Does anyone know what will dissolve cured gun foam?
I want to salvage a gummed up Pageris foam gun. The problem is the ball valve which is on top of the gun under the foam can. On many guns, it is removeable for cleaning – not the Pageris. They don’t simply sell parts either. They want you to trade in a plugged-up gun on a factory rebuilt, but I’d rather throw it away if I can’t fix it myself. Their cost is too high and I know this will happen again.
Also, I have a gun which can be easily dismantled for proper cleaning, so I don’t need the Pageris.
The part is soaking in gasoline right now. I know what gas does to styrene foam and I had some hope it would do the same for this stuff. It doesn’t. Acetone gun cleaner does nearly nothing to cured foam either.
Ron
Replies
U are SOL, if you can't dismantle the gun. I have used acetone to loosen up things enuf that I can pry and scrape them loose for guns I can take apart, and parts cleaner, but still need that mechanical action.
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Piffin,
I suspected as much, but it's no big deal if I do throw it away.
Advise anyone who asks - don't buy a Pageris foam gun.
Ron
I end up throwing my take down guns away eventually too.Reasoning is that after a couple major cleanouts, I end up with scratcches inside so things never seat well again, and it takes a ood hour to clean a gun that I can replace for c.$40.00
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I agree. A Pageris foam gun is an expensive PO Junk. The $40 all metal ones are much better and you can take them apart and clean them if necessary.
I have taken to cleaning my guns out after every use if they are going to be unused for a few weeks. The type of foam you use makes a big difference in how easy they are to keep clean too.
I use PUR FILL spray foam in areas where I want the rigid foam and adhesive qualities of the foam. A good example would be around a doorway or maybe the sides and bottom of a window to hold it in place. This type of foam is very quick drying and hard to clean off of your gun ( or hands ). I clean the gun immediately after using this stuff. In fact I carry a rag soaked with mineral spirits and keep wiping the gun as I use it.
Other types of non-rigid foam such as Great Stuff can be cleaned much easier and will disappear in a second when exposed to acetone.
BTW, If you are getting tired of spending $6 for a can of acetone cleaner, just take an old can and drill a hole about 3/8" diameter in the center of the bottom of the empty can. Pour some acetone in the can and connect it to your gun. Give it a little air pressure from your air hose while holding the gun open and it will give you a good cheap flush in a few seconds. You can also use the squirt nozzle to clean out the top of the foam can.
After the gun is cleaned out, I shoot it full of motor oil or ATF (whatever is in the oil can) and it keeps everything lubed up and ready to go the next time.
Edited 11/28/2009 12:32 pm ET by BoJangles
Yrs ago I had one of those. I figured a way to disassemble it. LIke Piffin said - it's a mess & you tend to scratch mating surfsces. Wish I could recall how I did it, but that slips my mind. now.
I looked at it as "It went together from a pile of parts, it has to come apart!" And it did. but it weren't easy!
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
I'm on my second pageris in about 5 years. I never clean it. Only time it clogged was when i Left the valve open for a long time. Threw it away and got a new one. I've tried the cheapies available at the store. The tip is fat and clunky and doesn't have very precise flow or placement control. I prefer the pageris.
mmoogie
When the Pageris works, it works very well. So does the repairable one I got as a replacement, which is not one of the cheapies.
A replacement Pageris would cost me $70. The one I have now is my second. It probably had only two cans of foam through it when it failed. What kind of fool wopuld go that way again when the tiniest fleck of dirt blowing into the gun when you change cans can cost $70?
The ball valve on the Pageris seems to be installed with solder or, more likely, some kind of metallic adhesive, where the ball valve in the other is retained with a hollow allan screw.
Ron
>>What kind of fool wopuld go that way again?<<I guess I'm a fool.I've paid 140 dollars for two guns in more than five years...probably more like ten...I haven't really kept track. I don;t baby them. I'm notoriously hard on my tools. I just haven't had the problem that you have had.
I've had good luck with the Hilti guns. Leave a can on for months with no problems, until this year. (Gun about 8 yrs. old) I think the clog came from leaving an empty or nearly empty can on the gun.
Bought a new one, and the Hilti rep told me to put a can of cleaner on the old gun, wrap rubberbands around the trigger and stick it in a jar or can and wait for it to clean itself out. At about a hundred a pop for the gun, I thought it was worth a shot on a can of cleaner. Haven't tried it yet, but I'll report back.
I rarely used the cleaner on the old gun. I always let the stuff harden on the outside of the tip, and scraped off the foam with an old pocket knife I keep in the case at the next use.Bear
The Hilti gun is a Pageris gun re-branded. When a can is getting near empty on my gun and I know I won't be using it again for awhile, I'll find something to gun it out into or just swap the can out even though it's not totally empty. I avoid using steel tools to clean the tip. Any little nick on the plunger at the tip of the nozzle can cause it not to seal completely and then your days are numbered. I scrub the old dried foam off the tip by rubbing it on the end-grain of a scrap of wood.
mmoogie
I wasn't implying that I think you are a fool, man. I was talking about myself. I did the same as you, I bought one Pageris gun, then a replacment for it for a total cost of nearly $180 to run maybe 50 cans of foam.
If I was a fool, I'd buy a third one.
The repairable tool has out-performed the two Pageris guns twice over and promises to last a long time yet.
Ron
Got a link or a name on the repairable brand that you buy? The ones in the stores here are pretty clunky.Steve
mmoogie,
I'm sorrry, I don't. All it says on it is "Made in Italy" I don't even remember any markings on the box, Want a pic?
This is pretty clunky too, really.
View Image
I've used the Great Stuff brand gun. I think it was the #13 (the cheapest one). Something like $25-30. Actually, this is the only gun I've ever purchased, but it seemed to work well.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
i soaked one in MEK whatever that is... i know we use it to clean bare metal before painting.... and after a very short time there was no sign of the foam that was all over the gun... i was able to spray cleaner through it after that...
p
mek.....methyl-ethyl-ketoneMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
ponytl
Does MEK eat all plastic? The ball in the ball valve is plastic.
Thanks. This sounds hopeful.
Ron
Methyl ethel ketone is very close to being an illegal chemical compound. That being said it eats just about anything except PL Premium..... You really should use an organic vapour respirator if you are going to use it. I have some if you want to try it.
Edited for spelling
On a hill by the harbour
Edited 11/29/2009 8:52 am by Novy
Edited 11/29/2009 8:54 am by Novy
Novy,
I'll take you up on that. I was thinking I'd try it outdoors with a chem mask on. I can't bear to get too near to MEK. Instant headache. I think it's found in some polyurethane caulking too. like Mulco Flex.
Ron
Hmmmmmmmmmm? I wonder if it would break down polyurethane?
I will have to get over to my lock up in Burnside to find it.
On a hill by the harbour
where would one look to buy it?
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I think I bought it from my chemical paint supplier. I will make some calls tomorrow. Maybe IMERC will chime in because we used some at his place earlier this year.
On a hill by the harbour
yer up
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have a fair quanity of it left over from the days of extensively working on polycarbonates...
Lowes use to sell it...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Edited 11/29/2009 10:45 am by IMERC
IMERC
Do you mean polycarbonate glazing? What do you do with MEK in relation to polycarbonates?
Ron
as in Balistic Lexan...
polycarbonate is nick sensitive... after cutting, tooling, machining, etc the cuts need to be sealed.. MEK and or MEC fuming does that... turns the machined edge into a smooth clear surface
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Besides using MEK I used a lot of MEC...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
What is MEC?
On a hill by the harbour
methol ethyol cloride...
really up the nasties list...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Big boxes may still sell it. I bought a gallon from HD. Also check auto paint stores.Read the safety hazards. I don't get it on my skin, or use it inside. It's also highly flammable.
Edited 11/29/2009 10:44 am ET by Dam_inspector
i believe yur right...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Lowes here has MEK in quart cans.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
soaked one in MEK whatever that is...
very nasty stuff, will kill just about anything. Be careful.
State regs drive the availability of MEK. Got it here too but I'm pretty sure you won't find it in CA.
Used to use MEK a lot when I worked on aircracft, it cuts just about everything (esp jet fuels) doesn't leave a residue so good for wiping down prior to painting or applying sealers. Also used it to cut the sealers at times.
I wonder how much of an exposure to it you need to have damage? Probably liver and kidney issues from it but from all of us that were using it in those volumes you'd think there'd be a high concentration of health issues among the group but there were none that I ever heard of. My generation was taking at least minimal precautions with it but the older guys... and still no massive die off of the retirees.
"Probably liver and kidney issues "Yeah, like benzene, but also suspected but unproven with a lot of plastics and other petrocarbons is nerve damage. I wonder sometimes if at least a part of the fibromyalgia I deal with and the similar nerve problems Duanne has are related to caulks and chemicals used on the jobs over the years. Firfighters who get exposure to those chemicals or broken down versions in smoke eating work sometimes suffer weird dieases of the central nervous system.I recall using a particular caulk once for weeks on end. It did smell strong, and said to use only in a "well ventilated area" I figured that since I was up on a roof with the wind blowing, that was cool.My partner and I started noticing flu-like symptoms each week by Thursday PM, and then fine again by monday in a consistant cycle.Finally one week, on friday, he was going to pick my up at my place. I "slept" late. Actually from my POV, I was in a dark place with no body. As I came to, I gradually was re-entering my body, and eventually found it and got it functioning again. As I sat up on the edge of my bed, thinking it was about 6:30 when I was normally rising, I looked out and saw my partner with the ops, getting ready to come break in and find a body - mine! It was lose to ten o'clock and he had been pounding on the door, then looked in the bedroom window and pounded some more...That is when I learned about MDSsheets. This caulk had plenty of benzene and some other long winded chemicals in it, and mentioned liver damage as a likely concern with long term exposure.....
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With chemicals like benzine and MEK, there's a lot of variation from one person to the next in terms of their tolerance. In some people even minute amounts of the chemicals get into the mitochondria and gum them up.
This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in. --Theodore Roosevelt
This discussion is now reminding me of the carbon tetrachloride Dad used to bring home from work for us to play with....That was a pretty toxic cleaner too IIRC
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reading the MSDS sheets of MEK & Benzene at http://www.sciencelab.com/ they kinda look the same until you hit the exposures limts shown in section 8... Benzene is kinda mean. How long ago were you using the caulk with the benzene in it?
almost thirty years ago.
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Piffin,
What was the name of that caulking?
I want to know so I won't even go into a store that sells it.
Ron
It was a GE silicone with AL in it. Proprietary recommended for Alcoa shingles - the ones that are stamped out to look like shakes like used on Pizza hut , 'cept these were brown and on condos.
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I'm on my 2nd Great Stuff gun. I ungummed the 1st one by taking it apart, but I'm pretty sure I managed to tear up the ball check where you thread the can on. Thus, gun #2. I was using a pick to try to get the cured foam out.
I think I've read here where someone took a torch to one of the metal guns and basically burned off the foam crusted around the ball check. Have no idea if this would actually work.
Some brush cleaners contain MEK (along with other stuff). You just have to go to the paint-remover/brush-cleaner aisle and start reading labels.
I have tried just about every solvent known to man to dissolve cured polyurethane - no go.
Methyl ethyl ketone (MEK) was one I didn't try. They do sell it out here at places like Home Depot, Lowe's and most paint stores.
Methylene chloride, trichloroethylene, ... all the good stuff is not generally available but would not likely help. Read on.
I called the company who makes the polyurethane glues (Bull Glue and Gorilla Glue)and asked the engineers there if there was a way to remove it. I offered solvents, fire and several other options. He said there were no known solvents for the cured material. Heat would just melt it and when it cooled off, it would likely be even more adherent and charred.
I didn't try freezing it off but I don't think even liquid nitrogen would work. It would probably destroy the substrate, though. I say that because I used to use the foaming urethane as pour-in-place insulation for our liquid nitrogen supply lines.
I ended up using my angle grinder to grind it off. That worked - barely. The stuff was bonded to each and every grain of sand in the concrete and to the matrix material between each grain.
You might try heating it up and wiping the molten urethane away with a rag. If you have plastic parts, obviously, this approach won't work.
Edited 11/30/2009 4:16 pm ET by Mike_Mills
Mike,
I'll try a heat gun as an experiment.
So brush cleaner is MEK, is it? I have a can of Dynamic Kwik Clean, but I can't find out anything about it except that it contains naphtha. The label says it will damage plastic.
Thanks,
Rin
naphtha is very close to benzine...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Naphtha is basically white gas. Not that close to benzine.
This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in. --Theodore Roosevelt
Right.
Xylol and Xylene are some nasties I have used. As well as EB, and DB ( Diabasic ethers)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
I used to play a xylene, but my parents took it away from me.
This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live in unless we make it a reasonably good place for all of us to live in. --Theodore Roosevelt
It was for the best I'm sure.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
benzene
"Potential Acute Health Effects: Severe over-exposure can result in death.The substance may be toxic to blood, upper respiratory tract, central nervous system (CNS).
Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage. Repeated exposure to a
highly toxic material may produce general deterioration of health by an accumulation in one or many human
organs."Xylene
"The substance may be toxic to blood, kidneys, liver, mucous membranes, bone marrow, central nervous system
(CNS).
Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage"Xylol"The substance may be toxic to blood, kidneys, liver, mucous membranes, bone marrow, central nervous system
(CNS).
Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage."
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and for the sake of education here's a start on the how-to's on reading the colored Fire Diamond and the HazMIS Rectangles for the MSDS and other labels. These labels are kind of a quick ref with the detaisl being on the MSDS sheets.
I used to know this stuff in a prior life. It sure does drop of the memory chip fast when you don't use it often.
View Imagehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazardous_Materials_Identification_System
View Imagehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFPA_704
"It sure does drop of the memory chip fast"Load in more RAM to help find it again.
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That is basicly the Great Stuff Pro 14 gun.
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.