....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You Know we can get the performance of the Crete we want, but only if we change the dollar factor.
It's always coming down to the buck.
So then the real question comes down to how much do your charge for a guaranteed flatwork job.
It's just hurting my head to say that I'm going to work that hard and still have to view the roulette wheel to tell you how it's going to turn out.
My bro is a commercial GC, and has built his share of bigbox stores. Flatwork finishing for those types of jobs is almost always done only by approved placement and finishing subs, picked from the owners' lists.
I don't know about slump or special curing considerations, but I can tell you the flatness of the finishing is expressed in something called "an Fn number," which to us uneducated, means "no puddles or high dry spots will ever be seen."
the main problem with concrete quality is, no matter how hard you try to control cracking, slump, strength and finish. It all ways come down to the high school drop out labor thats too lazy and too hardheaded to listen. It will be him that will totally destroy a good job.
The Roman engineers used various mixes of concrete, with aggregates many of which were volcanic-based. Their special hydraulic-cement-based mixes were used to line the lower halves of the stone aqueduct chambers, so the moving water inside would not abrade the structure.
A crew of between 60,000 and 80,000 people, mostly slaves, built from scratch the Aqua Julia, which brought water to the coastal towns near the bay of Naples, from way up in the mountains around and behind the sleeping volcano, Vesuvius, maybe 65 miles away, in about 16 months.
Get your slump right, or the penalty is death! Usually by some unspeakable means.
Jeez, glad I'm finally gettin' credit fer somethin'....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
The causes of the crack that is pictured next to the joint is obvious to me. The concrete was place and then there was a pause, more was placed and the adjacent pieces cannot join because of different curing times. The added joint was done without any consideration to how it was poured.
I talked with the finisher, one of the three crew. He had been doing crete for 23 years, plus by the city code at least one member of the crew has to be certified. Which he was. But I was kind of disappointed cause he pretty much didn't feel the classes that he had attended were of much value. As I had gone over some info with him he said yada yada yada that's the stuff they went over in the classes but you know I don't rely on that cause I know what I'm doing.
I think that remember that a few years ago that there where a number of areas with problems with concrete drives splading and cracking and that there was a lot of finger pointing over it.
And if I remember correctly some local/state/national home builders associations and/or concrete associations came out with some perfromacne or construction standards.
Not exaclty a guarantee, but if you did not use those standards and there was a problem then the finger of fate was pointed to you.
Don't have time to do a search for those.
You guys got it all wrong...
The saying is:
There are 2 kinds of cocrete:There is concrete that is cracked....and there is concrete that is gonna crack.
I'll have to remember Mr T's warranty "won't blow away" !!!LOL!!!
and the fire and theft thing....
Matt
Edited 7/18/2004 5:25 am ET by DIRISHINME
then there's the kind that has'nt cracked yet
We usually gaurantee that it won't blow away.
Mr T
Happiness is a cold wet nose
Life is is never to busy to stop and pet the Doggies!!
My guy always gaurantees against only two things with his flatwork,
Fire & theft & thats only after a 28 day cure time!
My buddy guarantees all of his slabs...........
against fire and theft.
Hanley
I remember reading over at JLC forums a guy who frequents there and testifies as an Xpert witness in court claims about concrete.
He said that all concrete is gauranteed to crack sooner or later and has often so stated. Can't remeber his name but maybe a search with the right keywords over there would turn up the right thread
My crete guy doesn't like to do slabs because he is too much of an admitted perfectionist. but he is giving up all the crete that he can't be the one doing all the site prep too. Improper base, drainage, and compaction do as much to damage flat work as poor workmanship of bad deliveries do.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!