I’m remodeling my own kitchen. At the same time a good local carpenter is doing some other work on my house. He advises me to install my kitchen cabinets first, then install the hardwood floor. His reason: the floor can hide small gaps resulting from levelling the cabinets.
I am doing the kitchen myself and making the cabinets myself so I can just do whatever I want but I have learned over the years that it is best to not ignore the advice of people who know what they are talking about. However this may be an area where I could get several difference opinions. (If you guys are anything like the engineers that I work with every day I could get several opinions from one person.) :^)
My original plan was to install flooring first. Part of the reason is that I plan to build the cabinets as I did the last time I did a kitchen about 10 years ago. I built a “plinth” on the floor first – a 4-sided box as tall as the toe-kick scribed to the floor and screwed down. This was pretty easily levelled up by itself and was the “foundation” for the cabinet boxes mounted on top of it. The cabinets are then made with flat bottoms and can be screwed to cross-pieces that form the top of the plinth.
It was a long time ago that I did this on my old kitchen and I don’t remember where I learned the method. I doubt that I dreamed it up myself so maybe it’s an accepted way of building and installing custom cabinets?
Anyway, pardon my rambling but I thought some background would be helpful.
My real question is this: Is there an overwhelming opinion one way or the other about whether to build the floor around the cabinets or build the cabinets on top of the floor?
Thank you.
Replies
flooring first everytime, i've installed cabinets for almost 20 years, and have scribed miles of toekick and endpanels to suit
How do you scribe toekick? It seems to me that there is no room to put it to scribe, or it doesn't go all the way up.
If it's hardwood, I install it before the cabinets. If it's sheet goods, I install the cabinets first.
About the built up toe kick - for a 36" high countertop, you get three cuts from a 96" sheet of plywood. That's the reason I've always thought it made sense to set the boxes on the toe kick, and to have a toe kick on any finished ends.
Well, I can't claim to have the best answer to this but my method the one other time I did this was to make the toe kick out of lengths of plywood. I cut a strip of pw about 5" wide, set it up on 2" blocks on the floor in exactly the place I planned to install it, levelling the top by shimming the blocks. Then I set the scribe for 3" and scribed away. After cutting to the scribe line I ended up with a toe kick 4" high. I did this all the way around the rectangle that describes the base of the cabinets (all 4 sides) and built a box out of the pieces. Before assembling the box I routed a groove 3/8" down from the top edge to accept 4" strips of pw that go across tbe box to form a strip top that I could screw the cabinet boxes into. I put glue blocks in the corners and here and there along the length and screwed them to the floor.
This subject has been brought up many times and usually with pretty even split of opinions. I have done both ways and don't have a strong prefference - depends on flooring and layout.
One thing I would caution about - if you put the cabinets in first and then the floor - make sure you raise the cabinets enough that you can still slide the dishwasher into place. If you are having a dishwasher.
Ooo. Good point. My first kitchen didn't have a dishwasher but this one does. Thanks for pointing that out.
When you're figuring out the clearance for your dishwasher, add a little (1/2" - 3/4") for the insulating "blanket" that wraps around the top and sides of the dishwasher.
The "minimum" dimensions in the manufacturers spec sheet don't usually include the blanket and it can get messed up pretty easily if you try to squeeze it in.
We do the flooring first. By the way we do the base the same way when we build our own cabinets (probably 30% of the time).
I am sure both methods will work, and I certainly do not want to start an arguement, but our sucess has come form installing cabinets first. As has been posted, an account of appliances (dishwasher / fridg / icemaker / trash compactor / etc.) must be made prior to final cabinet elevations.
That said, we build new homes and install cabinets first to reduce traffic on the floors. Trim carpenters / countertop subs / plumbers / electricains / painters / tile subs (we do lots of tile backsplashes with granite tops) / etc. will be working over the floor to finish the room. flooring is one of the last things we do.
Perhaps it is not a real problem with real hardwood, as the sand and finish process will take care of most problems. Other flooring may be damaged by a dropped tool, spilled PVC glue or primer, spilled paint or stain, etc., screws or nails that get tromped, etc. The problems can be serious.
Also really good points. In my case, I'll have nobody to blame but myself for damaging the floors until next year. At that time I plan to have a freiplace built in the room and I'm sure the masons will trash the place and I'll have to start over. (Just kidding. Well ... half kidding.
I'll give my .02. I have done it both ways also, but hardwood goes in first 99% of the time. It is too hard to install HW floors with cabinets in the way. If your concerned about out of level toekick check the subfloor now and see what your up against. On the other side if tile goes down I would rather put cabinets in first that way if I need to screw anything to the floor it is easier. Then again the tile installer always wants to install tile before cabs says it makes his job easier. Funny thing he was running tile all the way to the walls behind cabs and charging per sq/ft so maybe he had a two-fold motive.
It has been mentioned check DW, trash compactor and refridgerators SubZero's can be a tight fit if flooring goes in after cabs.
Jeff
SOP for my contractor is to lay floor, 3 coats (first diluted 50/50), stay off it for 48 hours then protect. Plastic (looked to be about 4 mil, but had a more "papery" texture than normal PVC) with decent overlap and tape at all seams, then heavy cardboard (Ram Board - uncorrugated, comes in rolls) taped at all seams, then 1/4" tempered hardboard in traffic or risk areas. Once everything is done a final screed and final coat of poly (again, no traffic for 48 hours).
Flooring first... Then cover the floor to keep from scaring the new floor.
floors first. What if, down the road someone wants to put larger or smaller cabinets and you have an exotic rare hardwood floors that are only up to the cabinets that you are installing NOW?
That was part of my reasoning at the outset. But I have to admit that I can't stay super convinced on this point. The layout of the kitchen is not too controversial as far as I can see. We did the best we can with it and maybe it's just a lack of imagination on my part but I can't see a whole lot of alternatives. Also, the island will have a downdraft vent poking a large hole through the floor so any attempt to relocate that will result in serious floor repair. There's one other 12' run of base cabinets that is puctuated by the sink plumbing so the same applies there. I suppose someone might decide to open up part of that run of cabinets but that wouldn't leave much.
Still, I think I'm going to lay the floor first. My main reason is that I have done it that way once before and I know how to do the cabinets that way. Being an amateur, I find having fewer new things to learn along the way helps me to make fewer mistakes. And I have plenty of opportunity for mistakes here. Plenty.
Thank you all for your responses. It was very helpful. At least knowing that some experienced people do the floor first let's me feel that I'm not already making a mistake with this decision.
Yep. as an old carpenter used to say to me, "it's sex with one and a half a dozen of the others."
Either way will work, I've done it both ways and really have no preference. But as you have been cautioned already: Make darn sure you have 34-1/2 inches from the finish floor to the underside of your countertop for the dishwasher, or you'll be kicking yourself.
Oh and regarding that tired old arguement about "what if you decide to change the cabinet layout some day down the line?" Do you really think that area of the floor beneath the old cabinet that you are imagining you might expose someday will ever come close to looking like the floor that has been stained, sealed, and had sunshine, feetsteps, wear 'n tear, etc. for however many years? No amount of sanding will ever make those two areas look even remottely similar. If the kitchen ever gets the layout changed that much in a future remodel, you're gonna be redoing the floor again as well, regardless.
Your idea of the preset base or 'plinth' is the way I'll do my cabinets. That way the base is dead level and the cabinets can just be boxes without a toekick. Putting the flooring material under the cabinets makes sense because if there's a leak under the sink or DW, you have a ready-made puddle some 3/4" or more deep under all your cabinets. Assuming your subfloor is tight and won't leak for a while, you have all that potential disaster creeping under your flooring materials. At least I know I have a leaky dishwasher, been there, done that, and the puddle crept out from under the cabinets before it could do a lot of damage.
The downside to putting finish flooring under the cabinets is the waste of finish flooring materials.
Another bonus to placing cabinets on top of the FF is that if you ever have to remove them or redo the kitchen and you want to leave the floor, you don't have to try to patch it in.
floor first and use unfinished wood in a kitchen vs. prefinished if wood goes up to cabinets and expands from big humidity jump it can contact cabinet and cause cupping, floor moves up at seams it has to move somewhere also, fastening problem as its harder to shoot finish nails or brads they are on an angle towards toekick instead of vertically placed, not as tight, seams open prefinished tongue & grooves are milled tighter than unfinished to prevent finished product from moving up, down @ seams some humidity increase and cupping results
if dirt from contractors (who us?) is an issue, have floor guy sand before cabinets and apply first two coats of finish return after install and plumber, last coat of finish goes on
I like that idea of putting down the first 2 coats of finish before the cabinet install and the finish plumbing and wiring. Seems like it would keep the wood clean and a light screening would take the scuffs out of that coat as long as nobody stepped on a stray drywall screw or something like that.
Maybe this goes without saying, but...
If by chance you're using a floating floor system, i.e. Pergo, it must go down after the cabinets. This isn't an installation preference, the floor has to float, so it can't be bound under the cabinets.
I built my kitchen in a similar method to yours - my cabinets sit on a recessed riser.
I put the tile in after the cabinet and riser were installed. My method was that I could bring the cut tile close to the riser without needing absoltuely perfect measurtements as the riser would be covered with a finish cherry toekick strip that would overlap and hide the tile edge
I have ceramic tile down in my kitchen that I layed before the cabinets. Now I want to put in a new floor and it's going to be really difficult. Wish I had done the floor last.
Mark
finally get sick of everything you drop breaking? Or was it that business of the floor always being cold on your bare feet?
Seriously though, see if you can rent a toekick saw. It's basically similar to a skillsaw with about a foot long shaft between the motor and the blade. it uses a 4" blade and is made specifically for cutting flooring flush with the face of the toekick. I'm sure you can put a diamond or abrasive blade in one.
Watch out though! you have to grab onto that mother and hold on with all your might or it's gonna rip itself out of your grasp and come after ya.
My old boss owned one. it was made by Bosch. Look up their website so you can get an idea what I'm talking about." If I were a carpenter"