I’m having an issue with my framer that i would like to get some opinions on. The framer is trying to charge me an extra $2,500, he says that a poor job by the foundation sub has resulted in extra work for him. Specifically, it has to do with the measurements of the garage. He claims a 3″ difference in depth between the right side and left side of the garage has caused considerable extra work on his part.
Here’s the story in a nutshell. When he brought this to my attention, i took up the issue with the concrete sub, see: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?msg=45909.13
Anyway, I did a foundation location survey which showed no glaring issues, somethings maybe an inch off here or there but everything was square. Regarding the specific issue with the garage, the survey showed slightly over 1″ difference not the 3″ he claimed. I feel it necessary to mention that the measurements he took were for the inside of the garage whereas the surveyors measured the outside of it. Also, when i measured it (on about 5 different occasions i might add) i came up with a 2.5″ inch differential for the inside of the garage. I even had the surveyors check their work. So with this information, i with my lawyers council, did not hold back a chunk of money from the concrete guy.
Now despite the survey, the framer is insisting that he is entitled to what pretty much amounts to an extra 2 plus days of work. He insists that his measurements are right, and that having to custom fit all the rafters cost him and his crew $2,500 in extra work. I measured the suspect rafters myself and came up with about a 3/4″ differential. This seems highly excessive even if it were 2.5″ – 3″ difference, to claim that it took 2 plus days fully committed to accommodating for this supposed error seems way overboard?
Also, what further complicates matters is that up till now I’ve had a pretty good working relationship with him. He has offered his help and advice on occasion which i am very appreciative of. However, this doesn’t entitle him to what seems to me to be a significantly gratuitous amount of money. Lastly, it has been suggested by others that this may have more to do with the fact that his bid was considerably below other framers.
Advice would be greatly appreciated.
-David P.
Edited 9/19/2004 1:22 pm ET by dperfe
Replies
I remember that previous thread.
You have a somewhat complicated problem here. It is not an uncommon problem for inexperienced DIY homeowners to have when they take on being their own geneeral contractor. Part of the GCs job is to makle sure everybody does their job right - then this finger pointing is less likely.
Anyway, I don't believe you should have paid the foundation guy all his bucks for that sloppy job.
But I also don't know why it should have caused the framer this much extrea work. I wasn't there and he was so there may be reasons. when we find a foundation problem, the time to correct it is at the laying of the sils. They need to go in level and square. When you don't fix it at that point, it will compound - with intrest - and haunt you all the way up to the ridge , which is what seems to have happened here. The framer should have known better than to let it chase him when he could have put it to bed early when it was easy to do so on the ground level. Sounds to me like he made a problem worse by letting it go. It is even possible that he amplified or added to it by some errors of his own. Letting walls stand slightly off plumb can create or add to the same sort of thing. I'm not trying to indict him, just pointing out what is possible and admitting that I may be missing something in this framer's benefit, given the info reported here.
now, as you go forward, let's try to avoid more compounding of errors by finding good people to work with and by you checking their wiork before it is too late. For instance, your sheetrockers are going to want to see the studs on center and walls plumb. Check to see if the framer did that right. the cabinet guy will want to have blocking mounted in the framing in strategic locations - samer for towel bars etc. That might sometimes be an added framers job for extra cost or the GC can do it. You will need to check on the plumber, electrician, and HVAC guys to see that they don't destroy the structural work. If they do so, backcharge them and have the framer fix it.
So you may stil need a continuing relationship with the framer, unless you are going to do the backup framing jobs.
You wil need to co-ordinate painters, carpet layers, trim people, etc, etc, etc, so if you don't learn now, your problems have only just begun.
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Seems rather odd to me that the framer didnt do what is "typical" on any framing job.
Level the plates with steel or stone shims.
To me, this is typical....why wasn't it for him? Did you ask him about that?
As Piff said, "you're acting as your own contractor".
Do you recognize what that invloves?
Some HO's in my neck of the woods even hire expiditors besides contractors to be sure the job gets done in a pricise manor.
My guess is that you may have took off more than you could chew trying to save money.
This doesn't make you a stupid or bad person but it should enlighten you as to what is involved in building a house.
Doesnt help now, does it?
YOu should ask your framer why he didnt level the plates.
Depending on the size and complications of the job I can't see why the plates shimmed right would take more than a day beyond the actual stick laying and I think should have been included in his estimate.
Guess thats what you get for picking someone that low balled you....not to say it couldn't have happened with someone mid to high range in their proposal.
I think you should ask why the plates weren't shimmed to begin with....thats a whole lot easier than playing with different size studs which is absolutly insane.
Be well
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
<Seems rather odd to me that the framer didnt do what is "typical" on any framing job.
Level the plates with steel or stone shims.>
Andy, Apparently I wasn't clear with the issue on the garage. It's not a question of the sill being level or not, it is with the distance from front to back of the garage. The framer says that the right wall from front to back is 3" longer then the left wall from front to back.
Piffin,
The framer specifically attributed the additional charge to this issue. I will check plumbness of garage. I know that when he laid out the sills that he did mention instance where he had to adjust due to the foundation wall being off a bit. There are a couple of instances where the foundation wall was not perfectly straight and so the sill plate overhangs about a 1/2" - 1".
As a follow up. The concrete guy did come back and clean the mud off the sill and cut some, though not enough, expansion joints in the basement floor. Also, i did hold back $700, i probably should have held back more. Anyway, regarding the framer, one other thing to consider is that i have paid the full contract amount plus $500 toward his additional work and he still has to frame the stair and a couple of other smaller items. But as i said given the survey i have a hard time believing it cost him 2 plus days of work.
As for his work, everyone that has seen it has said he's done a good job. My forman who was on board to provide expertise (who has since left for greener pastures) said he did a good job too.
thanks for the help!
-David
Now much work did he do?
How does the bottom plate set on the foundations? How are the lenghts of the 4 sides and how square?
it's hard to tell from here what is square and what is not. Surveyors can make errors too, though they may be less porone to it than most foundation guys.
Anyways, if the foundation was off by 2.5" the sills should have been set so as to have a square astarting place. Either have 1/2"under at one corner and 2" over at another, or have it 2.5" over where the foundation was short, or shave and cut the concrete - at upcharge to you of course, or something else.
I can remember three times I have had to offset about this much to correct for foundation errors and have heard multiple stories from others. It is frustrating but not all that uncommon, nor that impossible to correct.
Like I said, the time for fixing it is at the sill where it is easy and cheap to do. On a simple rectangular job, we might be talking a few hundred at most, but at the roof line it might have been a couple grand on the outside. - all of this qualified by how much info you have or have not provided.
I would be asking the framer to explain how it was that he did not fix the out-of-square issues at the sill level and to explain why he thought that an extra 2500 was needed to cover things.
And maybe hire a project manageer or home inspector to guide you for the rest of the job. Another possibility heere is that theses guys can see that you are less than familiar with the process and are trying to take advantage of you. - or maybe just your lack of experience and expertise is causeing extra work on their parts, making it necessary to pass costs back to you.
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The amount sounds pretty high for an adjustment which is relatively simple. If the foundation is actually off 3", it might be more like $500.00 for extra effort. I framed a house in the spring where the foundation was off 1.5". I just adjusted my calculations and rolled on - no extra charge.
As a side note: I find that foundation contractors are getting sloppier and sloppier. They are using old forms way too long after they have become banged up so much that it is difficult to pour level, plumb, and square. They are also using more unskilled labor. The reason is that they are getting away with it. The contracts should be tighter up front. Framers must cover up for this, usually resulting in more expense or poor quality.
Look I'm a framer and I could care less what the mason did. I square up all the foundations and check for parallel if the foundation is off that's not my problem it's the mason(s) problem. My work is going in square and parallel especially on rafter walls. If the foundation was off 3" as the Framer says and the Framer followed it the Framer is a complete IDIOT........PERIOD!
Any good framer will never follow an foundation that's off. Of course if he followed the 3" difference in the foundation on a rafter wall it's going to create a problem with the rafters so that's why he should've never followed the foundation and tried to snap a parallel wall. If it was 3" difference then he should've brought one side in 1-1/2" and the other side out 1-1/2" to get it right this way the plates aren't sticking past the foundation a full 3" on one side.
The Framer is wrong period and now he's looking for a way out. Just take a simple measurement at the top plates of the rafters from front to back . Is there a 3" difference or not. is there a 1" difference or not.Whatever the case is it's up to the framer to snap his lines correct and parallel no one else PERIOD!
The mason is a Jerk for doing such a bad job with the foundation but as I said earlier as a Framer I could care less what the mason does my work is going in straight and any builder or mason who tells me to follow the crooked foundation can go jump off a bridge just like you should tell the framer to do............
Ask the framer why in he would follow a crooked foundation. I had a foundation years ago that was 4" out. The mason had to fix it. If the framer told you from day one to fix it and no one would then he should've told you that he would frame your house 3" difference and there would be an additional charge.
Joe Carola
Edited 9/19/2004 4:02 pm ET by Framer
Edited 9/19/2004 4:03 pm ET by Framer
Hey, Framer Joe. finally someone with some proper input to this so-called problem. And yes, I agree, the framer was a complete *#&$@%$ IDIOT.
"finally someone with some proper input to this so-called problem"
What's up with you? Don't read very well?
The problem isn't so-called. It is real!
And there were three or four of us who all said same thing, that the place to have fixed it was at the sill.
or is it your idea that the only way to make 'proper input' is to call somebody "a complete *#&$@%$ IDIOT."?
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AWWWW, QUIT YOUR SNIFFFFFIN, PIFFFFFIN
and so we have heard from the peanut gallery!
Absolute shining brilliance I tell ya!!
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
Glad to know you can see well enough to notice these things. Thank you.
Hi Joe, How you been doin'?
You raised a couple of questions in my mind there.
The humorous one first - do you suppose there are more idiotic framers or idiotic foundation guys out there?
and more seriously - I am thinking that about 2.5" is the most I would want to correct, depending on the stud sizes and whether it is a bearing wall over the correcting overhang. If it were off four inches I wouold want to require the foundation fixed first, unless perhaps if it were around back and the wall over it were a gable end non bearing wall. Six inch studs gives a little more leeway, but it can look ugly too.
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How are you Piffin, I'm doing fine.
You raised a couple of questions in my mind there.
The humorous one first - do you suppose there are more idiotic framers or idiotic foundation guys out there?
I think there's a combination of both.
and more seriously - I am thinking that about 2.5" is the most I would want to correct, depending on the stud sizes and whether it is a bearing wall over the correcting overhang. If it were off four inches I wouold want to require the foundation fixed first, unless perhaps if it were around back and the wall over it were a gable end non bearing wall. Six inch studs gives a little more leeway, but it can look ugly too.
I agree with you.The bottom line in his case since the mason didn't fix anything that there's a lot of ways to make his rafter walls parallel but he would have to make that part of the house a little out of square with the rest of the house by snapping lines in and out. Even worst case he winds up with 35' at one end and 34' 11-1/2" at the other end you would figure the rafters based on a span of 34' 11-3/4" and you would never see it.
Joe Carola
completely agree with Framer....
your last few lines in your original post indicate to me what the problem quite possibly is...under bid and and looking to take it out on an inexperienced HO that i'm sure he can try and snow over...
EVERY framing job I do is square and plumb as best as possible, block wall be damned. I had an addition recently that was 5" to long, and the "blockhead" had to come back and pour an additional footing and wall...at his expense...these things happen, and it is best to have everyting addressed upfront, as they happen...but now that it seems to be after the fact....
I say hold your ground, and don't give him a dime more untill he finishes everything that was originally bid. Maybe tell him your having another framing outfit to come in and assess the situation..a second opinion of sorts...
The problem now is gonna be a "you say/ I say" ordeal at this point...that in and of itself is a PITA...lots of wonderful "learning experiences" huh...
Edited 9/19/2004 5:01 pm ET by charlie the singing carpenter
My opinion has nothing to do with the situation with the building. It has been my observation in the past that when people see a business situation that everyone can make money simply by asking or doing less, they do.
Like a the end of a football play, everyone is piling on your project while the getting is good. Forman leaves after he gets his, foundation man sends rookies and only shows to tidy up and gets his, so the framer, after hearing it all and advising is thinking man I can get mine too! Just human nature, especially when you hire from the lower half of the barrel where they don't make that much to begin with. DanT
Framer,
I just got back from the site here's what i found. I measured the sills in the bonus space above the garage. FWIW the bonus space actually extends about 14' beyond the garage over the 1st fl. of the house. From one end of the bonus space to the other i measured a 3" difference in the sills. The whole bonus space is 35' long, the length of the garage is 21'. I checked the plumbness of the walls below and found that they could have been better plumbed. The front and back walls were off plumb about 3/8" - 1/2" per 4ft. to the bad, thus compounding the error. The house has 9' ceilings. So, had the walls been better plumbed that would have alleviated much of the error. Further had he erred this much to the good on the side that is long, i would doubt that there would be any issue with the second floor and rafters at all. Also, yes he followed the foundation wall pretty closely.
thanks,
David P.
Also, i think someone else asked this. As i recall he brought this to my attention when he began working on the second floor. He said at that time there would be an additional charge. I said nothing at the time since i didn't know what to make of the situation yet.
Edited 9/19/2004 7:12 pm ET by dperfe
Sounds from that info like he creatd his own problem. Let him eat it.
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he creatd his own problem. Let him eat it
But the HO/GC also acknowledged some changes, and the work's done ,and the framer want (probably) to move on.
So, maybe Dave P ought to go, "Look, you did this to your self, but you were following my other sub. Instead of you eating all of it, how about a 65/35 split?" And try to not negotiate past 50/50 or so. Experience costs, but so do mistakes, and since there's a little to go around for all, why not negotiate for the best for all concerned (or can get)?
He might could play sub versus sub, too. Well, Mr Framer, I can pay you, but I'll have to backcharge Mr Foundation. He's likely to remember that he had to buy some of your work. I'm not likely to be building any more houses in the next few years, but you're likely to have to work behind the foundation man again sooner than that . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
yeah, all that negiotiating depends on stuff I can't see from here and what the other side of the story might be. Sure as shootin' this guy wil be needing more help as things go along. How likely is he to keep getting guys to show upo when the stories start going around that he shorted so and so - no matter wherher true or not.
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depends on stuff I can't see from here and what the other side of the story might be
True enough--I was just thinking of the "best" advice we could give, given the facts as stated (might not be the best, but, it's like the best we can do).
Probl'y, he should have a sitdown some place (like Denny's or the tlike, & DP buys the coffe), and him, the framer and the foundation guy talk about what's best. Or maybe a burger joint for a quick lunchtime meeting. DP buys lunch to help mend some fences; all three "potential" "to blame" parties are there. Perhaps a slice of mea culpa to with that pie . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Sometimes that works - and sometimes not. I've seen the respective parties leave a sit-down like that by being thrown through the glass, so maybwe a public dinner is not the best place...
;)
It takes people skills to negotiate a sweet spot like that.
I'll nominate Hube.
cough. cough, choke, choke.
LOL
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I just wanted to let everyone know that the issues been resolved. We compromised, i gave him an extra 1k on top of the extra $500 i had previously given him. We had a short conversation it was resolved quickly with no drama.
Thanks again all for the help.
-David
I'm glad you got it worked out, and I'm glad you didn't end up paying the whole thing, although a grand still sounds kinda stiff.
In NC, the way the laws are set up, if a tradesmen presents a bill, and the receiver refuses to pay it, the tradesmen can easily place a lien against the property, which will prevent any future sales. Judges often rule for the tradesmen. I've been through this before, and ended up paying more than a grand over the "estimate", so ya didn't do soooo bad...Matt
Paid extra to the framer: DR$1500 ($500+$1000)
Hold-back from the foundation guy: CR$700
Loss to date: $800 + some sleep
Experience gained: priceless
"Loss to date: $800 + some sleep"
just to make ya feel better ..
my last big job ....
I paid the second drywall crew $800 to come back and finish what the first drywall crew thought was a finished product.
you are GC'ing for yourself ... I was GC'ing for a customer ...
in the end ... we both took an $800 hit to "make the customer happy" and keep the project rolling ...
came out of my pocket just as yours came outta yours ....
welcome to the world of running yer own show.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Mat,
just to let you know, i actually didn't have to pay him anything. Every payment he receives he signs a lean release and he signed the final one prior to seeking the additional money. Yes i agree it is still a bit stiff an extra grand and a half, but as i've said he seems like a decent guy who's been a help,and does good work so i would rather keep a good relationship.
If I recall correctly, this framer is the one who came straight off a cockeyed foundation, then claimed to have made up for the dimensional busts by cutting you a cockeyed roof frame, and needing to charge you for it.
Might be a nice guy, and it is good you can keep your relationship with him, but he's a sh*tty framer, and you should not use him again for that.
I agree with the level of his workmanship. I wonder if he read this thread, would he learn from it or go on making the same mistakes in the future? That is the measure I would use to say how crappy and whether to use him again.
One is inexperience, the other is crapy attitudes.
I can work =with the first, not with the latter.
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IMHO, any framing job begins with a careful assessment of the foundation atop which the mudsills will be laid. String, transits, levels, lasers, 100-foot tapes, calulators, paper and pencil, and the set of plans, all or most are brought to bear to get in place, shimmed as required, a mudsill arrangement that matches plans.
Right angles, exact wall lengths and offsets, and level to within whatever your gear can resolve, are the goals.
This stuff begins on the first page of the first chapter of Framing 101, right after the introduction on basic safety. It comes way before the lessons on "how to swing a hammer," or "sawing lumber."
The guy missed his calling. Maybe he become a good salesman somewhere, but to be a framer, it sounds to me like he is not capable.
Or,
He just missed class that day
This job with its headaches was the makeup work.
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I will discuss these things with him in detail... After I don't need him anymore.
Thanks again for all the help people.
Stay tuned for my next thread. Something to the extent of, "What to do with a #### concrete job", or something to that effect.
-David P.
better to look forward than back.
IMO
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I just wanted to give you guys an update. The framer has been avoiding me ever since i gave him the money(surprise, surprise) He hasn't answered or returned any of my phone calls. He doesn't answer voicemail so you can't leave a message, he only checks caller ID. I finally left an informal, friendly note on his front door reminding him that there is still work to be done. I got a rather terse message on my answering machine from him. He has conveniently forgotten that he still has a staircase to frame and several other smaller items to be done. He's certain that he's done all the work. This despite our many conversations about the staircase and other items.
I met with another framer today who comes highly recommended. We had a good meeting, he seemed very professional FWIW. He found a few other things that the other guy neglected as well. I'm thinking i may just cut the other guy loose and let this new one complete the work. I don't trust this first guy and i'm sure it would be an ordeal to get him back. I do have a very thurough contract with him, so i will be considering legal action.
- David
Edited 10/4/2004 10:30 pm ET by dperfe
You said >> I'm thinking i may just cut the other guy loose and let this new one complete the work. << Doesn't sound like you have much choice. Sorry you had to go through all this hassle. Maybe this will be the worst of your home buildiing project... Matt
the courts like notes ...
so make lotsa them!
and ... make a brief ... just the facts mam .... report of what's happened so far.
note ... the note on the door ... and the response.
then ... get a bid from the new guy ....
if time permits ... go to the magistrates first ...
but .... since it probably doesn't .... go forward with the idea of going to court.
I've been to the magistrates a coupla times on different situations ...
have always overprepared ... have always won ...
they don't want sob-stories ... they want facts ... and times .. and dates ...
I'd request the money back first thru a certified letter ...
that way ... after he doesn't pay you ... it was certified ... and the info contained "should" be admissible. He can't claim he's not read it.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
More then anything, the lesson is what is most important to come away with.
Brain surgery takes a long time to learn. But hey all I need is a scalpel and a couple of willing volunteers and I'm in business.
Look at the process and set up your system to deal with each phase of the project.
And in the end with the big picture in mind you'll have a successful operation.
And yes- Building is brain surgery- One subcontractor at a time.
We've all run into foundations that were off, and often you can cheat a little here and there and work it out. But I can see instances where you go with the foundation, and cut your rafters to fit. It takes a little longer, but if that's what it takes to give you the finish you want at the bottom of the walls, you just do it. But the fact that his walls are that far out of plumb changes this scenario a lot. That gives you a little leverage when dealing with him about the $2,500 he wants.
But the bottom line on this is just what others have said. You're not a general contractor, but you're trying to play the part of one. Now you know why GC's charge what they do. And now you know what you get when you go with someone whose bid was considerably lower than the rest. Was your concrete guy the low bidder, too?
< Was your concrete guy the low bidder, too? >
He wasn't the lowest bidder, i went with him on the recommendation of my site prep guy. He said that they work on a lot of the same new builds together. He was also disgusted with his concrete work, and felt bad for recommending him.
-David
David, we've all been through stuff like you're describing. We started out in the trades, served an apprenticeship, and learned things along the way, some the easy way, and some the hard way. And after many years we decided we knew enough to go into business for ourselves. Then we still learned things, some the easy way, some the hard way.
You decided to forgo all those years of learning and jumped in there to build a house. Now you're learning things, some the easy way, some the hard way. You look around at all the folks who you think built their houses with no problems. We all smile and shake our heads and say, "Yeah, right."
We know you have all kinds of problems building houses, no matter how long you've been in the business. But we know what to do to take care of the problems because we spent all those learning. You didn't, tho, so now you have to come to us for the answers. No problem there. We're happy to help. But you need to know that the source of all these problems is your decision to do something you really don't know how to do, build a house.
I know this probably doesn't help much. But if it helps stop others from attempting to do something they don't know how to do, maybe it's worth something.
Dperfe,
All these "woulda, coulda, shoulda"s you've received here are right on, but they don't do a thing to help you out now.
I've done a few investigative measurements in the past so let me suggest;
Get a good 8' level, check it by making a vertical line somewhere, then check the line for verticle by using the other side of the level on the same side of the line as when you marked it.
Get a 50' tape. With a helper make an as-built plan of the sill plates. Label this as-built "Sills." Measure to 1/16". Teach your helper how to "burn an inch" and "burn a foot." Measure from inside of plate to inside of plate burning an inch. Measure both diagonals from inside sill corners to inside sill corners. Use your calculator to confirm that the diagonals calulate the sides.
Leave this as-built in the truck and do it all over again. make sure that the two as-builts agree within 1/8" sides and 3/16" diagonals.
Run a string line down each plate. Space it away from the plate with two spacers cut from the same piece of wood (garuntees identical size.) Measure the distance from the string to the sill at the spacer. every 4' measure and record on your as-built the difference in distance from the sill to the string of the at spacer measurement. (+1/16...-1/4"...etc.)
Repeat for the second as-built.
Start another as-built, labeled "Plates." At each corner, measure and record the "tilt" from the sill to the top plate of both walls. Circle the measurements and note that circled measurements are "Tilts."
Now do everything on the top plates that you did on the sills. Two as-builts again.
It helps if you change procedures for each second as-built. If your helper held the dummy end of the tape the first time, the second time, you hold it. If you did the string line test after the initial measurements, this time, do it first. If you worked clockwise, work CCW.
Do not compare the as-builts during the measuring process, wait till all measurements are done. If there are any discrepancies (over 1/8") repeat another as-built till you have two that agree.
Now you will know exactly what the framer did and will know if you should pay him extra or find another framer.
SamT
Thanks Sam. I'll check it out.
-David
Is the rafter wall or span the 35' way or the 21' way?
Which ever way it is what are those measurements from the outside of the top plate to the outside of top plate measuring both ends. Forget the sills and plumbing the walls for now. What does the rafter walls measure?
If the rafter wall is the 21' way does it measure 21' on one side and 20' 9" on the other side or if it's the 35'way is it 35'on one side and 34' 9" on the other side?
I recall you saying that the sills did measure 3" difference. If that's the case the rafter walls at the top should be 3" difference if not and they're equal at the top plates or off then the framer cheated by throwing the walls out of plumb as he went up.
Again, What does the rafter wall top plates measure?????????
Joe Carola
Edited 9/20/2004 11:31 am ET by Framer
But if Escher built it....
LOL
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I frame every day for a living and work on good foundations, and bad ones.Even the best foundation guy, can ,and will make mistakes on occasion. It's not my job to make this guy look like a jerk, my job is to put up a frame, square and level, that's my expertise. It shouldn't take a decent framer more than a couple a minutes to figure out what to do.
Sometimes you have to make it a little larger, or move it a bit, but it can be fixed from day one.I am a framer, and this is what I get paid to do.I don't get paid to make the job more difficult down the road, I get paid to frame a good home, and I do.
Our industry is to busy passing the buck. Figure out what the remedy is , fix it and move on. A good framer would never create a situation where he would add two days extra work, and cut all those special rafters.To me this guy is trying to be the hero at someone else's expense.I see those types all the time.In a perfect world every foundation would be straight and level, but its not a perfect world , is it?
Still framing on crooked foundations and building great homes in Connecticut-Greg
hmmmmmmm....
Maybe the most important lesson you'll learn out of this ordeal is this...
STOP HIRING THE LOWEST FRICKIN' BIDDER!!! YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
or he could just cut the guy the check for the $2,500 ...
after all ... he's still saving millions being his own GC.
me ... I can't tell ya what's going on there ... or who should get any money ...
on principle ... I don't 100% trust the HO/GC's side of every story.
maybe the framer just got tired of someone else dropping the ball and slowing him down .. and decided to step up to the plate and charge for his time?
your lawyer told ya to pay in full the foundation guy that screwed up?
How much did that advice cost?
The foundation guy screws the job up ... and gets paid in full ...
and the framer that has to follow behind is gonna lose money?
did I real all that right.
what's next ... trim guy working for free?
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I see you're stasnding in line for that job.
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
< The foundation guy screws the job up ... and gets paid in full ...
and the framer that has to follow behind is gonna lose money?
did I real all that right.>
No, you didn't read that right. I did hold back $700 from the foundation guy. I also mentioned that the survey that was done indicated about 1" difference, NOT 3" as the framer claimed. The survey also found that everything was square. Also, as was mentioned i've so far paid him $500 OVER the contract price.
-DP
Edited 9/19/2004 8:53 pm ET by dperfe
Edited 9/19/2004 8:53 pm ET by dperfe
Edited 9/19/2004 8:58 pm ET by dperfe
I missed the $700 holdback ...
I read about the survey.
I'm not there ... so I don't know if it's 1 or 3 ...
and if that's all that's wrong.
I also don't know what directions the framer was given ...
and/or which solutions offered were taken and which were rejected.
I don't see how all these other guys can jump to any conclusions w/o being there.
too much info that we'll never have is missing.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Measure from plate to plate at both ends of the structure. What is the difference in length, 1" or 3"? If you need to hire someone to do a "survey" in order to find out the answer to that question, you are in way over your head trying to be your own GC. I feel bad for you and any subs that have to work on a job without a REAL GC.
Here's what i mean about a surveyopr making mistakes.
You and the framer and you and somebody else both measured a mistake being off of 2.5". obviously not everyione is measureing the same thing or somebody is making a mistake.
Engineers work to within thousanths of an inch.
Framers work to within a quarter inch.
Surveyors work to within an inch or so.
Who has the greater chance for error?
I still don't know exactly what is all going on there, but i can see that you are confusing yourself and that while you might have people trying to hold you up, you also appear to be trying to use them one against the other. Not a good way to end up with a quality house or to save money - either one.
If you don't hire somebody who can be on site to manage this job who knows what he is doing, you have all the makings of a disaster there. This 2500 will be just the tip of the iceberg.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I also agree with piffin...
You may want to find a GC in the area that might be bribed into stopping by your site every now and then...for a fee of course...that way, you can pick a proffesionals brain, and he can give you some pointers....at this stage, I'd highly recommend getting some solid help in your corner...that way you 've got some more of your bases covered...the tough part is finding someone that is willing to get his mits on a project already underway...I know i'd give it some pause...but it is worth looking into..
<You may want to find a GC in the area that might be bribed into stopping by your site every now and then...for a fee of course...that way, you can pick a proffesionals brain, and he can give you some pointers....at this stage, I'd highly recommend getting some solid help in your corner...that way you 've got some more of your bases covered.>
Somewhat ironically, the framer we're discussing had offered to do this a month or so ago when it was becomming apparent that my foreman was not fully committed to the project. I know he has built several homes start to finish. I did let him know that i would be interested in his help. But now as you well know, I am skeptical about his honesty.
-David
What is this 'foreman' you are talking about? what is supposed to be his job description? normally a foreman is running a crew. You obviously have no crew for him to manage so I'm really confused.
Where di dhe come from. Where was he when crete was formed - and poured - and where was he when the framers were framing??????? Did he get paid? What was he paid for?
Are the inmates running the assylum?
Are the snakes selling tickets at the zoo while the monkeys get the keepers to do tricks?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
He mentioned the "foreman" in the previous thread about the sloppy foundation work. I think the guy walked some time ago. Matt
He is a carpenter friend of mine with over 20 years experience. Originally he was to provide a lot of the expertise, as well as run a crew of several guys. These guys were from the same crew that he ran while on a previous hotel renovation job. He, his crew and I were going to do a lot of the interior work, including insulation, drywall and finish, trim, doors painting install appliances etc. I'm doing the cabinetry. Over the past 3 months he has only sporadically been involved and i knew he was distancing himself. This past week he informed me that he accepted an offer to do another renovation job for this same company. So he's effectively out of the picture. Anyway, he was not proving as knowledgable as i was expecting, he didn't pick up on any of the concrete issues. But then again he wasn't making much effort. I've also discussed him in a past thread, though can't remember when it was. If you're interested ill look for it and let you know.
- David
Never mind. Waht i was going after was trying to figure out how you keep getting into one problem after another with all this stuff. I think I'm getting the picture now. Is good help that hard to find there, that you feel like you have to settle for these guuys you've been getting or are you actively seeking the cheapest people you can find?
You don't need to answer me, but when you answer to yourself, you have some idea what you need to do now and future.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
< Never mind. Waht i was going after was trying to figure out how you keep getting into one problem after another with all this stuff. >
You know, honestly i'm frustrasted with all these problems. I'm also amazed and really left wondering how these other people i know, a couple of which are realestate agents, have gone about contracting their homes, without much difficulty, atleast that's what they've said. I'm thinking that maybe they don't really know exactly what's going on with the build. An ignorance is bliss approach. I know for certain that atleast 2 of them did not put in anywhere's near the amount of time and effort that i have.
I've also noticed that on another owner builder thread that not too many of the posters have had the issues i have had. Go figure. As for the framer, though he was cheaper he still did good work. He does a lot of work for a local builder and they've been happy with him. I think the problem extends mostly from the concrete guy. I probably should have held back more, but the survey seemed conclusive.
Also, fwiw, part of the deal with my foreman is that he owes me pretty big for getting his hog out of hock last year.
Sorry if im rambling, it's late and i'm tired.
thanks,
David
I don't know what to tell ya. You - the builder - are supposed to be catching these problems before the jobs are complete. If the foundation was 2 or 3" off, YOU should have known that before the framer ever got there... then the 2 of you coulda worked out a solution before the fact. The foundation survey is not meant to check the foundation, it just locates it on the lot. Sounds like the framer didn't catch it until he got up to the roof, which he should have, but you should been on top of things too. I don't think I'd pay him the fulll 25 bills, but I think you got a fight on your hands. Hope you don't need him for anything else...
I think you are in for a rough ride for the next several months my friend... Matt
Before the framer started he should have checked everything. If he didn't then he is an amatuer. Checking diagonals and using a level (scope/ laser) to check the foundation is mandatory . The fact that he got as far as the roof framing to find out the foundation was skewed tells me he was an amatuer. He is trying to make you eat the cost of his mistake.
A four foot level will tell you nothing on a nine foot wall. You should drop a plumb bob to get a more accurate measurement.
The surveyer should have been long gone before the foundation was poured. What is he doing there now? Surveyers do not know how to plumb and line. I doubt your framer knows how to plumb and line either.
Sounds like you are over your head there. I wonder now with all the rafters at different lengths what it looks like from the street. The ridge could be running downhill and the roof planes could look cattywhompus. I hope you don't plan on a metal roof. Sounds like your problems have only just begun.Mike Callahan, Lake Tahoe, Ca.
jeff,
as always, there's two sides to the story.
i'm with you.
i was sitting here reading all these posts and i imagined myself as that framer and how i had just followed behind the same foundation moron for 3 jobs in a row.
3 inches outta square on this one.......
2 inches outta level on that one......
til one day i just pop !
backcharges follow the trickle down theory just like anything else.
carpenter in transition
as always, there's two sides to the story.
exactly.
I've been "that guy" ... who has told the GC I need more .... then got my stuff in order and forgot to answer the phone too!
and all that time ... I was at home ... preparing my notes!
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I think the low bidder situation is the main problem, not the foundation. Some low bidders are also bottom-feeders. I wouldn't mind hearing from the framer of this house. Perhaps that would give us another perspective and make me less cynical.Les Barrett Quality Construction
Muy instinct tels me there's a story there too.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Or Less
So enough about the BS. What I'm interested in is ,what are you going to do about it! Pay the guy? Suck it up and take a $2500 hit? Or what? As a GC, I've paid for my education in just this fashion. Good luck,Your move.