I built a house on the beach in Southern California about 10 years ago. It is an extremely corrosive environment due to fog and salt spray. The vinyl windows (Sierra brand) were large dual glazed view windows. Every window facing the ocean has failed and is perpetually fogged up. The aluminum spacer between panes is corroded.
Is there a repair technique so I can fix the fogging problem. I have been unable to find a glazer to just replace the glass. Exterior access is a problem and repair of the stucco will be difficult.
Thanks, Eric
Replies
My oh my, my favorite subject (aka my first post here years ago)
First, welcome as I see this is your first post.
MY oh my, my favorite subject -- the subject of my first post here years ago when I got a razzing for being so cheap I'd eat roadkill (keeping a 'vittle kit' in the truck is another story)
Without simply telling you to go to the archives, here is a summary.
1. Am unfamiliar with Sierra windows specifically, but nearly all makes have removeable channels, seals where the insulated glass can be replaced without disturbing the stucco. a 3 foot by 5 foot piece of insulated glass will typically cost you $100 for the glass alone in a DIY effort. Someone here may know the specifics of Sierra window construction.
2. I have 'repaired' some tempered glass fogged insulated sections, but normal window glass is not simply fogged, the inside surface of the glass is literally ETCHED! (Don, chime in here). There is very little in the literature as to the exact causes of the etching, best estimates are that it is an enzyme reaction that creates localized acid etching. (the tempered glass does not etch as badly as normal glass, is infinetely easier to get off the spaceres, etc, so can conceivably be repaired)
3. The exterior access creates a dilema for replacement, would need a photo before offering any advice (my Grandpa died in a fall off a ladder) - my own house has full wrap around decks on the 2nd floor and a stairs to the roof simply to never need to use a ladder.
4. In S. Cal, I'd assume your need for insulated glass is primarily for cooling. You could consider single panes (cost of energy vs glass replacement trades, etc). Believe there are some insulated glass panels now built with much better seals and no exposed Aluminum to corrode. If I build another huse for myself or grandkids, the window will be single pane with magnetic attachment 'storm windows'
Good luck.
Thanks JUNKHOUND for your input.
1) The largest window is 5X10. I haven't been able to find a San Diego glazier who will replace it for me. Try harder?
2) The fog is water condensation which moves depending on the sun angle. Etching is not yet unacceptable. Can I remove the water by drilling some holes in the corners and adding a dessicant or new dry air?
3) The exterior access will require extensive scaffolding, damage to the landscaping and disruption of the unrelated downstairs tenants. The 5X10 window is on the third floor. It is always breezy enough to make this a difficult repair. A scissor lift cannot access the windows. The stucco has aged enough that a color match is impossible so window replacement is uneconomical. Can I cut out the inside trim and replace either the glass or the whole window from the inside?
4) The dual glazed windows were not required for the heat calcs but they make the house very comfortable. It is chilly and foggy most of the year. More important than the temperture is the noise. The beach is quite loud with very close neighbors and lots of late parties. Dual glazing makes the noise level quite acceptable.
I want to avoid the scaffolding and restucco if at all possible. If I have to replace the windows, I want them to last. Is there a better vinyl window with a plastic separator which will withstand the salt air?
Thanks, Eric
Eric,
If you intend on "fixing" them and not just replacing them...don't wait! I have four skylights in my shop that did this and now upon closer inspection, the glass is indeed "etched" with the minerals out of the water while the actual water vapor and moisture dried up.
And mine were Velux skylights that after being in place three years, I was told were out of warranty. So they weren't top of the line but not cheapies either.
I had thought about separating the panes and just trying to clean the outer pane I leave in place but not sure if that'll work?
Do a search as someone posted a "drill and dry" kit now available here once but as I said, don't do like I did and wait too long or they'll be unrepairable.
Mike
I'd need to see a photo to be sure, but it seems quite likely that the double-glass panel should be replaceable from the inside of the house. In that case, you're only dealing with popping the casings and stops and so forth, so the job falls more reasonably into the DIY category.
I don't know anything about 'drill and dry kits'; seems to me you'd need a vaccuum pump or some sort of inert-gas injector to make that sort of thing work. As Junkhound said, the actual glass panels aren't that expensive if you put them in yourself. That would be the way I'd go.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
"the actual glass panels aren't that expensive"
Dino: Well, I said $100 for a 3x5, not cheap to me anyway, but then I "eat roadkill" <G>. A 5X10 lots more $$$ as the ones that size I've worked with are typically 3/16" glass. May even be 1/4 tempered for on the beach weather/storm surges.
Eleeskis:
Was at a meeting at Huntington Beach this week with an aerospace coworker who is the executor of an estate that has a older 2 bedroom, 2 bath condo ON the beach -- they are liquidating and it is for sale for close to $3 MILLION!!!! (Lugana beach point I recall)
So, in that regards, $100 or $1000 for a window is cheap. I'd guess a 5X10 even for DIY would run in the $700 or over range (still cheap in that area) - the last one that size I moved, it took 2 big herfy guys for just the glass, so you need a big friend for DIY!
Your job is a tough call. If one is living in a $3 million condo, the DIY time for replacement vs the probable income for the time spent learning to do and seal an evac job on a non-etched window, such as reading up, buying a vacuum pump, figuring out how to get at the panes, asking more questions here, etc, etc, etc. may not be cost effective (PS, there are almost no jobs I do DIY that are cost effective vs the aerospace stuff I do for pay, but it is an ego thing to never hire anybody for anything except medical/dental). However, from your (Eleeskis') original post comments, it may be that the time spent finding a competent glazier would be more that the 10-30 hours needed for self education for a proper DIY job.
Hopefully someone on this board can recommend a competent person in the So. Cal area to you - kick your question to the top of the list every few day or post a separate request for recommendations for a compentent SC person. I'm from Seattle area and there are at least 4 pro building guys between here and SC who contribute to this board I've met who could competently handle your job, even if the pane needed replacement. Got no idea how 'dear' they are though.
Heck, just the time I spent answering this would have been over $1k at my corporate rate, but then, this is Friday night and I'm partly 'incapacitated' , and what are new DIY friends for anyway?
Dino: Well, I said $100 for a 3x5, not cheap to me anyway, but then I "eat roadkill" <G>. A 5X10 lots more $$$ as the ones that size I've worked with are typically 3/16" glass. May even be 1/4 tempered for on the beach weather/storm surges.
I consider a c-note cheap for the glass panel only, compared to what the entire window unit would cost. That was my point of take-off. Fer instance the glass in bothsides of my porch slider would come to about $75-100 per panel; a replacement door unit would be over $2000.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I have done a few jobs like this. The glass may or may not be removeable from the inside... only a close examination of the window or possibly some exploratory surgery will tell. This is a difficult and potentially dangerous job... at least that's what I think. A 5x10 piece of glass weighs enough that it needs 3 or 4 guys to safely lift it. I would assume it is tempered, which is a lot better than if it's not... the likelihood of getting the old one out in one piece is not very good. The only thing that might make it easier is if whatever sealant was on the outside has been degraded by the salt air. Usually getting the old one out requires a lot of careful work with a sharp razor knife to cut the old sealant, or a thin blade putty knife to dislodge the sealant. The Fein Multimaster tool can be rigged with a razor attachment to make this easier, although I've never done it myself. Anyway, one false move while cutting and prying, and the glass will break... if it's tempered, you just end up with a million small pieces... if it's not, you end up with hundreds of very dangerous pieces of glass which can cause a great deal of harm.
To make a long story short... it is possible that most of the work can be done from the inside...but almost certainly somebody will have to go on the outside, unless the glass is literally ready to fall out of the frame. I would advise putting plywood up over the outside to prevent glass from falling if the window breaks while removing.
It's no surprise you can't find anyone who wants to do it... I basically won't do it except in certain situations... and even then I would charge a lot of money. The potential for harm to property and limb is pretty high, especially three stories up above other people's properties. Good luck.
Tempered glass is pretty tough stuff, Nick. I've seen a double-pane patio door dropped 12 feet off a dumping platform into an empty container, and land on its corner right in the middle of the other glass door from the same door unit...and neither glass panel broke. Pretty impressive performance.
Also, ask Kostello about walking all over the glass roofs of those solariums he builds....
But your points about this being a tricky set of manoeuvres are well taken. If I had to do that job, I think I'd rappel off the roof in a nice comfy harness to pull off the old caulking/putty/whatever and do any other outside work that had to be done. A lot depends on whether the interior stops are nailed on or rabbetted in. If the latter, it'd be best to rig a hoisting beam on the roof to enable the old glass to be lowered down outside, and to hoist up the new one.Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
You're absolutely right... if it is tempered, they will have much better luck getting it out than if it's not. It really depends on how well sealed it is... if you have to pry on it to get it out, it only takes a wrong move to nick the edge of a piece of tempered and break it.
I actually used to build all-glass redwood framed sunrooms. One time my roofer was working above one and dropped his hammer right on one of the panes of tempered roof glass. It just bounced right off.
JH: Sorry, not my kind of etching. I use "sand." Though what you say is true. After a while glass insides become etched. Sorta like what happens to clear, colorless drinking glasses in a dishwasher.
Worst part of the problem w/ trying to re-evacuate & refill w/ gas of some sort is that you don't know where the leak is. Don't fix the leak, & all other labor is wasted. A 5X10 panel has 60 feet of potential linear surface to leak. If you got it fixed, the next weakest point would fail in a short while.
I've been fortunate to attend two Fenestration shows in Etlanner, Jawja (Honeychile!) about 10 yrs apart. As a registered attendee, I wound up on the mailing lists for nearly everything imaginable in the IG window fabrication line. It is amazing the changes in technology in sealing IG units and evacuating them. Nowadays, good IG unit makers have literally a clean room approaching aerospace
conditions for assembling their panels. Sounds like the panels Eric has come from the era prior to current sealing methods. Failed seals & leakage was a real problem about ten yrs ago. Don't know how good it is now, but cannot be worse!
Bottom line - this sucker has to be replaced!
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
I just skimmed the other responses, so I might repeat what someone already said. If the glass is tempered you cannot drill it. Once you get in to about 25% of the depth, it will shatter into a zillion pieces. If it's tempered, it should have a stencil saying so in one of the corners.
I'd access the edge and drill the separator rather than the glass, as Dino I believe also implied. The total edge would need to be accessed and resealed also.
I don't feel so old after the post that "4-5 guys" would be needed -- felt really weak at 55 a number of years ago when I absolutely could not even start to load a surplus 5X10 that I had taken off the truck 5 years earlier by myself.