as a carpenter of 20 some odd years ive come to some interesting conclusions , some are that working for your self has its up and down sides we all know the up sides(freedom, not working for someone who knows less than you,control over your job and quality) and a bunch of other stuff . now lets talk down side, feast or famine (ie) too much or too little work, equipment and or vehical breakdowns,injuries (and the occasional mental breakdown, altho they say you gotta be nuts to be in this buisness but thats another subject) all of wich can really screww you and your buisness Id like to hear from everyone on the subject of forming a loose
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It's called a union.
I dont think you uderstood what im proposing , its not a union, its a cooperation among independent contractors, they get together , decide the criterioir of membership and basically lookout for each other instead of competeing , all Im asking is for input that would help an idea such as this work.
Ptnbear I think I know just what you are talking about and came up with a
similar idea years ago that I still keep on a back burner as we speak. So I
guess you realize that now that I am going to tell you that I think it's really
a great idea.
However I will also tell you that their are some real hurdles to overcome
making something like that really happen. While there are several the one that
I will mention here now as soon as I say it will seem incredibly obvious to
so many of the people here.
Forming a loose confederation of independent carpenters/contractors/trade
artisans is a lot like herding cats
(do you all recall the great
EDS commercial that appeared on the Superbowl and on other football broadcasts
this past season)
It's still a good idea though and I've got to think that the pros certainly
outweigh any list of cons. In the course of my own research and development
on the concept I've even found one example of just that idea already happening
here in the northeast (New England to be specific) although when I just tried
to rundown the URL for that organization it was gone, It maybe that the organization
just lost the domain they had through not following up on their renewal or
it may be that they've gone defunct. I just don't know. There are also a few
different but still very similar ideas that have gone on in the Plumbing and
HVAC industries too.
While I don't have up-to-date URLs for all this information and these organizations
anymore I did save all that information to my own hard disk at the time so
I do still have it here somewhere it would just take me a while to collect
and reorganize.
So what are you thinking? Where are thinking of making this happen? I know
there is another online contributor who once had a similar idea too although
I think his idea lost steam because he wanted it to be a national organization
and I firmly believe it has to be regional to make it happen and work.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
jerrald.. your analogy was dead on , alot like herding cats , I m hoping to get it moving up in the white mnt area of nh
If employees do it, it's a union. If employers do it, it's illegal. There are trade associations, but they have severe legal constraints on them. They can't address anything to do with prices, wages, each others' actual jobs.... The other option would be to merge and legally become one big contracting company instead of a lot of little ones. Start by reading some business law books, and if you still want to do something like this, talk to a lawyer.
-- J.S.
" If employees do it, it's a union. If employers
do it, it's illegal."
Eh, not quite John. I think your still not getting what Ptnbear and I maybe
talking about. When you say "If employers do it,
it's illegal." I think you are then thinking of it as a form of "collusion".
I don't think this would ever qualify at all as that. For one thing if you
were to take a hundred independent contractors who all got together and set
prices and rates they still wouldn't even amount to more than a fraction of
percent of the market. While they would be setting prices for their organization
they would hardly be setting prices for the market as a whole.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
"For one thing if you were to take a hundred independent contractors who all got together and set prices and rates they still wouldn't even amount to more than a fraction of percent of the market."
Depends on the size of the market. . .
I am interested in seeing where this goes. Maybe a better idea would be "Rotary Style" member ship where no single rotary group could have the same job; then have multiple groups whose "leaders" tap others when needed.
For example, each group has (there will be some overlap, but ): One Framer, One Roofer, One Plumber, One Electrician, One HVAC, One Tile Setter, etc. They would lean on each other for help on jobs, but when one guy was sick or got in over his head, his group could contact another for support. . . .
To borrow from Jeff, call them Construction Trades Roundtables
Steelkilt Lives!
I don't see anything illegal in what he suggested. He isn't talking about fixing prices or anyother conditions about dealing with the public.
Just a known price between each other.
sure they can John.
It's called a round table discussion....
and it's done all the time.
some associations ever offer "open book" roundtables where the contractors bring in their book's and the others pick it apart and offer suggestions on how to be more profitable.
Happens on big and small scales.
Nothing illegal about it.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Most associations adopt (Robert's rule of order) in their bylaws as a guideline of or to operations.
N
W < O > E
S Bobcat
Now let's see if I've got this right, you've never spend one day in the military and don't have any children your willing to sacrifice , but want others to fight because your afraid.
Edited 3/4/2003 6:42:15 PM ET by Bobcat
Edited 3/4/2003 6:45:29 PM ET by Bobcat
An association is nothing more than a non profit corporation and it takes three different individuals to be formed.
N
W < O > E
S Bobcat
Now let's see if I've got this right, you've never spend one day in the military and don't have any children your willing to sacrifice , but want others to fight because your afraid.
The closest I've seen to what you are suggesting worked like this:
No actual association, all informal (no rules).
Had two other friends who mostly worked alone on small jobs (we lived in a very depressed area at the time). When any one of us got a job to big to do by oneself or a have-to-have-it-yesterday deal, we basically hired either or both of the other two if they weren't busy. Sometimes we paid each other by the hour and sometimes we subbed a part of the job.
Again, no requirement to hire the others, nothing other than basic respect for the others ability when we needed help. For us then, it worked.
Average Joe says:
I'll wait here while YOU go wrestle the wild alligator.
hasbeen.. this is exactly what Im talking about but on a some what larger scale based on where and how many contractors, it would be based on the actual working area(ie a particular radius convienient to the members, ) and not just hiring each other because most of us already do this, but actually looking out for each other in good times and when thes... hits the fan . You can also join together to bid on the bigger jobs
The concept is some what like a local home builded assoc to me. I have to tell you right off I would be there I'd help run the thing if you needed. The start up would be diffucult to say the least money orgn ect.... I went to a meeting in chicago last fall the North Americam Housing Contium.... pulte and all the big boys were there.... their comments when speaking in general buildings trades is the last unorginized money making opp out there we are frgamented at best .their plan take us out 1 at a time untill there's a big "3" like the auto companys. Hasen't anyone noticed all the buy outs in the past year? Mark my words change is coming then wait and see what price fixing occurs. Dont get me wrong they wont get rid of us all it would be impossible but in todays world who wants to start an automblie company to challeneg the big boys? almost impossible isnt it.
Starting an automobile company requires an outlay of capital that is many times the value of one unit produced. But building a house? You can pretty much build a house with an outlay that equals the value of one house produced (or less if you are good and lucky!!).
The large home builders will never get rid of the small builders as long as this is true. The only way to change that is to buy up the suppliers and then refuse to sell to the small builders. Doesn't sound economically feasible.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.