A few asked me to do a forklift 101when I started the crane 101..
I actually attempted to do just that and spent several hours typing up a decent summation of costs, types, and economics.
It was a little more detailed than the crane since some may consider a purchase and I went into detail about new VS used and each’s economic cost vs benefits.
I also went to a great length about comparison between brands.
I’d already spell checked it and was doing a final read thru to make sure things were clear and correct when lightening killed the power.. Hours of work lost!
grumble, grumble, grumble!
But If there is interest I’ll repeat my efforts or maybe I should just open it up to questions?
Replies
Ive been in waiting .
What a bout a cross bred Grade All ?
Are they a forclift or a crane?
Seems they are on most want one lists.
But not me .
Dont they comptete for crane time too?
Tim
Edited 10/7/2005 3:36 pm by Mooney
Mooney,
Gradeall is funny, They vary between the number two and number five forklift sold in the nation.. they really aren't a true telehandler in the modern sense but where they are well accepted they dominate the market.. On the West coast and anyplace where mud isn't an issue they are well accepted and even prefered.. Like almost all American made forklifts they tend to have very low maintinace (which makes them well accepted by owners and because of that they maintain a good residual value (which makes them beloved by bean counters)
Here in the midwest they are decidedly poorly accepted. One of the weaknesses of Gradealls is that they create four tracks when they turn.. The inside tire remains pretty well fixed and the rest pivot around it.. (on their own path) that means they need twice the power to go thru mud that a true 4 wheel drive, four wheel steer forklift does. What's worse is they don't have direct drive to the steer axles using hydraulic assist. While they aren't the only ones to use hydraulic assist steer axles hydraulic assits isn't as efficent at transmitting power as direct drive is. That means they have less effective power to push thru twice as much mud..
Thus used Gradealls tend to sell cheap here in the midwest, with their disadvantages they don't have anywhere near the dealer network here so a parts problem winds up being a real problem!
while it is true that Gradeall now has modern 4 wheel drive, 4 wheel steer forklifts they remain a least one full generation behind the market.. One advantage that Gradeall has over other brands is they are made on the west coast with frieght costing over $3000 to get to the west coast for some brands, that is a price advantage that more than offsets their relative disadvantage regarding their ability in mud..
I should clarify mud here since west coasters have never seen mud, not the real mud we have here in the midwest.. On the west coast they have wet dirt which they call mud.. HAH!!!!! Mud Real midwest mud is a living growing entity! two steps into real midwest mud and your pants are dirty up to your knees! The weight of your boots grows by the cube of the number of steps untill after 16 steps you weigh well into six figures! If somehow you were able to take a sevententh step due to superhuman strength you couldn't anyway since you would now be submerged!
That's the kind of mud we have here in the midwest! Rumur has it people in Georgia are also familar with mud..
Er, I got off the track didn't I?
Anyway here in the midwest the radical tailswing characteristic of a rear steer machine would lead to a tremendous amount of damage.. For some reason midwest carpenters cannot fathom the idea of cheacking for tailswing.. Oops! there goes the bosses new pickup,...
I suspect that's true of the anybody not familar with the rear steer characteristics of rear steer gradealls.
There are a couple of Crane/forklifts on the market. That is, a forklift that rotates like a crane. Lull built a few prototypes and sold them to Korea, KD Manitou has one as well as Terex. Comments from the field report a tremedous amount of damage to the swing bearing and a decided lack of power transmitted to the drive wheels.. Like a rough terrain crane they use hydraulic assit to the axles and I discussed earlier the weakness of that system..
Ya but you didnt discuss the advantages .
Very well done though.
Now if you will tell what they wil do? other than take out the bosses truck. that was funny right there .
Mooney,
only if you're not the boss. <G>
Gradealls and all rough terrain forklifts benefit in the following ways..
First they will not only save enough money to pay for themselves during the five years or so it takes to pay for one, they will also provide you a real return on your investment.. as much as 20% if used to their full capability.. (conservative numbers repeatedly reported to me by actual users)..
After the five years are up they will then effectively work for another 20 years for pennies an hour!.. * a properly maintained forklift will always cost less to maintain than the payments on a new one.
They will do the work of two laborers and still get the house framed in 20% less time! The way that is achieved is as follows.
Pickup the floor joists and extend the boom over the foundation retract the boom dropping off a joist at the proper spacing. you can have the whole floor joists in place in the time laborers would take to put two or three joists in place if they needed to run back and forth to the joist pile.
Now grab the bunker of subflooring and extend over the floor joists. Slide one off and drop into place..nail and extend the boom 4 feet to slide another off. Actually you'll slide them off the right side of the boom, the left side of the boom, and in front of the boom meaning you can cover about 12 fet without moving the forklift.. (about now your laborers are panting running back and forth to the subflooring pile. what does a sheet of 3/4 inch plywood wiegh? about 64 pounds? The forklift picks up all 2000 pounds of the bunker and makes it in one trip, how many trips would your laborers use?
Next grab a pile of wall studs and extend them over the freshly built floor. If you drop them off as you retract the boom you won't have to carry any! (how many do your laborers carry at a time? thus how many trips does it take?) Want a work bench to saw some of those studs? Simple! saw them right on the forks.. use the forklift as your work bench!
Raising walls with a forklift is a lot easier on your back than grunting it vertical, Yes it does take a little skill to do well but it's like anything else, practice makes perfect! repeat for the second floor and now comes the great thing about forklifts the roof!
Sure you can carry the trusses up to the roof but I really recommend a crane. it's faster and safer! But! sometimes the crane can't get there when you need it and sometime you only have a few trusses to place.. Anyway the real joy comes from putting the plywood on the roof. Nah, don't get a guy to shove the panel up thru the joists and then carry it to where it needs to go, put the plywood on a work platform and raise it to the roof.. The workplatform gives you a nice flat place to work off of. Now nail the sheet in place and raise the forklift another 4 feet! You won't feel nervous cutting the panels because you aren't standing on the balls of your feet with only a few inches of tennis shoes between you and a long drop.. The sawdust really acts like little marbles in that case!
The work platform acts as your fall protection and your laborer all at once.
The same goes if you do the shingles.. use the forklift to lift those bundles and they are right handy with your fall protection right under you! Plus spare nails/ extra stuff etc. are carried by the workplatform rather than you..
Actually there are so many wonderful ways a forklift saves you time and effort. Put those great big windows in the second story and never once climb a ladder or even grunt! Never feel the panic as it tries it's level best to return to earth and attempt to disassemble itself.
Siding goes on a lot easier when you don't have to wrestle those pump jacks into place, soffit is simple and not done as you strain on top of a ladder..
Wanna earn bonus points? Tell the plumbers you'll set the shower stalls/ jacuzy up on the second floor for him. Don't pay some grunts to hump sheetrock upstairs. Set it in place before you build the final wall and cover it in case it rains.
If Iwas a better faster typist I could go on for hours..
Thank you very much.
The two bigges I was thinking about were fireplaces especially out of stone. Ugh.
The other is dormers on a steep roof. carry you shid up there and trim them.
Why dont I go on?
Unload trucks that cant get to where you need it . Take the old roofing off the house in a box tied to the forks that can be dumped in a dumpster. Painting out sides of two story buildings Nice thoughts. Carry a sprayer with you and the paint. Cleaning A frame wood shake roofs and coating them. Setting airconditioners on top of roofs. The list goes on huh?
Tim
Mooney.
House demolition. I stuck the forks of mine under the house, lifted it off the foundation and raised it about 25 feet in the air and tipped the forks. After gravity had it's way, there wasn't a single piece I couldn't throw into the dumpster by myself, but since I had the forklift I had it in the dumpster in less than 45 minutes leaving only a little shovel work.
Now that was a simple two story house with only minimal ties to the foundation but it was also only a 6000# forklift.. If It was bigger I would have used a 10,000 pound forklift..
I use mine as an elevator.. If I need to work on the second floor I set the tools on the work platform and have my wife operate the controls, (also works for the attic or the roof)
Triming trees, putting the windvane on the top of the copula, washing windows, stone work on the second story,
Frenchy,
Next week we'll get to start framing walls on the house we just started. I'll take lots of pics because we've refined forklift usage even farther than your above post.
It is unreal how important a forklift becomes. It is just not wise not to have one.
Here are some pics of ours in action :-)
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/94696234.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/94696326.jpg
Loaded up the 16' platform with 2x10 and framed these bays. It's like being on the ground and framing as far as ease and comfort, but the octagon on the left is 11' off the ground. http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/96180125.jpg
We strung the overhang, cut tails, installed subfascia and all soffit framing and fascia without having to walk the walls. http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7273486/96465240.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6440753/91810875.jpg
We can do all our cutting for roofsheathing up in the air.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/7154567/111217542.jpg
We framed this house which is basically 3 stories plus the gables and roof. We did all cutting up on the roof and sided this beast off the forklift. It made life so much easier.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/106870194.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/106870204.jpg
Sorry to chime in here, but for us as a company, forklifts have made a HUGE difference in the size of projects we can undertake without slowing the building process down. They have allowed us to focus on speed and quality because we have the engergy to do so.
Timuhler
thank you for your input (and the photo's) I like your choice of Forklifts!
I'd just want to point out one thing.. OSHA is now starting to enforce the provision regarding workplatforms. They are illegal if they are wider than the forks and a catch 22, forks longer than 4 feet are not rated by any manufacture so you can't have a platform wider than 4 feet (legally) they also limit forklift platforms to one foot wider than the forklift so platforms longer than 10 feet are not legal..
We can no longer sell the 12 and 16 foot platforms we used to..
We have a gradeall , two Cats, and a brand new Ingersoll Rand - the Gradeall is a real man's machine... lots more lifting capacity, the others have very cushy controls , enclosed cabs etc. Our operator likes the gradeall best primarily cause its a bigger machine then the others, I guess
Frenchy,
So platforms that were made prior to the new rule are illegal too? I'm so sick of OSHA. They do a lot of good, but go too far sometimes. Our 16' platform gives us a saftey factor that I cannot have ever imagined when I started framing. Even harnessed and roped in, you have a potential to hurt yourself. I personally can't stand it because I end up stepping on the rope and nearly twist my ankle.
I know that for WA state we have WISHA which is a state OSHA and according to the rules, last time I checked (2 or 3 months ago, we've had the platforms for 1 year this month), it was legal and I couldn't find any rule about size.
We just got the VR90B back from the shop. We had them do some service and tuning up. Thing runs like a top and that machine is perfect for small jobsites.
Timuhler,
There is an increased risk with the wide platforms and that is probably the reason they aren't legal. I can imagine a situation where too much weight gets on one side of a workplatform and causes the Forklift to tip over, especially machines Like Caterpillar which is extremely tippy to start with.
You won't feel that way with the Ingersol rand because they are the most stable machine on the market. But OSHA needs to deal with worst case rather than best case..
The VR90 and it's little brother VR60 are wonderfull machine for those crowed job sites.. extremely tight turning radius and shorter than most lets it work where other machines can't.
Another really compact machine is Gehl's 553 it's really the only machine that can tow behind a pickup and still put stuff 34 feet up.. Gehl has has remarkablely low warrantee claims with that machine.. an average of $10.00 per machine which in real terms amounts to one macine in 20 needs even a tiny litttle bit of service during the warranteee period..
Cool pics. I am jealous. Its darn near impossible to implement a forklift in a city. Space is often to tight to maneuver, or the part of the house you need to work on is 4 ft from the neighbor. Or you have trees and over head power lines to contend with.
BTW I noticed in that last pic that you were siding the gable ends w/ ceader shingles. I would advise against putting raw cedar against tyvek. The tannins in the cedar react with the tyvek and turn it into tissue paper within a few years. This can be avoided by either having the shingles dipped or installing home slicker over the tyvek or both.
Thanks for the comments.
About the cedar, we were using Cedar Valley shake panes. They are 8' long 3 course panels where the cedar is bonded to a building paper and then 1/4' plywood. They lie really flat and made siding those gables a short process. I timed the small gable on the bottom right and it took me 45 minutes to side, caulk and roll up :-) It's as fast as putting ply up.
http://www.cedar-valley.com/features.html
http://www.cedar-valley.com/index2.html
Is'nt that cheating. ;-)
Oh yeah :-)
Frenchy , you hit the nail on the head with that one . We built a house last year, I didn't have my helper had my wife instead (almost as good,could be stronger) used my antique Lull (3diget serial #) 1963 vintage strong as a friggen ox, to do just all of what you mention. other builders around wondered how we managed to put in those huge windows, or plywood the roof so fast or shingle.
You send a full bunk of 5/8 ply right up the roof , Roof had 165 sheets 5 gables 320' of valley . And do all your cuts on the bunk, it's a nice feeling when your on something flat. It may move side to side a little but it's just like a boat.
Anyway there is Noooooooo way I would build without it I'm to old and don't like carrying lumber, if I could get the kids to run it I'd be all set. <!----><!---->
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Setting windows? You betcha:
View Image
But, y'all forgot about setting beams with the forklift..... my back thanks me every day....
View Image
Hey Brian - haven't checked your addition thread lately, so I hope all is going well with that.
I'm curious about your work platform. Can you operate it from the basket or do you have to keep a man in the machine? Looks like it rotates 90d. You got any close up pics and did you buy it or make it?Birth, school, work, death.....................
The addition is going very well, thanks for asking. Mechanicals start (and should wrap up) this week.
I bought our work platform through United Rentals. The name brand is ForkMate and UR was the only dealer I could find locally. Freight woulda been a deal breaker. It's 8' X 4' and yes, it does rotate 90 degrees which is very handy. If you've got to work along the whole length of a house, it's nice to just park the machine and keep booming out, rather than shuffling the machine over each time. Also great for tight lots where you couldn't get the machine head on even if you wanted to.
Frenchy is right about the new OSHA rules. I forget the exact number, but I believe your work platform can't be any longer than your machine's wheelbase, plus 18". When I went to buy this one about three months ago I was informed of the change by some suppliers while doing research. The largest I could find was call the "Short 10'er". It was 9'6 as most machines have an 8' wheelbase. Problem was it didn't do the 90 degree trick so I figured the extra 18" wasn't as much of an asset as the swing platform would be.
No, you can't control it from platform... you have to have a guy in the machine. Another OSHA snafu. When I worked for my old boss we had a Cat TH-103 and had a 4' X 4' workplatform that you could control from inside the bucket. You couldn't move the machine, but you could manuever the boom all around. That was a sweet set up, but I learned that OSHA made them stop selling them when I bought my machine in January.
My bosses TH-103 got repossessed (long story with nasty divorce in the mix), but he still had his work attachments. I tried the bucket on my machine, but they had changed the connection plugs and couldn't swap mine out to make it compatible. Bummer, cuz I could've had the bucket for cheap. I keep saying bucket, but it was actually a small workplatform.... closer to a telephone company bucket though.
Here's a couple more pictures of the work platfom I have. Not exactly close-ups, but a little better. If you really want some closeups I can take a few tomorrow for you as it's sitting in my driveway. :) Let me know.
Came across this tonight and thought you might be interested in it.http://www.cat.com/cda/components/fullArticle?m=38622&x=7&id=281343&date=true&location=homepage
Floorheater,
The side to side sway that you mentioned is exactly why Ingersol Rand went to their low profile tires. If you notice most of that sway comes from the tires flexing, while foam filling somewhat reduces the sway the best solution is the low profile tires that Only Ingersol Rand uses.
But isn't it great to use hydraulic power instead of muscle power? Your point about the age your Lull isn't lost on me. Sometimes first time users look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them how durable forklifts are.. I mean a skid steer (Bobcat) has a life that is measured in years not decades and it's not uncommon for a ten year old skid steer to be scrapped. Heck I regularly used to scrap 5 year old skid steers since they were worth more as parts than as whole machines..
I have sold 20 year old forklifts and financed them! try to get that done on a skid steer!
Id bet most did know that
I have sold 20 year old forklifts and financed them! try to get that done on a skid steer!
Im wainting my turn on small and big hoes.
Tim
Frenchy, your right the tires do flex around, you get real use to it you start thinking your out fishing instead of working not a bad thing.
The dealers around here won't touch anything that is more than a couple of years old. sometimes you can find them in the wantad, but mostly just abanded in fields or junk yards. Mine was in a field left for years, new batt and fuel fired right up. tires were like new so getting those low profile ones or even the rims might not make sense. if i could figure out how to get pictures on here i'd post some of it along with the 20' boom attachment for doing trusses. <!----><!---->
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This is how i found the lull and also the cat excavater next to it. Then and now. <!----><!---->
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Since this thread is about lifts, I thought it might be appropriate to snap a shot today of us "raising a wall" with a Skytrak. We normally would grab this wall with the crane, but it was too heavy for us, due to how far we would have had to boom down. Frank was too lazy to hook the jib (boom) up, so we just hooked it in one spot and let him have it.
blue
blueeyeddevil,
Around here prepaneling is starting to get real big. The truck rolls up and an hour later the walls are up in place.. I've seen whole apartment complexes go up in a little over a week..
Around here prepaneling is starting to get real big. The truck rolls up and an hour later the walls are up in place.. I've seen whole apartment complexes go up in a little over a week..
I thought the same thing. They are phasing out Blues job and hes ready to give it to them.
Tim
Yer right Tim, they can have it!
We were approached to do some panelized multiples. The prices that they are paying the carpernters are appalling.
The carpenters are too dumb to figure out that building the walls are a small part of the overall frame job nowadays. The panel companies tell the framers that it will save 50% of their time and the dumb carpenters believe it. The SIP people tell the clients that they will save 67% on their Carpentry labor bill-another way overblown statement.
You are absolutely right Tim, they can have it.
blue
Hijack_
Since you don't come in the tavern anymore - What's the word on our Pistons? My son ran into Tayshaun this summer and of course he was crowing about another championship, but I haven't kept up with trading since the end of the season. Birth, school, work, death.....................
'Nother hijack. MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMason's down here calling the action at KY's Midnight Madness.Birth, school, work, death.....................
Hijacks are allowed after 40 posts.
What is MMMMMMMason?
blue
What is MMMMMMMason?
He's the annoying anounncer at The Palace at Auburn Hills for Piston's games.
Birth, school, work, death.....................
Oh, that mason! I like that guy.
blue
Frenchy,
This is a great thread, lots of good info. I've got a Cat TH63, bought used 6 years ago. We love it and couldn't get along without it. Got a large dirt type bucket and a 16' truss boom. We haven't had much problem with stability but then again, tires are filled and we do have the stabilizers. We actually do sometimes use them, for instance reaching out to set beams it gains some reach, with work platform it stabilizes alot, etc. I wouldn't probably ordered them if bought new but they were on machine. I agree about auctions, I went to a few and couldn't believe how crazy some people got. I bought from a large dealer down south who had a bunch come back in off rental. Machine was 3 years old and about 1500 hrs., practically just broke in. Got it for 20G less than our local dealer wanted for 1 year older unit. Cost $800 for trucking.
One observation, Cat service is great, they have most everything in stock and in a pinch, they have a great road service guy, but it aint cheap. I'm not sure if that's different with other machines.
I've used JCB's{not impressed} and narrowed down to Cat and IR. The IR is a great machine, we used one for about 4 months on a job, but the deciding factors were,#1 a friend has a cat and a ton of attatchments, so I could have access to them, and #2 price was right. We haven't been sorry. One thing I will say, this machine starts as good at 10 below zero as at 70 degrees. I'm amazed.
Work platform questions:
We use a homebuilt work platform on our house jobs for everything listed above and then some. It's 16' wide, 3' deep standing area with a 16' workbench/slide saw table facing machine. This fits onto forks.
I understand that you're saying this is not OSHA approved or allowed. I don't take this on any commercial jobs at this time, and we usually rent manlifts with 8 ft. baskets for them as there's a lot more moving around and you can do it all from the basket. I've thought of fabricating a new platform that fastens onto the quick connect rather than the forks, if we do this are you saying max width is 9'6"? Is there a written spec that Osha has we can see somewhere? I guess it would be nice to have a platform that actually meets osha guidelines. It's a shame they wont let you have wider platform, it's so much safer than pump jacks, ladders, planks, etc. but I'm not surprised.
Pardon the interruption,
I agree about your sentiments on the OSHA regulations. I've never felt safer working at heights as I do on a forklift mounted work platform. It's a very comfortable feeling.
Here's a little information regarding your question to Frenchy:
ASME/ANSI standard for elevating personnel B56.8.25.1 reads: floor dimensions which shall not exceed two times the load center distance listed on the rough terrain forklift truck nameplate, measured parallel to the longitudinal center plane of the truck [measured across the load bearing tires plus 10 in. (250 mm) on either side.
Most Rough Terrain Forklifts & Material Handlers are 96" wide, plus the 20" allowed past the load bearing tires equal the 116" width of the "Short 10TM"
This information is taken from a website that sells work platforms. Here's the link:
http://rds.yahoo.com/;_ylt=AkXY7IpI9djVD3btO6FHUelXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0MjhxNGhzBGNvbG8DZQRwb3MDMgRzZWMDb3YtdG9wBHZ0aWQDaTAyMV80Nw--/SIG=1kjhcuamv/EXP=1129378536/**http%3A%2F%2Fwww20.overture.com%2Fd%2Fsr%2F%3Fxargs%3D15KPjg1wtStoK9k7PyMPiIRvydhRlLis%255Fxppw7S8cmXY4CqSQpT7MgM7wBqvNlCrMltROQkaPcz5d3cbDlwL%255FXThjdSFKIGfWupfjJxIg1NqmiWdhEh6Vuv57kmPNKTn1yFG7AeqS%252DmZvPI8CrZipG%255F40BzQvqpbJjwMmywOEdErPa20Q7rg2WcsN9ma0t9brEXOgJTcAnDN%255FolyefhK9zr4UoxeCkbhAtKSukkRkM31KAUjlp4t3AfJlV9YnBuIqfaeP9ms8cKEmQ%255FfJq4AjSsD6exPl%252DSCXAzetPww9aFPW9beP1mBzqmr6fpcLLP58a3j2uSdLeCXDxf0NyfFM3X6P%255FXAScYT9poBPOIs0ZLqb3%252DiG%255FFvPXU3sqYEVDvpStIPdW2xXE%255Fwp5HTfOEMyLzH4NY%252D82kQ%255Fg12aG5UxwkOgx8OndLtRWuYfGyFbBIC4L60rz5dH1Hvemhn1N5S8r6bNOAWJpi4FjlHUS6TTYkv7Khug%255F%26yargs%3Dwww.budgetforklift.com
Wow. Sorry for the oversize web link. It works though. ;) As you can see from the quote above, I was off a bit in the allowable sizing.
Diesel,
I wonder if the width can be increased if the machine has outriggers as mine does? It certainly makes a big difference in the stability when using a platform.
Bish,
In practical manner , yes.. according to law, no!
The Ingersol Rands that I sell are far and away the most stable forklift on the market, yet we can't use any wider of a platform than anyone else.. (well maybe six inches wider!)
Look at the rear axle to see about stability.. If there is a restriction at some boom angle that prevents travel and frame tilting. then that machine failed it's stability tests and a rear axle stabelizer was added in order to pass.
Standard Ingersol Rand passed without a rear axle stabilizer.. In addition we offer low profile tires which eliminate tire sway/ flex further adding to stability and you can get them foam filled which adds further stability..
While you can get outriggersonce you really understand the dynamics of a telehanderler you will understand what a poor bandaide they are.. and how much they reduce the effectiveness of the forklift..
Frenchy,I get your point on the legal issue of width, but don't quite understand your point of how outriggers hurt the effectiveness of a telehandler. I've used a lot of machines in the past, JCB's,IR's, skytracks, and the Cats, and I can't recall when my outriggers have hurt me to have other than a clearance issue when manuvering in super tight quarters. Granted they add weight to the front end, but if I'm lifting say full units of plywood up onto a deck, I'll drop my outriggers before I extend out too far anyway. For setting beams or trusses I've got extra reach, and I think I'm safer. When using my work platform I'm more stable than any brand without outriggers down. It does take a few seconds to lower and raise them, but not bad. Am I missing something? No disrespect.
Bish
It sounds kinda counter intuative but outriggers hurt a fork lift where it normally is most efficent.. That is in the pick and carry mode.. Pick up a bunker of plywood subflooring and set it over the joists, slide one sheet off and drop and nail. as compared to picking up a sheet of plywood and carring it over to where it needs to be..
Because outriggers are out in front of the machine and thus reduce it's forward reach you wind up dragging plywood further. In addition with those outriggers up you have less capability and they sort of force you to put them down when ever you are doing a forward reach. putting outriggers down is a time consuming process as is retracting them back up.. None of them are really fast and they all take time to set and level...
In addition they restrict what you can do with a forklift.. If you are up in the air you can easily sway the forklift back and forth a total of 8 feet! with outriggers down you can't do that.. Now granted most brands if you sway 10% left and 10% right you are going to tip it over.. not the IR, When I hung the gutters on my house I was able to get to both ends of the gutter without moving the forklift.. (other than sway or frame tilt) I also hung timbers and then was able to lag bolt the whole thing again without moving the forklift.. Twenty feet to work on and a 10 foot work platform..
I read the load charts the manufactores put on the dash and as long as I have 2200 pounds capability why spend the time tolower outriggers? the heaviest bunker of plywood I've ever seen was 2000 pounds if it's a little green and wet you could get to 2200 pounds. Check the load charts with and without outriggers, you can easily lose 500 pounds of forward capacity and one brand loses 1000 pounds.. thus you pretty much are forced to use the outriggers all of the time..
I used to sell outriggers with the Cat forklifts I sold simply because they are so tippy you don't ever want to sway the forklift. Masons almost never wanted outriggers since it restricted getting under the scaffolding and with some brands like Cat and Gehl the boom was directly over the front tires at maxium height.. thus they were forced to drive under th scaffolding to set product at maxium height, outriggers prevented that..
Here in the midwest we work in a lot of deep mud.. outriggers really hurt performance in deep mud since the weight is at the front where it hurts the most. One of the tricks to moving a forklift in really deep mud is to use the boom to put the weight where it will do the most good.. for example if you raise the boom all the way up (but retracted) you have 95% of the weight on the back tires and if you reach the boom out fully you wind up with 70% of the weight on the front axle. (except with outriggers, then it's less than 80% boom up and well over 90% boom forward.
Frenchy,
While we are gone to the Portland JLC in November/December, we are going to get new tires and foam for the VR90B and we have new tires for the 1056 that were thrown in when we bought the machine. We'll have them installed and filled with foam.
Are there any issues I should be aware of before we do this? What ARE the pros/cons of foam filled tires. I had a bid from Les Schwab, a larger tire chain on the west coast last year and it was about the same as the shop we bought our forklifts from (Pape Group), but Les Schwab will come out to the job and do the work whereas we have to take the tires in and have them filled if we go through the shop.
Any insight you have would be great.
Timuhler,
Foam filling adds weight and while legally it doesn't add capacity in reality you will feel a lot more secure with foam than without it. I might point out that the differance between a 642 and an 843 is really only the weight of each.. they use the same engine and transmission and hydraulic system.. (oh and a 642 actually has 42' 11 3/4" of max lift hight.. guess what the max is for a 843?) Hint!!!!!
Am I making myself clear?
Make sure you know the properties of the foam.. I've seen foam that is too soft for load lifting and you really gain nothing as far as tire stability goes.. I've also seen "foam" oozing out of a cut in a tire. obviously that also is the wrong kind of foam..
Buy new tires before you foam!!!!!! They should only cost around $200 dollars each or so (plus mounting and disposal) And you won't want to have bald foam filled tires since they will have really poor traction.. When the tread wears out just recap the tire. I've seen tires that are well over a decade old and still just fine even if the sidewalls are a bit weather checked.. the foam prevents air leaks.
Expect that the ride will get worse, noticibly worse.. a suspension seat is standard on all the forklifts we bring in since we sell only foam filled tires... If you want air filled tires we have a set sitting around to switch for you but you'll be back <G>
Bish,
You're in a catch 22 situation . You can build a workplatform to OSHA specs have them come out and check it and still not legally use it on your Cat.. You see Cat never approved the use of a work platform.
As Cat dealers we used to get around that by selling the Cat and an OSHA approved work platform seperately. It was delivered on the same truck but not "installed"
The New Cat offers a work platform with controls up in the basket. about a $15,000 option and it's something like 3x4 feet. That makes the grey area even more grey!
Some sharp lawyer will read about that sort of thing and the lawsuit will be painfull.
I just had a customer tell me that his insurance company is requiring manufactor approved work platforms..
Regarding starting in cold weather, always keep both batteries in tip top condition,, you don't want some YAHOO trying to get that started with either. it will blow the head gasket! John Deere and Cummins both can use either and both offer kits that squirt either in as a starting aide direct from the factory.
The bottom battery has a tendancy to run dry so check it regularly. I sold a lot of TH63's and we used to often put outriggers on to add stability. they really help in forward reach even if they do subtract from max forward reach capability.
The market for used Cats reflects their higher maintinace issues. Always use the Cat brake fluid for that machine, never buy regular brake fluid. If the Forklift won't move even when it is running, check the two micro switches on the hand brake, you may have dropped something on them and knocked them out of adjustment. If you can't readjust them a bandaide approach is to wire them together. If your carriage rotates be very carefull with it, the pin is extremely weak and bends easily Once bent it aguers out the housing and you are in for expensive welding and remaching. Do not use it if it's lose, I know of two carriages that have fallen completely off! One was as it was lifted AND NOTHING HAPPENED AND THE OTHER WAS 30 + feet in the air, loaded!
SCARY!
Edited 10/14/2005 11:07 am ET by frenchy
The New Cat offers a work platform with controls up in the basket. about a $15,000 option and it's something like 3x4 feet. That makes the grey area even more grey!
It's actually the 'old Cats' that had that option. The 63, 83, and 103. The 'new Cats' don't offer that attachment. I'm talking about the TH-220B through the TH-580B machine which are the machines that closely resemble the discontinued TH63 - TH103 machines.
OSHA made them stop selling those platforms last year. We had a TH-103 with one of those. I tried that platform on my own TH-360B and while the quick couplers do mate, the plugs which connect and control the platform from inside the platform do not mate. Furthermore, they can't sell me the appropriate plugs to make it work. Bummer, because even though it was a small platform, it was ridiculously handy to have and eliminated an operator dedicated to shuffling one of us around.
Edited 10/14/2005 11:03 am ET by dieselpig
Dieselpig,
Look at Gehl, they offer a smilar option. (as does JCB)
I suspect that it wasn't OSHA that made Cat stop selling their work platform but Cat's own lawyers..
Someday when I'm feeling the need to type I'll tell some of the stories about how Cat gets sued! Let me say that Cat dosen't build anything that the lawyers haven't spent years looking at and writting reports.. It's like each Cat engineer is issued his own lawyer,, <G>
You could be right about the lawyers snuffing the sales, but the dealership said it was OSHA. Who knows?
Man, you really don't like Cat, huh? FWIW, any company that DOESN'T concern itself with lawsuits is one to be scared of. I'd rather purchase from a company that pulls products from the market for being 'dangerous' than I would from a company that decides getting sued is less expensive than selling less product. Agree? You've got to admit, Caterpillar has an awful good reputation, sells an awful lot of machines and equipment, and is an internationally recognized brand. They're doing something right.
Edited 10/14/2005 5:06 pm ET by dieselpig
Dieselpig,
I worked for Caterpillar for 7 1/2 years, I can attest to some of the things they do and why they do it.. Yes Caterpillar is the big dog, but little of it's product is made here in America anymore.. The way it gets it's giant reputation as a dominate player is complex but involves extremely aggresive marketing and a trade off of American jobs for new markets..
I think you may have put a spin on my comment that wasn't intended, regarding the lawyers and lawsuits. Naturally they are concerned with lawsuits. They are a big target with extremely deep pockets. They would be foolish to expose themselves without due diligence..
As for liking Caterpillar, heck it was always my childhood dream to work there and when I was hired it really made my day..Often I sold equipment not because of any real effort on my part but because it was Caterpillar! Those jackets, hats and belt buckles were a brillant marketing concept!
They still make some of the best equipment even if not much of it remains manufactured in the United States. However their forklift is basically a piece of farm equipment imported here and used as construction equipment.. I like british cars, I own several MG's and Jaguars but I am under no illusion that they are great transportation.. They are toys and I don't mind the maintinace they required.
You can see that in the extremely low resale value of used Cat forklifts.. (especially when you consider that they aren't normally used in masonary applications)..
Construction equipment shouldn't need so much maintinance. I used to make sure that all the paperwork was finished before I delivered one, I didn't want to be there the first week when all the shortcomings became apparent. Back in those heady days I could sell anything I could get so it wasn't a matter of great salesmanship rather more like shooting fish in a barrel..
Trust me every brand of forklift has it's short comings, I can talk about the bending booms and broken frames of Lulls I've sold and how some were so under engineered. The Gehls were pretty solid but had their own weaknesses. Even the Ingersol Rands that I currantly sell have a couple of issues that need attention..
Frenchy, keep up the good work. I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread.
Diesel, a while back you mentioned that you were thinking about getting a boom attachment. Here's a shot of ours coming in real handy today.
Again, the wall we are handling was too heavy for the crane. The trak with the boom handled it easily. We ended up being 8" short of reach, but it was a cinch to brace the wall, give some slack on the straps and inch the wall over using my "gorilla" bar. We are using a 12' boom, but I'd recommend buying a 15'er.
I'm starting to do some reseach on buying workplatform. Were tired of working out of sitebuilt garbage boxes. Well, maybe only a little tired.
blue
Floorheater,
that Old LULL is older than the 400 series that I used to come across on rare occasions.
Which engine did it have?
Frenchy, this lull was of the early vintage that they use to mount the unit on modified farm tractors that year it was an oliver. I tried to get brakes thru lull when I aquired it, (I have all the part#'s and manuals for it ) that was nuts' hours on the phone lull can get lull parts but not for the tractor part. anyway googled a search on oliver a farm supply place traced it to a oliver 770 or 750 all the parts I want hour away. I'm tring to find all the attachments for it. I have the telescoping crane unit w/winch, works great for trusses. It has never failed me since I got it. Fires with the flick of the key (doesn't like -5 or below though)being an updraft carb and all.
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Floorheater,
telescopic forklifts effectively last well over 25 years if used for home framing. It's always cheaper to repair them than to buy new so there is a giant demand for any old used forlifts.. I've sold 20 year old telehandlers for $20,000. and been told about how wonderful it is, (and compared to not having one they really are.. )
I know a couple of forklifts that were well maintained and other than normal maintinance stuff have lasted for 20 plus years. I've been selling them for nearly 15 years now and The first few I sold are still at work with the people I sold them to..
In 1989 industry wide there were 312 forklifts sold.. When I first started annual sales were around 500 industry wide. and by the mid 90's when sales approached 10,000 a year old beat up and worn out machines sold at auctions for more than I was able to get for good used ones with a warrantee and financing.
When I worked for Caterpillar I would go to auctions with instructions from Caterpillar to support the price of used Cat forklifts. In 7 1/2 years the ceiling I was instructed to go to was always below the starting bid!
Yet I would offer solid forklifts with warrantees for less then their losing bid and they weren't interested. I can't figure people out. Get them in an auction and they have unlimited funds and yet make them a better offer and they sit on their wallets..
In 15 years I've had 4 trade ins, all smaller forklifts traded for full sized forklifts.
I explain that if they list the forklift in the papers they can sell it for more than I can retail it for, they try it and on monday they call me and order the new forklift without the trade in..
FWIW - Was rumaging around with Google and came across this:
JLG will purchase the assets of Trak International, which include all operations relating to the Sky Trak and Lull brand telehandler products for a cash purchase price of $100 million.... Sales of the purchased operations in calendar year 2002 totaled approximately $217 million.... In addition to being North America’s leading manufacturer of aerial work platforms, JLG also owns Gradall, a major supplier of material handling equipment, which it acquired in 1999. Omniquip is the leading North American manufacturer of material load handlers. Based in Port Washington, Wis., it has six plants in Wisconsin, North Dakota and Minnesota.... said Bill Lasky, JLG chairman, president and CEO. "This acquisition is consistent with our strategic direction of remaining focused on our core access products. In addition to expected savings from common components, product design and distribution channels, we have identified and will realize significant ‘hard’ synergies, allowing JLG to apply its competencies in manufacturing, engineering, new product development and supply chain management."
From Rental Equipment Register, July, 2003
CaseyR
Wow!
100 MILLION!
Badger Bason bought lull out of bankruptcy in 1994 for 6 million, one hundred thousand dollars.. owned it for about 5 years and sold it for 45 million, But the company that owned both Lull and Sky track had over 80 miilon in the two companies plus the cost of closing the Shakopee plant and moving it to Two Rivers.. plus investments to improve the manufacturing facilities and redesign costs..
I'll bet there wasn't a great deal of profit... in that price!
The trouble is the market is fragmented and many Loyal Lull and Skytrack users and dealers have switched..
Nation wide there are 24 forklift brands made and imported to the US. There is a real market for three or 4 brands at best. Many of the weaker brands like Carelift and Petebone are doomed to slow failure.. Petebone has declared bankruptcy and is limping along Carelifts base in Canada will likely support it untill the bitter end..
JCB has an extremely weak dealer networkand even dominate players like Gradeall have been showing real weakness lately. Terex's aquisition of the square shooter forklift has yet to yeild the kind of market share they need to survive. John Deere has imported a few English built forklifts but met with miserable failure. They are the same brand of forklift that Ingersol Rand inported earlier and had such a miserable experiance with..
AS JLG dealers we have access to the new Lull/ Skytrack/JLG and even had an early production one here for several months.. I can tell you that inspite of extremely aggressive marketing on our part we couldn't get a nibble. It was built all wrong for the market. Many short comings and weaknesses apparent.. Never put that much machine in the mud with only 80 HP, never have that many hoses and wires exposed, and improve the quality of your welds! (just for a start!)
Well, I'm an aging carpenter/builder who is forklift impaired. I live & work in an active second home market in the midwest (N.E. Mn) and have been away from residential const. for 10+ yrs. My son & I now are cranking up our company & it seems every other house builder in the county has a lift of some kind. I've seen multiple SkyTracks,Lulls, Cats & others. Can you do a basic primer on manuf's. pros & cons etc. Sounds maybe like what you lost to the Great Cosmos but the info is really appreciated . Also thanks to all who contribute to this thread.
This thread is a great one. Thanks for all the advice you gave me before. I still haven't bought one yet but I have a rental IR unit and all rental fees go to down payment when I'm ready to buy. Thanks again.Greg
Werner Building & Remodeling
Huntingdon PA
hes doing a super job and Im waiting my turn on him doing mine if he will.
One of the better threads Ive read in a while with the exception of mine of course . <G>
Tim
norskeboy,
OK a short primer on various brands and eaches strength and weaknesses. I'm going to speak only about the top brands. there are 18 brands represented here in Minnesota, ( we represent 4) and 24 brands sold and imported into the US.
First there are three common sizes, 6000#, 8000#, 10,000# almost every manufacture uses the same basic engine transmission and etc. on all three models the prime differance amounts to weight. Oh, and price! an 8,000# is about $8,000 more expensive than a 6,000 #, and a ten thousand # is another $8000.
You can get the stability of a 8,000# forklift usually simply by foam filling the tires or adding outriggers.. (much cheaper than getting the 8000# model) Outriggers.. however are a real double edge sword. they add weight, in the wrong place and slow down production due to the time it takes to lower them into place and then retract them.. The few I've sold with outriggers use them religously the first week and some the next weeks and in a month or so the remain up almost all of the time.. I call them training wheeels and that's how they seemed to be used.. except for the next 20+ years they are dead weight at the wrong end of the forklift..
The little forklifts with less than 30 feet of lift are most often used as a stepping stone.. new guys buy them because they seem less daunting and well,,,,,....... compact. I have never sold one yet that the owner didn't want to trade it back in shortly after buying it..
Caterpillar,
Hard not to notice that brand, They are the big boys in equipment sales and I sold many of them myself.. Since almost all forklifts sell for about the same price with the same equipment, all I needed to do was offer a cat jacket or hat with the sale and give the customer a tour of our facilities, sure was easy!
Weakness, Cat's are made in england primarily as Ag machines.. they have a lot of features and ammenities, but they tend to have a lot of maintinace issues.. For example the brake fluid in TH63's is unique to cat. use regular brake fluid and you'll need to overhaul the brakes when the seals fail.. Or the switches, Not up to American standards and often what prevents the forklift from working is a simple $22.00 micro switch that's out of adjustment (or even bent from a carpenters hammer worn when the operator sits in the seat).. Side tilting carriages suffer greatly from a weak pin. they seem to easily bend if even slightly abused..
In addition their frame tilting is with what is called a Bang, Bang switch (on off switch) not too bad unless you are up on the platform 41 feet in the air.. Then as the tire lifts off the ground and you're jerked around it's just plain scary..
The engine in a Cat is made by Perkins and won't accept either as a starting aide.. If you read the owners manual you will find out that the use of either will result in engine failure (blown head gasket) Brands that are powered by either John Deere or Cummins engines offer factorysystems that inject the correct amount of either for starting..
Lull,
Shorty Lull should be given credit for the major improvements he created for telehandlers. Unfornuately Shorty lost his company and as it wandered thru bankruptcy and various owners the original loyalty shown by owners was tried and tried again.. Gradully their commanding market share has deteriorated..
They still are the preferred brand of masons. The sliding carriage (called transaction) helps an operator set a load of brick and remove itself from the brick pockets without causing the masons to drops their tools and grab the scaffolding.. It works as advertized on flat and level ground. and in operation the forklift dramatically loses capacity the further forward it reaches, to the point where it can only place a few sheets of subflooring at max forward reach.
In addition because Lulls are so common with Masons they tend to have low resale value compared to macines used by carpenters.. Masons use up a forklift much faster than almost everyone.. it's the first machine started inthe morning and then the operator may as well put a brick on the throttle since he needs to run near flat out all day keeping the masons suppied with bricks and blocks and morter and rebar and etc. it's usually the last machine shut down at night.. The whole time they are running around in a cloud of morter mix, sand and dust..
I've never seen a mason with a grease gun and yet the manual calls for grease every ten operating hours, Many grease fittings are so covered in concrete you couldn't grease them if you tried.. Lulls tend to be top heavy and slow. A 80 hp 644B has a top speed of 12 MPH while most other brands travel around 20
I'm going to send this now even though it's far from complete, (once burned,,...)
Gehl,
Gehl builds solid heavy machines in Yankton SD. They try to do more with their models and all of them accept buckets very well. (i think they want to build a loader with reach. They use a great transmission and the rest of the machine is well engineered. a bit too heavy which is actually a liability..
Like most machines they are forced to use rear axle stabilizer system to be certified. at some boom angle (depending on brand) machines lock out the ability to travel and tilt side to side. Really limits their ability to build houses..
They do make a model the 553 that is a great starter machine.. You can tow it behind a heavy duty 1 ton pickup yet it still reaches to 34 feet and can carry 5500 pounds!
Ingersol Rand,
OK confession time.. I sell that brand so I tend to be prejudiced.but the reason I sell that brand is because demo after demo the Ingersol Rand sold itself against the Lull, Cat, Gehl, or whatever I sold.. I tried my level best to outsell the Ingersol salesman and frankly his selling skills were weak.. But the machine sold almost everyone!
These are the reasons that I sell Ingersol Rand..
In Minnesota 65% of the framers use it.. They don't sell to masons or many general contractors because when they use equipment they tend to put a lot of tough hours on it, making the used forklift hard to sell..
The warrantee claims are really low much lower than any other brand I sold..
They can sell three other brands and yet IR's dominate!
They are the most stable machine on the market, remember what I said about Rear axle stabilzers? forget it, Ingersol Rand passes easily without it.. the most stable machine on the market. That means you can tilt and raise the boom sway from side to side and travel freely! since many homesites are on rough terrain they really are a lot more capable than most
they have a unique low profile tire that virtaully eliminates tire sway.. our work platform feels much more secure than anybody elses.. Oh sure we sell the non low profile regular 13:00x24 tire if you need to save the $395 the low profile coption costs.. Sine the rim gets bigger to keep the overall diameter the same ground clearance, turn radius etc, remain the same. all you get is less sway..
Even though we have the same groud clearance as everybody our seat is a lot easier to get in and out of.. some brands require you to climb steps to get into and out of,,a really big deal when you are climbing in and out of the machine many times a day..
IR's have great visability!
When I sold cat's I had the buyer jump in the seat and take a look at the visability..
(I was always carefull not to let him drive, since you need to lift the boom up right into your line of sight in order not to drag things on the ground.. Thus sitting on the showfloor you could see everythiong, yet on the jobsite you were suddenly blind to the right side unless you really raised the boom high inthe air, at which point the machine wanted to tip over)
Sky tracks,
for a long time they dominated the market.. They were sold as a price machine however they paid the same for the engine/trans/ axles/ hydraulics/ tires/steel/labor as everyone else.. It was simple but brillant marketing.. They Like Lull have gone thru a whole series of owners recently and that's had an impact on their market share..
Their legacy model remains top heavy and tippy plus visability is a challenge. Beloved by rental dealers they frequnetly flood the used market which drives their resale value down.. decent rugged basic machine that is at least as durable as mostAmerican made machines. Turnradius and many other design considerations are at least two generations behind the market, yet they are capable of performing the task of a telehandler in a reliable fashion..
Gradeall,
Here in the midwest Gradeall isn't well accepted.. see my earlier post..
JCB,
another English Import like the Caterpillar, prone to the same sort of nickle dime problem they often suffer from a lack of a strong dealer net work.. Something you'll want on a machine with an effective 25 year working life..
Terex,
Terex buys up weak brands and thru carefull marketing and smart management infuses new life. They bought the old Square shooter model and now position it as a price machine,, See my earlier comments about prices.. It is a basic model capable of working as a telehandler.
Terex has it's parts depot in the gulf coast and owners report to me they are having a bit of difficulty getting parts. You need totake that with a grain of salt.. It takes a really strong dealer to have all the needed parts on hand and when the central parts depot is affected by a huricane it's reasonable to expect delays in getting your machine fixed..
Appreciated previous advice on watching for welds on forks.
Any further advise per this thread on using front loader attachments as forkllifts?
Looking at limited loads, 3 K so.
Please expand your discussion!! We are about to make a purchase and I would love your opinion on brands. We are in SW Michigan and have rented a Skytrack brand for many months this year. We currently have on rent an almost new Terex (150 hrs) 6000#, 42 ft reach +/-. Around here I see more Skytrack than anything else. The sales rep from the co. we will purchase from (and rent from) will sell Skytrack, Terex, Ingersoll Rand and maybe Gehl (can't remember for sure). We may buy a 1999 or 2000 model for around $35k but may spring for a much newer one for up to $70k. The Terex we have has great controls but this generation is too new to know if it will last like an IR or Skytrack. The new Gehl that has basket controls could double as a small man lift for us but I'm sure they are pricey. The last Skytrack that I used had fairly clunky controls that were inaccurate. With this Terex I can move the tips of the forks a fraction of an inch while being extended the full boom length. This is both safer and more useful.
So, please give me your opinion.
Greg Terrill
GregT
Sorry to respond so late..
The brands you mentioned, Skytrac and Terex have several weaknesses. First among them is their realitive instability.. They failed the stability test that all manufactures have to pass. The solution they came up with was RAS.. Rear axle stability system.. Basically it prevents you from frame tilting or travelling when the boom is above a certain angle..
That is a major restriction but needed because those brands will tip over easily..
In addition visabability suffers with those especially the Skytrack heritage series..
In addition Terex has a terrible reputation around here for parts avialability.. They make decent competitive equipment that suffers from the single source parts depot concept they use.. Both Skytrack and Terex are relatively recently aquired companies who's new owners need to pay off the debt they aquired when they were purchased.. Thus cost accountants are their new best friends. They buy the cheapest possible switches etc.. figuring that buyers won't sqwauk too much over the failure of simple switches etc.. What's less well understood is the cost differances in seals and such.
Gehl offers an overly rugged forklift.. Strange but the problem is that they tried to make it both a loader and a forklift.. They have the strongest boom in the business and it more than any other boom is capable of moving dirt and being used in a fashion that would have other brands turning into pretzels..
The down side is that in spite of being the heaviest forklift made for it's class it suffers from the problem of a heavy boom.. In other words it too is required to have a RAS (rear axle stability system which hurts an otherwise excellant forklift.. They have a really stought transmission Use mostly John Deere engines (which I really respect) and have several features that really shine.. (including their remote controlled boom operation)
I think for smaller sized forklifts you simply cannot beat the Gehl 553 model.. If you can live with 35 feet of reach and 5500 pounds capacity that is an excellant forklift for the money!
I can sell examples for around $55,000 and the really great part of them is their warrantee record.. Average warrantee claim per forklift is $10.00
Yep! ten bucks!
That means on average one owner in twenty even suffers as much as a $200.00 repair!!
Ingersol Rand which I sell has a slightly higher warrantee average (although still dramatically lower than average)..
Anyway back to The Gehl 553
It's just about the only forklift that can be hauled with a pickup.. Yeh, get yourself a really heavy duty 1 ton pickup and a light 5th wheel trailer and it can be legally hauled.. every other forklift will require a much larger truck..
I honestly would buy a Ingersol Rand VR642!
The reasons are as follows..
Stability, I can work a 642 in places no other forklift can work safely..
Controls,
IR uses ATF fluid in their forklifts set up for cold weather.. Controls operate smoothly and with precision even in cold weather. Since they send ATF thru the lines instead of the mollasses that Hydraulic fluid becomes in the cold the seals and entire hydraulic system is subject to far less stress.. It's extremely rare to see a leaking or even wheeping cylinder on an IR where it's all too common on most other forklifts.
productivety,
Allmost every forklift made uses a 13:00x24 tire. A big tractor tire or maybe roadgrader tire. IR offers that as standard too but for a nominal fee ($365) you can buy a low profile tire.. Overall size is the same as a 13:00x24 but the sidewall is extremely short and stiff. (they use a bigger wheel so everything comes out the same) where that makes a differance is when you have guys up in the work basket... Regular tires flex and bob and weave around as guys move around up in the work basket.. that movement forces them to keep one hand for themselves and try to do their job with one hand on the railing and only using the other..
With the low profile tire the tire flex is a thing of the past.. your guys will feel comfortable enough to use both hands to do their jobs..
Visability,
IR really has nearly the best visabilty in the class. Limited only by difficulty seeing the right fork tip from the operators seat when the boom is fully sucked in and on the ground.. Extend the boom a little or tip the forks down a bit and it's not a problem Only the Gehl H model (high boom) allows operators to see both forktips.
Capability,
Most forklifts aren't capable of doing what they advertize. In that they call a boom 42 feet when it will only reach that 42 fet when the forks are directly over the tires.. IR measures the 42 feet when it's 37 inches in front of the tire.. In otherwords you don't have to drive into the building to use it at 42 feet..
In addition I can place a cube of plywood further forward than most competition in some cases by 6-7 feet further forward! It has the best pwer to weight ratio in the class and it's still capable of going to the gas station at 21 miles per hour. (competition may be as slow as 12.8 MPH )
reliability,
IR seems to have the least maintinace needs of all the brands I've sold.. You generally have to do something stupid to hurt it.. They really seem to learn lessons from every warrantee claim.. The newest forklifts I sell are better in the small details and seem to need even less maintinace than ones I sold just 4 years ago..
I want to remind you that I can't sell you a forklift and I don't stand to gain a cent no matter what brand you buy.. The above is my honest opinion based on 15 years of experiance selling telehandlers!
Now options!
Don't buy a stripper!
the cheap basic unit that most rental houses offer!
Here's what you really need to build houses and a couple of nice to have options..
Engine.
Don't think of taking the standard engine unless you only work on hard packed ground. The 90 HP engine is not turbocharged and it won't have enough power to push these thru heavy mud. You need the turbocharged version. I know, it adds almost $3500 to most forklifts.. But if you work where it gets muddy you need it (or access to a dozer to tow you out when you get stuck.. ) I also don't like the Perkins engine.. Perkins is owned by Caterpillar and you'll also find them in Cat's (then they are called perkapillars <G>) The main trouble is the engine can't be started with either. The cylinder head will blow a gasket when it's tried.. If it's cold enough and somebody tries to start a reluctant Diesel engine either is always used!
Both John Deere and Cummins offer either injection for cold start ease..
Tires!
the number one maintinace issue with any forklift is tires!
No matter what brand.. You see carpenters have this habit of using nails. nails love to find their way into tires and send the airpressure on vacation.. When the tire is only partially inflated it still looks OK.. except now when the boom is up the forklift tries to lay on it's side or stand on it's head.. neither one of which is good for it.. <G>
(average cost of a new Boom is $18,000 plus straightening out the towers it attaches to and whatver damage occured when the engine continued to run in spite of being upside down. (rumor has it engines that run upside down tend to be damaged a bit when the oil isn't in the bottom of the pan) <G>
Nails, rebar, and other stuff can cost you a tire. Maybe more
Foam on the other hand is wonderfull.. If you get a nail in a tire with foam you might want to shoot another in so the first nail doesn't get lonely. <G> I've got a few forklifts that we send out on a regular basis with a whole tire lug torn off and cords showing.. No big deal!
Get foam filled tires and never consider any forklift that requires a liquid ballast such as Calcuim cloride Unless you really like expensive repair bills and the owners won't complain about the mess!
Cold weather packages..
You'll need it in Michigan. saves wear and tear on starting, etc..
Aux hydraulics, such as side tilt forks.
Nice to have option! It allows you to keep the work platform level no matter what angle the forklift is at It also makes picking up wood off the ground easier and if you own a New Ingersol Rand you can use a swing carriage.. That allows the forklift to be at an angle & the work platform parrallel when it's not possible to get it squaRE TO THE BUILDING.. It also allows the use of attachments such as augers, brooms etc..
Enclosed Cab..
Nice option with some value other than not sitting on a cold wet seat first thing in the morning.. The guages and such will get less exposure to rain and weather and that's bound to help. In addition it provides a secure place to keep tools in when you go to lunch..
The final point.. The coldest job on the site is sitting still and operating the forklift.. heck they seldom are used long enough for the heater to work but least you are in out of the wind! But if you were to road drive it to the gas station for fuel for example you will find out what the expression wind chill means!
Lites,
OK handy and needed to road drive after dark
new VS cheap used..
When I sold brand X and brand Y and a customer rolled it, after we fixed it up we always sold it thru a broker!
we didn't want that headache coming back to haunt us!
Second never buy an ex masonary forklift.. They can take the sweet out of a forklift faster than anybody.. it's the first machine started in the morning and the last shut down at night. In the mean time they may as well have a brick on the throttle since they always have it running full tilt! It has way more hours in a week than some Carpenters will get in a year!
It's exposed to concrete dust and sand and just crud! Concrete gets slopped on it and prevents the grease fitting from being greased. (besides I think it's against a masons religion to ever use a grease gun!) <G>
BUT!! A good used forklift that was only used by a carpenter can be a great buy!
Just make sure that that was never rolled and it wasn't a ex masonary forklift that the concrete was knocked off, it repainted (with decals added to make it look proper) and new tires and a seat fitted.. Ask to see the records.. No records don't buy!
New has the advantage of newer technology and maybe a warrantee*plus usually a better interest rate.
* warrantee. No manufacture covers mechanics travel time.. So you might be required to haul it in to get it fixed.. Check.. it's importaNT!
We give full mechanics travel time plus a free replacement rental should your forklift need to be hauled in to be worked on.. We are the exception!
Your dealer is really important!
You'll want an experianced mechanic to check it over at least once a year.. It's much better to find a problem early rather than when it breaks and lets you down. Parts are a major deal.. overnight doesn't cut it.! you need the mechanic to have the part when he shows up otherwise he's on the clock when he goes back to get it..
You'll want mechanics to have experiance with the brand you own.. there is a world of differance between brands.. for example Cat uses a wierd brake fluid. If you use regular brake fluid in it (it's right on the dash where it's easy to add) you''ll soon be in doing a complete overhaul of the brakes to the tune of $2200.00 (last time I checked) JCB and Cat both use metric bolts. Ingersol Rand uses GM ATF while other brands use hydraulic fluid. Some major brands seem to change venders from month to month and it's critical that you keep the manauls in order to know which parts fit which serial numbers..
Frenchy, thanks a ton for that awesome seminar!
You better keep this one in a doc file and reprint it everytime someone asks about lifts!
I wish I had discussed all these issues before I bought mine.
blue
Blueeyeddevil.
Blame it on Tauton press. I've offered for several years to do an article .like that for them but they don't seemed interested..
Maybe you've noticed that the people at This Old House are using a Ingersol Rand forklift. I've asked several times and been told by various sources that they just came to us. In fact I don't notice IR in their credits so I assume that they either just rent them as needed or bought one..
Now I need to confess, er,... I don't know how to do what you said.. Keep it on a doc file. Can you explain in simple short words that even a 57 year old could understand how to do that?
If there is a way to avoid typing all of this over and over again I'd sure love it!! I'm both dyslexic and a hunt and peck typist. The letters always move around in my head and I need to hunt them out and use and reuse spell check a lot just to be somewhat understandable.
Frenchy, you can copy and paste your text into any word document. I saved it in wps format, but that might not be good for you.
blue
Frenchy,
The shop we bought our two IR's through just faxed us a quote on foam filling. They will come and get the machine and not charge freight. We opted to keep the same style/size tire and just get new ones and fill them with foam. I don't have the quote off the top of my head, but I think for 4 new tires (same size you posted not low profile) and foam, it was $4k. I think. That is for the VR90B and for the VR1056, we have new tires that were thrown in as part of the package when we bought it, so they will be filled and mounted.
Does that sound fair to you? I'm sick of getting flats, and the extra weight will be nice when we use the platforms. Any info you have would be great.
timuhler,
Since it's a shop that does forklifts normally you should be getting the right foam. The price is nearly twice what the factory gets for foam filled tires but considering the logistics involved in doing it it's about right.. Again if they are new tires you should be in good shape,,
One point, don't expect a smooth ride! Foam filling reduces the suspension effect on the tires and we normally install a suspension seat when we do it.. Otherwise you can get a headache just driving to the fuel station!
One other point, when you foam fill tires you lose some traction.. We compensate for that by ordering aggressive tread tires. I'm not terribly familar with the soil conditions around you so if it's normal loam (dirt) it shouldn't hurt too much at all and I wouldn't worry about it.. If it's sandy or rocky etc.. you'll never notice it.. However if it's clay or heavy clay based and you tend to slide on your Butt after a light sprinkle (like we gt around here) then you might need either aggressive tread or chains.. To my knowledge nobody makes an aggressive tread in the 13:00x24 tire size only in the low profile tire. Thus for extremely slippery conditions you might be forced to resort to chains.. It's not a big deal to put them on, I do it myself in about a 1/2 hour and I'm fat/ old and terribly out of shape..
Thank you so much for taking the time to write your comments. It was very helpful.GregT