Hello,
As part of GC’ing my home, I am in the process of hiring a framer who will then put together a crew. He has framed many homes in the past, but it’s been several years since his last. Essentially what i would like to do,is involve some measures of accountability; place some expectations on him as we go from contract, to planing, preparation and building. However, i am uncertain how to go about this. I was hoping someone could fill me in a bit. Is there a specific process he should be following. What should i expect from him as we get close to building? Currently i’m finalizing the house plans and am expecting to begin the build beginning of March. To get started i will be taking the plans to Home Depot to get the list of materials.
I am not trying to add difficulty for him, I just want to put my mind a little more at ease by knowing that things are progressing as they should. During the framing one of the town inspectors offered to drop by and check on things a couple of times a week. Also, just to let everyone know, i have done considerable reasearch and planning, I’ve got most everything covered, including working with a builder contact who for a small fee is utilizing his resources for bidding etc.
Thanks,
DP.
Replies
In my state a contract is needed if the job is over $1500. The contract can address your concerns. Make sure there is an arbitration clause. Ask for proof of liability and workers comp insurance. I personally do not let others do my lumber take offs. Had a guy leave off the second floor once. You don't want the job to stop because you are four joists short.
To get started i will be taking the plans to Home Depot to get the list of materials.
That's a scary thought- which one of their $10/hr geniuses will be doing your takeoff? You've got two choices:
- If your "framer" is truly a framer, he can put the material list together himself, and be pretty darn close. If he cant do it, consider finding another framer.
- Take whatever list HD gives you, and add at least 50% to the cost to cover what they miss. Ohh, and don't forget to add in all the delivery charges for each time they come out with material.
Bob
<That's a scary thought- which one of their $10/hr geniuses will be doing your takeoff? You've got two choices: >
It's a $168 service they provide. They send your plans somewhere in Connecticut, wouldn't tell me exactly where, and then provide you with a takeoff in about a weeks time. They apply the $168 to materials, if you buy through them.
Thanks,
David
Do you have a regular lumber company in your area? I ask for the same reason as others, plus you may save a little money at a non-DIY limber company.
I have at least four lumber companies in my area. Each will do a lumber package take off at no charge. I use them to check my own take off. The packages are generally discounted enough to be competative with the big box stores, and the material quality is generally higher. I also take addition discounts on monthly statements per normal business procedures.
I do not frame houses for a living. The framers/builders of your area are most likely well known by you local lumber companies. They can provide you with pretty good referances for your framer.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Dave
Why do you feel you need to go to HD for any kind of pricing? It sounds like you're hiring the framer for the complete rough frame package. If that's the case, then he will provide the materials. It is highly recommended to do this anyway. Do not get involved in supplying materials for someone else. Let them be responsible for it. You'd be surprised how difficult this can be sometimes- not geting enough, getting too much, excessive culled pieces, wrong grades delivered, etc.
The rough frame package will include all the rough framing per plans, structural steel, structural connectors and flashing and installation of windows. Exterior doors can be handled by the finish carpenter.
If your framer is conciensious, he'll want to get together with the foundation contractor and agree on placement of bolts for hold downs. I always mark up the form boards myself for accurate bolt locations and let the foundation cont. place them. This, to me, is very critical in doing a quality framing job. There's nothing I hate worse then seeing framers hack up posts with chainsaws and sawzalls so that it matches a misplaced bolt. Another thing you don't want to do is to have to go back and drill and epoxy in a missed bolt.
The framer's liability is all the way through rough framing inspection and is expected to return to correct any findings from that inspection.
Good luck!
Use a lumber yard. If they have survived this long, they are likely more competitive than home depot (even on shelf items). Lumber is a commodity...prices will be very close. Engeneered lumber is also getting to be a commodity, but not yet there.
Also, delivery response is worth a lot of money when nothings happening because the materials aren't on time.
Shop for windows now. That'll help you pick a good yard.
As for the carpenter. Get a good one...make absolutely sure. A good, reliable, honest carpenter is key to just about everything. Even if it sets you back three or six months, a good carpenter is key to just about everything.
Woodside.
what i hear you saying is that as a GC you are hiring a framing lead, who will be responsible for hiring crew, who will all work for you by the hour? if that is the case the accountability is all on you the GC. the people that are working for you for wages are not taking the risk, except that by working for an inexperienced contractor they probably wont have a job very long, so do not assume accountability.
if you do not have the experience to direct and supervise the construction you should probably not be the GC. the fact that you are not doing a take off of materials on your own to at least double check what someone else might figure for you is indicative of inexperience. if i was you, i would request bids from contractors to do the work that i am not experienced in. You will probably save money in the end. if you try to time and materials a job you are not experienced in even though your labor is free you will probably lose money.
most GC's have worked in the trades, and been responsible for answering the questions you ask on a daily basis. a 3rd period apprentice knows to get the men what they need to do the work before they have to ask for it, and if it looks like they are short on framing materials he tells the foreman to order more wood. there is a typical sequence of events, and it starts with studying blueprints to estimate materials and schedule.
right on.... maybe some companies do their estimating differently....unit pricing...etc..
i build every job in my head.. and check against our historical (sometimes hysterical ) production numbers..
so the material take-off is extremely important to me and i would never trust those numbers to someone else.... lord knows i screw it up all the time.. but then it's my fault.. and not some guy working in a lumber yard office...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I agree with most of the above with the exception of the comment about the framer supplying the lumber. Not sure about other states, but we don't do it like that in my area. Maybe I could find a framer to do that, but I'm not sure I would even want him to because then, I'd be paying him to do my job. For a new home project, there is always gonna be re-orders to cover shortages, and you don't want all your lumber there at the same time anyway.
Re getting lumber from HD, it may seem odd, but they are not in the business of selling materials to home builders. They cater more to the home improvement business, and specifically DIYs. For example, if your roof is stick framed, they will likely not have the long rafter material readily available. What really drove this point for me was when I needed 33 windows for a house, and wanted to get some different quotes since I was looking for some fairly high performance windows. I told the HD commercial salesmen what I wanted and then handed him a window schedule. He was having some trouble looking up the windows in his catalogue. During my wait, he took some time out to go cut some lumber up for another customer. After a while, I told him he could FAX me a quote. A few weeks later - no quote, so I called him back. He said that he had been busy and been unable to get to it, and suggested that I just use the size of windows that were stocked in the store, but if I really wanted the quote, to give him another week... Another time, I was working for a builder who used Contractor Yard (the Commercial side of Lowes) and used the Lowes retail store for the small stuff. I needed closet hardware for 8 houses that were in trim-out. They only had enough for 5, and told me I would have to wait 2 to 3 weeks for normal store re-stock. Another time a salesmen told me that my orders would not get so screwed up if I didn't order so much materials at one time!!!!!! I could give you another 20 similar stories. And whatever savings you may get at HD or Lowes will likely be eaten by the $50 delivery charges.
As far as your initial question, I'm not really sure what kind of responsibility you are looking for the framer to assume, but work out a draw schedule such that he doesn't get his final check until after the last framing inspection (I'm assuming you are paying him and his crew by the job - not by the hour). Let him know your expectations and have a meeting or 2 with him prior to the start of framing to go over the plans and material list to make sure that you are on the same page with respect to as many details as is possible. That reminds me of something else - manage your payments to *all* your subs such that you always owe them some money, so that they don't get their final $ draw until their work is 100% complete - this will help keep your job near the top of their priority list.
A little related piece of advice is, assuming your plans are engineered, check the engineering specs carefully and often during the framing stage. Sometimes a framer and an engineer may not agree on, for example, how many jacks a long header needs, but guess who the building inspector is gonna side with...
Edited 1/8/2004 6:23:28 PM ET by DIRISHINME
Currently i'm finalizing the house plans and am expecting to begin the build beginning of March. To get started i will be taking the plans to Home Depot to get the list of materials.
This would be a mistake in my opinion. In Wash(The Tumwater Home depot), they send your plans to somewhere in Colorado to do the take offs and what the spec is a joke. As in white wood 2x4's for framing, Alex-plus for caulking hardiplank, etc. go to you full service lumber yard and have them do an ACCURATE take off(many yards leave stuff out). If you need 14' lumber, homedepot will sustitute 16' material instead. Plus, they charge for delivery, every delivery. what didn't stock, thay special order, and it costs more than you local place.
I'm not a framer and i'm having someone frame my house for me even though I could if it weren't for 5 surgeries. See his work is the best recomendation. Tell him you expect walls flat, square, plumb, straight,etc. This goes for window and door openings. What about blocking for handrails, towel bars, cabinets. Better yet, have him understand you don't want to be "extra'd to death" and ask him what he would do differently to make the job smoother/less cost
I may be out of line here (and I'm sure everyone will let me know) but from the perspective of someone who just had a large addition built - - if you're having to ask some of the questions that you are asking, you probably shouldn't be GC'ing your house.
My GC let me do a lot of the leg work, to save him time and me money. If he hadn't been on top of things, and kept me informed as to what to do, this never would have worked. When your GC says he'll need something soon, he probably means two days from now, not two weeks.
I hope you do not have a full time job. I have a P/T job, and still found it difficult at times to be available. You say one of the town inspectors has offered to drop by a couple of times a week to check -- don't count on it. My thought is the town inspector has better things to do than keep track of your house.
My GC is my nephew, a licensed builder, so I could completely trust him, and he didn't mind telling me what to do next. There's a lot more to building a house than I ever realized. Have you got all the subs lined up? Who's going to co-ordinate them? He co-ordinated who was coming in next for me. Don't forget that the plumber comes in, the electrician comes in, the plumber comes back, the electrician comes back, oh, here comes the plumber back again. The plumber doesn't just come in for two days and that's the end of him. If he hasn't been building for a while, does he still have contacts in the trades.
I hope you two sit down this month and outline exactly what you expect from each other. Time is money, If you waste his time, it's your money that will be going down the drain. Good luck with this. I wish I had spent at least six months more planning. But, until I started building, I didn't know what I didn't know.
Keep us posted. This may become interesting.........
" if you're having to ask some of the questions that you are asking, you probably shouldn't be GC'ing your house."
Not out of line at all. I was thinking the same thing.
Now, dperfe, I hope you aren't too discouraged about all this advice coming across without too much encouragement for you, but it is all realistic, based on hard experience. We are not here to beat you up on your idea and plan, but to help you out. The more specifics you provide, the more specific the advice will be. For instance, it is unclear whether you are subcontracting the framing to this guy or if you are hiring him and others on an hourly employee basis..
Excellence is its own reward!
And I spent the previous six years reading Fine Homebuilding, and the last three years reading Breaktime, so I had an appreciation for what GCs had to deal with, and how they felt about the homeowners they dealt with. So i tried really hard to avoid mistakes others had made.
I can only wish you good luck.
The framer is a subcontractor. The only reason i mentioned HD is because that's where he suggested we take the plans to get the takeoff.
-DP
Time to re-hanf that yellow warning light over his head then. It really is impossible for a professional to deal with HD and do professional work on a professional scedule, which raises the Q, "Is he really a pro".
Excellence is its own reward!
Strike one
You have limited knowledge of what is required of a general contractor. You might kiss the ball for a near sideline foul since you have the assistence of another general who is vaguely connected.
Strike two
You have hireed a framer who is rusty - out of ther loop on a lot of things so he will need oversight that you cannot provide because you don't know what to look for
Strike three - this is the big kicker -
you are taking your plans to HD for a materials list. You will need a gaurdian angel to get back to the dugout before the fans pelt you with bad hot dogs and paper cups smelling like stale beer.
Either the GC or the framer needs to know what materials to order.
If the framer doesn't know, how can he be expected to use the right piece in the right place?
Excellence is its own reward!