Hi All,
Hope everyone enjoyed their Thanksgiving.
I bought some prefinished solid oak flooring at HD. 3/4 by 3 1/4 with knots and dark streaks, very rustic looking $2.54 a square foot. A special promotion, Centerra flooring. Their unfinished white, HD not Centerra, oak in 2 1/4 is $2.55 by me. I was wondering how they can sell it so cheap and saw made in China on the box when I was unloading it from the truck. Do you think they get the wood from here or some other country and mill it there?
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I am about to install a bunch of Chinese 2 1/4" white oak strip flooring for a customer who purchased one of our homes. They got it at a local lumber yard. It has 7 or 8 coats of nice looking finish on it.
It is beautiful stuff for $3.30 / ft. I'm sure they don't grow white oak in China, so I can't figure out how this works. All I know is, that it's a lot cheaper than other domestic flooring that we've always used.
If they start shipping houses from China, I am in big trouble!
"If they start shipping houses from China, I am in big trouble!"There will be plenty of work in repair and remodeling still!
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I'm sure they don't grow white oak in China, so I can't figure out how this works.
I'm with you. Seems like the cost to ship the logs over and the finished materials back would add more to the price. But then, what do I know? A while back the Japanese were buying up a lot of out PNW timber. They'd put it on a ship, motor out to sea, mill it and then motor back in and sell it back to us - the efficiency of their process vs. our old mills made it work. Go figure.
The logs shipped to Japan DID NOT return to us in finished product with the exception of sliced veneers because, in the USA, only two slicing plants were ever set up. The product in the veneer industry was mostly hardwoods.
But Japan converted most of the wood the imported in log form from the USA to their own domestic use or trade in other parts of the Pacific Rim.
The wood that DID get exported and returned to us in finished products was Doug Fir Clear timbers imported by Italy and Spain and remanufactured into door and window components and, in the case of Spain, to handcarved wooden doors.
I worked in the wood products industry for quite a few years, mostly for a large corporation who was heavy into the log export business to Japan and South Korea, but the notion that we were buying back finished product from Japan is complete BS. At the time all such nonsense was being bandied about, the dollar/yen exchange rate between the US and Japan was on a par and it would have made no economic sense for the Japanese to export back to the US. (It typically cost $385 per MBF just to transport the raw logs and the Japanese were paying nearly triple domestic prices for the logs).
While I was ALWAYS opposed to our wholesale export of our old growth resources to the far East, the propaganda about exporting our manufacturing to Japan was simply a myth promoted by those opposed to exports who resorted to lies and misinformation to rally support for their cause.
Thanks for the clarification - I did wonder about the whole story. I heard it from a park ranger so gave it a little more weight than it merited...
The logs shipped to Japan DID NOT return to us in finished product with the exception of sliced veneers because, in the USA, only two slicing plants were ever set up.
I'm curious which two slicing plants you are thinking of - I know of at least three currently in operation, wondering if they include the two you have in mind.
In the early 90's, I made an attempt to get financing to put in a slicing plant here on the West Coast as I was seeing a lot of our local hardwood species (and some softwoods, like Yew and Port Orford Cedar) going aboard ship as slicing stock for the Far East.
(This was in addition to the 10's of millions of Bd. Ft. we were exporting out of the local port in the form of Old Growth Doug Fir, Port Orford Cedar sawlogs, not to mention a few other PNW softwood species).
I was working with Oregon State University's Dept. of Forestry and they were the ones who told me of the "two" plants; one in Illinois, IIRC' and another in either Tennessee or Ohio.
The Machinery and equipment for support and residuals was pretty expensive (about $1.5 million at the time) plus the cost of purchased or leased ground, utilities, a building, rolling stock and so forth.
I live within 10 miles of an international port, had some potential overseas customers, and have long been involved and tapped into the timber supply end....
But, sigh, the time was not right....the 90's economy was still a bit sluggish and I ultimately moved on to other things.
I laid pre-finished common grade (clear with colour and chatoyance) Birch throughout my house and for a few client's.
The wood was Eastern Canada sourced, sent to China for manufacture and finishing and shipped back here to be sold under the Dubeau label. I paid roughly $3 US for it. Milling was best I've run across and the aluminum oxide modified urethane finish is incredibly tough.
I deal with a lot of Eastern flooring manufacturers.....one of them told me when he was sourcing some material he could get Pennsylvania cherry that had been shipped to China, sawmilled, and shipped back for substantially less than he could get it directly from Penn. That same company though is doing or is going to be doing a lot of milling for a big U.S company, because their quality was so much better than Chinas, and the costs are less and quality better than in their domestic plant.
What I am hearing a lot about is big problems with moisture content in Chinese flooring....like 15 % mc. or so. Be very careful.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
china has some huge hardwood forest, Thet have some pretty good wood, alot of exotic hadwood that does not grow in U.S.
I bought some Dubeau-branded birch prefinished and it was the sweetest stuff. Basically 0% rejects- all boards straight, no flaws. We culled a few boards on colour, that's all. No problems with moisture content etc. The finish has stood up for about four years, through kids and abuse from construction of our addition. The only scratching I've seen has been due to the softness of the birch.
Can't say anything complimentary about the Bruce red oak I installed on the main floor. That stuff was crap, regardless where it was milled and whose major brand-name was on it.
If the Chinese can take the raw wood, mill it and finish it and ship it back here far cheaper than we can merely mill and finish it, reality is that they've got the business. Until fuel prices go up to reflect the full cost of fossil fuels consumption, shipping stuff offshore to where the labour costs are lower is a trend that's here to stay. Just wish they'd keep their @#*()&) long-horned beetles at home, though, or they won't be getting any more local hardwood to mill!
I looked at some "made in China" flooring at HD and noticed the milling on each end of the boards was off. They were about 1/32" to small on the last 3-5 inches. I only noticed this when I put a couple of boards together and went into their tool department to get same bessy clamps. Even under a lot of pressure the gap never tightend up.
An acquaintance owns a lumber outfit in Western NC. Huge kilns for drying local oak and cherry. Sells much of it to China for manufacture of furniture.
As to the quality of the flooring, it's a big country with lots of manufacturing plants. Bound to be a variation in quality. Just like from anywhere else, some will be good and some won't.
good luck..I recently installed a prefinished HW floor that was milled in China. what a nightmare.
you couldn't tell by looking at em, but the boards had varying widths, and it as absolute hell to keep the rows straight. took me more than double the time.
after I had laid about 6' I got the supplier and the store involved. they agreed to put in a claim. the owners really wanted the floor, It is a very dark floor ( wood is Kulim- I think grows in Pilipines or mayasia , then milled in China). Supplier could't gaurantee that a new batch would be the same problem. so we ended up having to sort all the boards we had by widths, in order to get a decent install.
The owners are very happy now, but we are still waiting to see exactly what compensation the supplier give, so far they have only comped and extra 100 sq ft of flooring we ended up short cuz of crappy boards.
This should be interesting because I have never seen Chinese flooring before. I will know by next week how I like it!
I'm out of state right now, be back in Jersey tomorrow. First chance I get I'll be checking it out, dry fit a box and see if there's any problems. Anyone reading this post heard of the brand name, Centerra. No indication what the finish is but does have a 25 year warranty and an address/phone number in USA.
if you go ahead with it will you please let us know how it turns out and how the installation goes. The boards I had were up 1/8 variance. - + 1/16" and some boards even worse. once the boards were sorted we found about 2/3 to be within a tolorable width. the rest had to get worked into the installation.
I'll let you know about the dry fit, the actual install is probably two to four months in the future. I bought it early because I really liked the look, more important the DW did as well and it was a limited time special offer. Actually my local HD was sold out, had to go to the one down the road.
make sure you dry fit mroe than just a couple boards...actually...what you should do as well is open 2 -3 boxes and check the width with a pair of calipers. you might find a very slight width varinace which may be acceptable but one you start getting into the 1/16's and over they accumualte very quickly over several rows.
even if your boards are not perfect you may still want to keep them because you like how it looks and the atractive price, simply be prepared for the extar time to install. just slamming them together, will create big problems if the boards are not uniform.
just got home from virginia and opened a box and did the dry fit. did this before i read your post, there is a slight difference. i want a rustic look so i'm not bothered by it but will plan accordingly when i install it. i put it together on my deck and took pictures which i'll post later. thanks
kevin
Here are the pictures I promised, dryfit on my deck. All from same box. Hopefully I'll be doing the floor in 2-3 months and I'll get back to you with what problems I encountered with milling, if any.
Happy New Year!
Kevin
I see the subject has popped up again. Since I first read this, I have installed about 500 sq. ft. of Anderson Pacific 2 1/4" prefinished oak strip flooring. The homeowners purchased the flooring and I installed it for them. I believe this flooring is milled and finished in China. It is 18mm thick.
I was skeptical at first since this was my first experience with imported flooring. I had to make some adjustments to the Bostitch nailer to accomodate the different thickness of the flooring, but other than that it was no problem.
What was unusual about this flooring was the superb quality. It was well packed with no damage to any piece and I never found anything except high quality, perfect pieces in each box. In 500 feet of flooring, I never found one flaw in any of it. Every piece was perfectly flat, straight, and perfectly milled.
I am impressed!!
Edited 12/28/2006 5:49 pm ET by BoJangles
When I lived on the west coast I saw huge ships come into port and load them with logs. I am not familiar with the product but is it possible that they have ships which take it out 300 miles from the U.S. and mill it?
Bo
I did a remodel back at the beginning of this year that had 1200 square feet of new glued down eng. flooring that came from China. (see attachment)
Like yours, there wasn't one single piece in any of the 60 or so boxes of the stuff that was bad, not one single piece that had any flaws that prohibited it from being used, excellent product all around.
Doug
Nice floor, Nice kitchen!
Looks nice!
Don't forget to space the Butts!
will do! what i did find odd was the lengths, nothing more than 5 feet. perhaps there using wood rejected by american mills?
I wanted to update you on the flooring I installed today. I found alot of varying widths, by as much as 1/16. I've only installed one other floor, which was armstrong, and the quality was much better, more precise. My floor is for our beach bungalow, so I'm not that concerned about the occasional gaps, it's a pretty rustic house to begin with. Thought you'd like to know.
dockelly
Against that I bought some made in China marble at an extremely deep discount from Home depot. (10 cents per sq.ft.) The funny part was the color was exactly perfect for the location. So I would have gladly paid much, much, more.
Anyway I installed it in my entryway, the master bath, and the upstairs master bath. (I bought more than a pallet.) most of it was installed without gaps for grout lines.
It all came out perfectly!
It seems cheating to have marble baths for so little money.
10 cents a sq ft, that is a deal! I love a bargain.
I bought some 3 1/4" solid kempas flooring a few years back for $2.99/sqft. All 36" lengths. It was advertised as having an 8 coat aluminized finish. It has a foil vapor barrier on the back sides and it's all micro beveled and end matched. The boxes said made in china right on them. I installed about 550 square feet of it and so far it's the nicest flooring I've installed. I'm not a flooring guy, but I've installed my fair share of wood flooring and this stuff was perfect. No warped pieces, no checks, no knots. Not everything from china is garbage, just most of it.
I've heard the same from others regarding the quality of the floors they have made in China, my own floor, while not perfect, is still quite acceptable for my application, a rustic beach bungalow. It almost looks to good. I was just commenting on the width differences, something I didn't find with Armstrong. If I ever do it again, I'll sort the floor by width to minimize gaps.
sorting by width does make an big improvement. Just takes time, but is worth it. View Image View Image
Yeah, wish I reread the original post, i'd have done that. Still, finished the floor today and I'm ok with the gaps, whoule house is "gapped". Nothing to serious, adds character. You've seen pictures of my house, right?
don't recall, but looks like there is some character to be had there. How old is your house?
View Image View Image
120 years old, oldest house in Surf City, NJ and one of the oldest on the island.
Sounds like the savings got passed on to you.
It's typical of suppliers to send free boxes of problem flooring. I would not expect any monetary compensation.
Kulim is a beautiful floor. I had to replace 35 boards on one instll after the owners created numerous scratches moving furniture. Yes, they had their new furniture delivered before the construction was finished.
The trouble with a floor that dark is it magnifies every flaw. I saved every board I removed.
"Perfect is the enemy of Good." Morrison
They ship our wood to international waters on a ship owend by china and mill it there. That is how they can get away with a lot of stuff we cant do here. Save us the jobs here in the stated dont buy junk made in china.
my wife and i ordered an entertainment center from Hooker who moved their furniture manufacturing to china. i waited close to 9 months before cancelling. as i said in my post, it wasn't until i got home i read the box and saw where it was made. i try to buy USA whenever possible, ordered lead shielding for my x-ray room and everything came in messed up. when i called the company i waited days for a return call only to learn the company went under. they had been around a long time but the price of lead went up and up with china buying everything and that was it for them. read the book rising sun, was a movie with sean connery.
kevin
Edited 11/26/2006 5:48 pm ET by dockelly
>read the book rising sunWhat's Rising Sun got to do with this?
Absolutely nothing.
While I tend to believe the USA has been weakened by exporting so much of its manufacturing, my observation is that China is much like Japan was in the late 50's-early 60's; exporting inferior goods in the beginning until they evolved their processes to constant improvement in quality, durability, consistency, etc.
While I have no experience with the wood flooring that initiated this discussion, I do have several years experience with Bamboo flooring, all of which I've used has come from China and the quality has been excellent.
Of course, when I've ordered it, I've avoided the lowball stuff; one of my customers insisted on ordering some very low cost bamboo (one of those folks with a butt-load of money but a real unwillingness to part with any of it).
The flooring he got (IIRC about $2.00 or less per sq. ft.), was really soft and easily marred just racking it up in his house. I refused to lay it, leaving him to rent a nailer and do it himself.
I hope the can do flooring better then they can do toothpicks. Since Owen sound started importing toothpicks they're all crossgrain & break off between your teeth. Real crap.
The last batch of Chinese 'birch' flooring I looked at was all 'ramin' the asian hardwood that looks like birch or maple and can't do anything right. "Maple' dowels dry undersize and oval. Maple and white paint windsor dining sets dry out and fall apart. Any number of other furniture I/v seen of the same wood has no strength and breaks down. It's really cheap though. You wouldn't beleive how low the wholesale prices are for fancy looking furniture in the whoesale catalogs the discount furniture retailers use. They could cut their prices in half and still make over 100% profit on the crap. But people want bargains and it does look great..........for a while.
Paul
I'd been planning on making a new set of dining chairs but ran across some from Vietnam retailling for about $60 CDN each. Can't ID the wood but it is hard enough not to dent. Fit and finish is excellent, construction quality is very, very good and I am capable of discerning what is good. Design is very attractive.Nobody can compete with that.
>Absolutely nothing.Ya think in complaining about China, he knows that Rising Sun is about Japan?>Bamboo flooring, all of which I've used has come from China and the quality has been excellent. I've avoided the lowball stuffThat's the whole point. Country of origin doesn't make it good or bad...quality makes it good or bad. Buying cheap risks getting you bad quality no matter where it's sourced. In any other thread, people would be mocked for looking to HD for quality flooring...not that there's anything wrong with that! :)
"Ya think in complaining about China, he knows that Rising Sun is about Japan?"If by "he" you mean me, I both read the book and saw the movie, I know it's about Japan. The story outlined the business tactics by the Japanese which enabled them to take over so many of the manufacturing of products formerly done here. It was a comparison. Did you read the book?
kevin
>Did you read the book?Yup.
I recently installed some 2 1/4 Birch flooring , rustic style. It looked very nice and the owners were very pleased with the look and price $2.99 Sq. ft. This flooring which was made in China was a pain to install. A lot of the pieces were 1/32 " to 1/16" less in width at the ends. And you don't usually notice the difference untill the previous row is nailed down, so you have to rip up the row to replace the piece. It would be impossible to measure it piece with calipers , it would take forever. I would advise anyone to stay clear of this China hardwood untill their manufacturing tolerences are up to North American standards. The problem is that people seem to only look at the price . The going rate for installation where I live is $1.50 Sq.Ft. and if it says made in china on the box then it will be $3.00 Sq. Ft. Now which looks cheaper.
yep....I had same nightmare of an install. ended up short stock from all the boards I had to rip up. the supplier did provide the extra stock in a claim. but that is about it. they also offered to take back all the product incuding 100 sq ft I already had down, with the owners choosing a higher priced product. ( $4.85 vs $10.00 CND) but the owners wanted and like the look of the what they had. I got the owners to sort thru every single board with the calipers. took her whole weekend to sort thru about 1000 sf.
And after the garbage piles up on the ship Iam sure they bring it back to land and dispose of it properly...no?? hahahahaha. Unfortunetly americans shop price. I do. What are our options? stinky
The Chinese don't play by the same economic rules. If it's a government-sponsored business initiative the cost of materials is secondary, employing lots of people is the main concern. Hey, wait a minute, that's how our government spends money too!
Seriously, a good Marxist only values the human labor needed to produce a product. Everything else belongs to the state and is "free".