No, I’m not talking about kissing Gunner LOL. What I mean is, as the crew leader/company owner, are there any things you don’t actively participate in?
The reason I ask is because I am having the toughest time keeping qualified help–either I get green helpers who can barely tote a board, or I get the 40 and over “Geritol” crowd; i.e., they can cut any roof, but they’ve all got some kind of “old injury” that means they need to stay on the ground.
On my old crew (when I was am employee) the boss just didn’t do some things, like felt the roof, nail straps, or roll housewrap out. Now, it’s not that I’m “too good” to do such things (sometimes I enjoy doing these “menial” tasks just to show the new guys that the boss can still whoop azz), it’s that some things are just not cost efficient for me to do.
So what’s your “policy” about what you do or don’t do? I ask since I just finished felting a 4,000 SF roof deck yesterday by myself, between thunderstorms (and that was after finishing the decking by myself–thanks John Carroll for Working Alone).
Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
Replies
the 40 and over "Geritol" crowd
I have no advice, but I bet that line get's some attention ;)
@@ the 40 and over "Geritol" crowd
Eh? What say? Oh. Guilty.
Does that Geritol work? Never tried any. The youngins' are drinking those caffine energy drinks. Study shows Starbucks has more caffine in their coffee.
Us old farts come with tools and good work habits. On time, every day. With tools. Had a young carpenter on the crew for a while.
Let's see. You're 26. You're in carpentry. You don't own a saw? You have to borrow the Super's saw? In fact, the box for those HD bags is still in your truck. Humm. Obviously a trade with ease of entry.
The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Maybe I oughtta try some of that Geritol. will it make me more tolerant of the guys half my age that can't move their azzes?
Neil
I have no advice, but I bet that line get's some attention ;)
Yea, no shid, I'd make a comment but Jasons still half my age, he'd just chalk it up to me being jelous, and he'd be right.
Doug
If it helps any.... I always figured you for a younger guy. Say forty-ish. View Image
Brian
You know I have listened to people on the phone and seen what people say on the net for a lot of years, I've never been right once in my whole life regarding what peoples age or looks are!
I'm figuring about now your no better at it then I am. :)
Doug
BTW, I'm more then twice Jasons age, damn it anyhow!
Yeah, I didn't realize how far off the mark I was until I went to my first Breaktime Fest at Mike Smith's in RI. We all talk to each other, sometimes daily, and in the back of our brains we're putting together this mental image of the person. My are always so far off the mark that it makes it hilarious to actually meet people.View Image
I don't know... Everytime I "talk" to you, I get that image of you tea-bagging yourself in hot tar, or what ever you said with that picture... ;)
I got a good friend up in Iowa, he's from your neck of nation, well actually he's from NY, but close.
Anyhow, hes married to a beast, the nastiest, ugliest(personality) person I ever met, but if you talked to her on the phone you'd think she was a super model.
I've been involved in full contact martial arts for 25 years and I'd run like a jr. high nerd facing the high school football star rather then square off against her, but what a voice!
Anyhow, back to Jason's problem. I dont frame so I wouldnt do any of it. :)
Doug
hey Doug ...
thread hijack.
I remembered U saying U did full contact stuff ...
here's a pic U might like
View Image
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Edited 5/7/2006 12:04 am ET by JeffBuck
Jeff
And if my memory serves me right Cory's named after a kick boxer/martial arts aficianado!
He has good form for a 4.5 year old. Probably be kicking dads azz in a few years!
Doug
good form!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Do you know of Neil Singleton? A Tae Kwan Do champion.
The short answer is no, but I did a google on him and I see he is well known in the TKD world.
I wouldnt have came in contact with any of these people, hell thats a whole nother world then the one I've been living in. Those guys lived the stuff, I just played on there worksites.
Doug
You are correct. I've met Doug and he's really about 23.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
You and I were born in the same year if'n memory serves me right.
And it was a lot longer then 23 years ago!
Doug
Yeah, but this is the internet where you can claim anything, remember?I might be too old to look good on the beach, but not too old to take a good look while on the beach!++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
I don't nail straps, but that's about it. I take that back, I don't organize the lumber pile either. But I have to add the caveat, "unless I have to," to everything that I say I don't do.
I roll felt just about every time because I rather enjoy it...plus it gives me one last chance to check the roof for nailing.
The one thing I wish I could teach other guys is to clean up while they're waiting for something, whether it be a measurement or a cut. You could shave off a couple of hours a week if everyone would do that.
Here in FL we have a tough time finding qualified help, too. And if you want qualified help with transportation you're screwed. I think the biggest problem is that most people don't see the glory in the trades anymore.
I think all of us Breaktimers should pool our money and buy a Superbowl commercial stressing the joys of being a carpenter.
Jason,
I try to lead by example and that means I do pretty much whatever needs to be done. That being said, I try to keep my guys doing the mass production..... knocking walls together, sheathing them, rolling the 'common joists', cutting 6000 2X's at XX", sheathing the roof, cutting the common rafters. It keeps them busy and productive, with a full plate of work in front of them. This gives them less chances to get distracted or 'bored' which quickly turns into unproductive. Many days go by where the only time their feet hit the dirt is to come down to take a leak or eat lunch. That's when I know I'm doing my job. I just keep loading stuff up on the forklift that's ready for assembly, booming it up, and make sure I hear nail guns firing at all times.
That frees me up to fuss with the more detailed and picky stuff like framing the stairs, running calcs for the next step, cutting the more complicated sections of the roof, doing layout, etc.
But I still push the broom, gather scrap, roll out Tyvek, and hump lumber. Sometimes all I've got to do is pick up the first 2x12x28' rafter and by the time I get back to the pile, the guys are waiting in line to pick up theirs. Lead by example.
As far as old framers go..... well.... it's a young man's game. Anyone will tell you that. But that doesn't mean that having a smart battle tested old timer on the crew wouldn't be an enormous asset to your crew. He could do all your cutting and you know it'd be spot on and organized appropriately. He could take over some of the layout for you. He could cut and frame your stairs for you. Take care of all that PIA blocking and nit-picky work. But I'd have to say that one would be enough. Someone's gotta be up there swinging their azz through the rafters. An awful lot of days I wish I had the time to do it myself instead of fussing with a set of winders or running from one end of the horses to the other all days stacking a roof.
I also believe, with all my heart, that finding good help is the hardest part of this business. Now I've got a pretty good crew and I love them to pieces, but I still stick to my guns in saying that if I could frame houses by myself, I'd do it in heartbeat. I've gone through about 15 absolute morons, 10 emotional shipwrecks, 5 drug abusers, the 8 laziest bastards on the planet and 10 egomaniacs before I settled on the three employees I currently have.
I agree with everything Diesel says. I believe if you are the boss, then you need to strap on your bags and set the pace for everyone to follow. Nothing is too small for you to do as long as everyone stays busy.
Get yourself an older guy if you can, they are invaluable. Stay away from hiring friends, or friends of employees because that never works.
Eventually everyone moves on, so keep fresh blood coming in. Hire the guy looking for a job, then if he works out get rid of a slacker. If he doesn't work out, fire him.
As far as decking and blacking in a roof by yourself, let the guy that was supposed to help you go, you obviously don't need him. Us carpenters are a dime a dozen, at leasty that's what the builders think, but really it's hard to find good help. No matter what a guy who leaves you hanging like that is not good help.Good Luck
John
Good for you, Brian!Tenacity and flexibility always win the day, and the life.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire
Jason, the only thing I won't do is lift something heavy.
Before guns came around, we had a system where the journeymen put the parts togehter and the apprentices stocked and nailed. All that's changed now. Now the machine stocks and guns nail.
Because of that, I do it all.
I did leave the hurricane straps for last and luckily the low man on the totem pole got to do it before I got to it on the last job.
I see the need for me to do everything to gain efficencys. It makes no sense to bounce guys around because I don't want to do something. For the last ten years, I've eliminated the split labor force. Everyone on the job gets to do everything. Sometimes it sounds counterproductive, but in the long haul, it's much more efficient. I don't have to stand over a one year guy and watch him layout and frame a wall because he's already been doing that since day one or week one.
Carpentry isn't rocket science and anyone with a decent amount of common sense can think the entire job through in a month or so.
blue
and anyone with a decent amount of common sense
And therein lies what is often the root of the problem......View Image
I see the need for me to do everything to gain efficencys. It makes no sense to bounce guys around because I don't want to do something. For the last ten years, I've eliminated the split labor force. Everyone on the job gets to do everything. Sometimes it sounds counterproductive, but in the long haul, it's much more efficient
I couldn't agree with you more.
I have no policy of what i do or employees do. But at 40 years old i have two employees similar to your age and attitude that they are super fast and know everything.
Reality is a different story though.
"Reality is a different story though."
I'm 39 and got a huge chuckle outta that one ...
laughed even harder at the thots of all the kids I've recently outworked!
anyone can run around and get nothing done ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"anyone can run around and get nothing done ..."LOL, at least once a week, I explain the difference between activity and progress to our help.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
don't paint ...
avoid pick and shovel if I can.. that's for the under 40 crowd that doesn't know what Geritol is...
go at most any thing else...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
avoid pick and shovel if I can..
I'll second that!
Doug
work so slow they rather you didn't hold up the entire project....
IIRC yur 50...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Definately set the pace. Set the expectation and show everyone at all times how to achieve it. There will be slackers and losers that you will hve to weed out. Let everyone know that quality and safety is your priority and show them that you are commited and if they arent interested, show them the door. You don't have to be the best, or perfect, just show everyone that you strive for it and that you expect that they follow.
Hey everyone, thanks for so many responses.
Again, I like to do everything a little every once in a while just to "set the pace" as others have called it. But if I have to stop what I'm doing to finish something else because a helper isn't pulling his/her weight, then productivity suffers.
And I don't underestimate the "veterans" in this trade; I had one guy (he's 45) come on last week that showed me several tricks, including using the Construction Master--I was more than willing to keep him despite the fact he's slower than I'd prefer. But of course, he had personal matters he had to attend to, so he's going to be out for at least a week.
And so it seems time after time...whenever we're out of work for a little while, everyone's calling, asking me when we'll have more. As soon as we get jobs lined up, suddenly no one wants to work...I guess I'm the only one who pays his bills LOL. And this is the third house in a row I've finished basically by myself. And that wouldn't hurt my feelings but I have another house from a different builder (Reference my other thread: Would you let this builder go?) that I'm supposed to start Wednesday, and it ain't looking good at this point.
Sorry for the rant; I'm sure all of you have been through this stage at one point or another. But it sure makes for a stressful day when you don't have a clue when you're gonna have help!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
After 5 surgeries, here is what I am finally starting to learn, well maybe.
1)If it costs you more to fix you body at the doctor or the chiroprators office than it would have been to pay some one else, then have had some one else do it for you.
2) if you do get hurt and you get no sympathy from the wife at home, then it really wasn't worth it.
3) If I know that I could hurt myself doing that, I'm not going to let someone else do it. I don't want them being like me in 20 years. I tell them to go and get someone to help them.
No more jack hammers, no more setting beams over head(shoulders shot) and no more footing/slab work
I've decided just recently what I won't do any more. That's go out at 9:20 am and get the crew's latte orders.
yur good to go with me...
I have this rocket fuel rated thermos that is always with me...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You can't just take away "perks" like that on a whim!The best crew I was ever on included good coffee on certain slower days...it's a great morale boost. You know a man with good coffee on a cold morning loves you.
he's just got a mean streak...
or would cruel be a better call....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Sorry again for being two weeks to reply--it's been another busy week and I'm the best man in a wedding today, so not a lot of free time.
To Blue, three of the four guys are coming from across the MS line (but our work is not too far from it) and two of the three ride together. They all know each other and have worked together before--kinda mixed blessing there as they have lots of bad (read: slow) habits. But they work well together on the flipside. The fourth is a guy out of a newspaper ad I had, and he's very reliable and is always volunteering to do new things, so I'm letting him run with it.
One of the two guys that ride together I'm still on the fence as to whether I'll keep him, as he is experienced but very limted in what he will do...i.e., every time I give him a task that requires a little heavy lifting, he feigns injury or gripes about not having a helper, and every time I give him one of the more menial tasks (like nailing straps or brick ties) he makes comments about that being underneath him, that he's not a helper. What he doesn't realize is that he IS the helper in the company's eyes, as his lack of motivation prevents me with bestowing more challenging tasks unto him.
To Gunner, no, I'll probably never be Larry Haun, but who knows? I know most here prefer custom homes but my background is with tract homes and I like the consistency of scope of work. A lot of people have lamented that there's much more money in big customs but that's just not where my heart lies, so let someone else have 'em.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
I kind of think I'd like the same thing as you if I were a framer. You can always tweak for efficency and profit if you know how it's gonna be everytime.
I got one big question. Did you say nailing brick ties???????????? Aint that the brick layers job??? Here it is anyway. Weird that the framer does it.
P.S. I'd robably lean towards dumping the eguy or giving him a serious attitude adjustment. I only see heartache down the road.
GIVE ME AN............. F!
Nope, here the framer installs the brick ties, as well as the felt on the roof. It probably works out better that way since there are no wires or pipes to penetrate if we do it.
As for the employee in question, I've pretty much decided to keep him for the time being, at least until I find someone better to replace him. He does a lot of the more mundane cutting/ nailing chores, like sills and cripples, and nailing straps. He just has a holier-than-thou attitude--he has to be right, no matter what. That kind of personality clashes with mine.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
Sometimes guys like that settle down. I find taht a little heavy handness in the begining gets more respect then the nice guy aproach. Some guys just naturaly have to push buttons to find out where they stand. They usualy mistake kindness for weakness.
GIVE ME AN............. F!
"Nope, here the framer installs the brick ties, as well as the felt on the roof. It probably works out better that way since there are no wires or pipes to penetrate if we do it."Jason,That's the reason why the framers have to put brick ties on? I know we all do things different and some framers even install the felt on the roof like you said and some even install tyvek. We don't do either but I just don't get the brick ties.Years ago when I first started framing I always went around and cut every single heat duct opening out for the hvac guys for this one builder and then when I started my own business and worked for the builder I didn't do it anymore because it had nothing to do with me.Joe Carola
"it had nothing to do with me."3except that you are less likely to demolish the joists when you make the cuts;)
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"you are less likely to demolish the joists when you make the cuts"Piffin,No joists to cut, everything is stacked and in between the joists and studs.....;-)This builder would send out his hvac guy and the guy would go around the whole house and mark every outside and inside walls and boxes with a blue crayon. On the outside box, we would cut down each side of the blue line 4-5" and just smack the box with the hammer and the piece would just fly out.The inside walls we would just cut the top plates out in-between all the studs and also the shoes/sole plates. I never did for any other builders when I worked for my old boss but for this guy he did and I wasn't doing no more. Not my job!
Joe Carola
Around here, the cutting of the heats was considered a carpenters job because of Union rules. We still do them about 80% of the time. There are several reasons why I prefer to cut and several why I'd rather not. They don't usually demolish joists, but there are other issues, mostly minor.
blue
we mostly have boilers and hydronic heat, but the sight of a HVAC guy with a sawzall is one that makes me stop and gasp for air;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Around here the HVAC guys helper usualy does it. Picture that!
GIVE ME AN............. F!
you're trying to give me a heart attack!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
LOL
GIVE ME AN............. F!
Speaking of HVAC guys, the ones they use in the "tracts" here always send out their finest meth-head teenagers to do the rough-ins. Same thing with electricians! I can remember several times where the framing/rough-in inspection failed because the HVAC's cut out an entire section of top plate to run a dryer vent, or when the electricians used a "Go-Bolt" (similar to a hold-down) hole we drilled to run wires thru.
Luckily most of the plumbers tend to be small-timers who know not to pizz the framer off, so we help each other out.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
The sound of the HVAC helper with the chainsaw bothers me normally.Like the builder said" it all gets covered and its only low income housing" What do you expect for $280,000?
.It takes all kinds......
Greg in Connecticut
I dunno why we install the brick ties, honestly, other than that is what framers have always done in my area...go figure; it's probably just another thing that the builder knows he can get the framer to do for the same SF price LOL. I know that we install the felt to keep the OSB from swelling until the roofers get there. You said you don't install the housewrap, either--we do, and I prefer to do it because then I know it's done correctly. If you saw some of the "subs" installing the vinyl on these houses, you'd know what I mean! ;-)Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
I stopped running Tyvek for the reason of poor vinyl siding installs. If for any reason the siding installer didn't do his job right, guess who he's going to point the finger at when rain/snow melt damages a house. The framer who ran the Tyvek.
I might start to do it again if the GC finds a new siding crew. I've told him about the current crews practices and he understands me wanting to limit my liability to these houses.
I only golf on days that end with a "Y".
I am 61 and don't do much framing, but I did some last year and am finding myself doing it now.
I am the one that knows all about what we are doing and where we are going, so I focus on the planning, do the layout work, most but not all the cutting, and then I assist with each wall panel makeup right before each on-deck sheath-up to get a quick check on the ROs.
I can climb, walk walls, lift and hoist, like the younger workers, but why should I?
"I can climb, walk walls, lift and hoist, like the younger workers, but why should I?"
That's pretty much my point.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
I can climb, walk walls, lift and hoist, like the younger workers, but why should I?
The simple anwer is: if you stop doing it, you'll lose the ability to do it.
blue
You are right, Blue, and that is why I try to do a little of the grunt and dare stuff, every day I can.
getting old absolutely sucks! i have tried to fight it as best i can, i keep my weight down, i exercise like a madman, and i throw myself into my work. but still it takes its toll.
i started as a carpenters apprentice in 1976 at 17 & 1/2 yrs old. in summer of 78 i was working for forman Everett Brown of Wescay Construction out of Santa Paula Ca. on a production framing crew. Everett is John Brown's son, Senior business agent for local 12?? in santa barbara county. i was everett's star apprentice, the golden haired kid. i had it made.
throughout the years i have fed my family by piece working as a framer, rake walls a specialty, roof cutter, stair builder, etc. the thing about piece working on tracts is the repitition, the reps, and the learning curve that provides. when i was an apprentice one of the journeyman said you aren't a journeyman untill you have served a number of years in each different phase. ie: you need at least a coupla years just framing walls, to totally get to the point to be able to hold your own with the likes of a larry haun etc.
in the late 80's framing in bay area ca, union job piece work, one day at lunch within a week of starting the forman came up to me and explained in detail how to frame rake walls. i didn't say a word, politely listened till he was done and then said thanks. i didn't tell him that what he had described was the same way i had done it untill about 3 shortcuts ago. he had watched me work, and he didn't get it untill a few weeks later and the times were obvious.
BTW i framed entire houses by myself, getting help only with raising walls. another crew would then come and plumb and line, and do nothing but plumb and line for at least several weeks. after a while of this as the journeyman lead on this crew you rarely even use the string, the eye develops. last year in sighting a wall the crew wouldn't believe me the 3rd piling was out by a half inch untill we pulled the string and measured. after that they trusted me.
i guess what i am trying to say is that to be a well rounded production framer in this day and age you don't get the same chance to develop the skills by repeating the same phase of a framing over and over untill you can't possibly drop any more time.
summer of 04 i fell off a wall for the first time i can remember. i was nailing tops, and noticed some nails missing in the middle. when i stopped and bent down to throw in a few spikes i lost my balance. i stood up and caught myself and then bent back down and this time i went over. i figured i would try to slow myself by catching the top of the wall. much to my surprise my feet never hit the floor, and not only was i able to catch my entire falling body weight, but i didn't drop either the hammer or 1 of the handfull of nails i was holding.
so i still do it all. as a matter of fact, at 47 yrs old, and if we did away with the nail guns i would run circles around the generation of framers who never framed a wall with a hammer instead of a gun. and just like the foreman in the 80's, the technique's i use are so different to most modern framers they don't even realize while they are watching me do it that it is a faster way!
Guys, Its time for trade people to appreciate that their crew jobs are the jobs (professions) which require skill and so justify better hourly pay than the desk sitters & clerks. Your crews should be mostly skilled people with a few grunts. They should be paid at least as much as the people selling insurance & computer stuff, etc. If you can’t get & keep those people offer higher pay. Housing prices are high enough today to justify good rates for good people. It is only the good, nearly self-sufficient employees who make you a profit.
I like doing every thing myself too, and occasionally do most of it. But, you are supposed to be business men. Business people’s primary skill & income there from is management, management of people foremost. Look around you at successful business & observe how much of the owners own time is spent doing the day-to-day work that people are buying.
Also look at the mechanics in auto dealerships & computer repair techs. They are making good wages because of their skill levels. If we want good, skilled people let’s be sure we are looking for them and paying accordingly. These are the people who will make you money by freeing your time to manage.
Try hiring better people.
Jim Andersen.
I'm not a professional builder, but having worked for others at various jobs over the years (painting, carpentry etc.) I've spent some time thinking about the boss/employee dynamic. On the one hand, I understand that I've been hired at a certain wage to do whatever the boss asks me to do. I don't expect to get handed all the easy tasks. Thats fine, it's his business and if I don't think the situation I'm in is fair, I can quit anytime. BUT, if I get handed all the heavy grunt work while the boss talks on the phone all day, I'm going to get bitter real fast. I'm not saying I'm right or wrong, I'm just telling you what happens. Thats just human nature. I've always appreciated it when the boss makes a point to do some of the crap work. It makes me feel like I'm not just a rented mule.
I've had similar experiences to snap pea.
Boss made a point on every job to tell the whole crew that he would never ask us to do anything he wouldn't do. He'd prove that often enough.
We all respected him and never had a problem doing the grunt work or "dangerous" work when that's what was needed done.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
There's a lot that could be fleshed out in your comments and that relationship between boss and help. it's one I have to ponder at times myself when I'm thinking about how to motivate this guy or that guy. not everyone responds to the same motivations so I look for the key that turns the lock on each guy.you'd see me in the mud with a shovel or end of day using a broom. I set a pace. I notice a wjhole lot less gets done on days when I just point the finger at the work and have to go do the paperwork.But the guys who are able to motivate themselves and get as much done without a push or a pull and who look for things to do and how to do better are the ones who get to stick around whjen things are slow and the ones who get the bonuses nad raises. if there is anything that gets you bitter, that's your personal problem and it is one that will keep you from getting ahead in life no matter what you work at.Here's an example - I've had at least four guys go through the same scenario I'll describe here, so it's a common one for the guys at the bottom of the ladder.The new guy with little skill is ALWAYS goi8ng to start6 at the bottom and get the sh!t work. That's the way it is. I am not going to waste a $34/hr man doing work that a $10 helper can do. That would be insane! So A guy starts and I lay out some clean up work for him, figuring that if he does that stuff OK for the next couple days, I'll have a more pleasent task ready to move him up to, maybe one where I can teaxch him something. by then I will have figured him out well enough that Iknow which of the other guys on the crew is best to pair him up with, personality and skill-wise.But after two days of #### work, when I'm ready to give him a better job, he is discouraged and calls in sick, takes off a couple days, and bytime he shows up at work again, I have a bunch more #### work that needs to be done. he doesn't realize it but he is condeming himwself to doing the fvery worst work by his own attitude. he never gets much chance to move up, because he chooses when to show up, instead of making it daily.Conversely, there are guys who show up willing to do anything, and smiling about it, putting energy into whatever it is, and paying attention. They move up quickly. I was one of those kind. Back in my wage earning days, I never took a new job but I had a raise and a better position within 2-3 weeks of starting out. most bosses are fair about that. Goood help is so rare they will bend over backwards to encourage and keep good help. you, and you alone determine whatr sort of hand you will be. If you are woking for one of the few who misuse the help, move on.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I agree with the vast majority of what your saying. As for being bitter not getting you anywhere, thats true. Like you said, if your in a situation like that, move on, and thats exactly what I do. Obviously, the relationship between employees and bosses can get complicated, and often both sides feel they're getting the short end of the stick. My original point was just that its not necessarilly having to do the cruddy work. It's when you feel like you've been left with it time and time again so your boss can quit early and go to the country club. I'm not talking about a busy guy who has a lot of work to do and a lot of tasks to delegate. I'm talking about small crews where the boss will let two guys unload a moving truck at 9 0'clock at night so he can go to the gym. Of course if you ask the boss he'll tell you why the job should have been done by 5 and he pays his employees to work so what do they care etc. etc.
Like I said, it gets complicated. I'm just giving examples and I'm sure you're not like this. You mentioned that you sweep floors etc.. As an employee, that kind of gesture means something to me.
There's several things I like about sweeping floors.It is relaxing for me
It is a way for me to inspect what everybody is doing and has been doing without acting like I am peering over their shoulders and making them nervous
It makes for a clean safe jobsite that the insurance inspectors and the homeowners love
It sets an example for crew and subs
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
well, it sets an example for MOST subs.now electricians, that's a whole nother ballgame. ;)
Barry E-Remodeler
LOL, I finally got my sparky trained. I could tell when he was getting ready to leave - picking up his stuff - so i would meet him at the door witrha broom in hand, and show him his mess. He finally got to where he would do it all by himself - and be so proud opf it, he would point is out to me!I can't think of another trade that forgets things as much as electricians.Lock out a circuit to owrk on it, finish the job, and then go home with it locked out - and everyone wondering if he intended toleave the ___ shut oiff for the night.leave tools behind - I had a bucket full of the electricians tools once. He left a new one every day.Must be something the EMFs does to perfectly good brain waves...LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
What is unfortunate today is that so many contractors do not know how to build a house from start to finish. They have never done that. Fine Homebuilding wrote that about 15% of new homes have serious flaws. They went to 406 homes in Orlando and 386 had serious flaws.
That article should be in every remodeler's sales presentation.
blue
Jim, I do try to hire "better" people, but I'm sure you know that now more than ever the trades have lost their glamour, so more and more drug addicts, slackers, illegals, etc., are entering the industry. There's less and less people entering because they want to learn a trade.
Better pay and benefits don't seem to help much either, since most helpers don't stay with anyone long enough to either qualify or to even see their first raise. I personally pay some of the highest wages for a production crew in my area, and I'm one of two that offers any kind of benefits. (Sick days, vacation, and bonuses). I also W-2 my employees instead of 1099'ing them like most in my area do.
So, my point being, there's no sense in looking for "better" help in a market in which there is so little to choose from in the first place. Not that I don't know some really, really great framers, but they're either well taken care of at their current employer, or out on their own! LOLJason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
How's the "Katrina effect" treating your labor pool? Everybody going for the big money?
Wake me up before you go-go.
Hey Jason,Thanks for starting this thread. I've learned a lot by reading all the replies, especially the ones from Piffin.
I agree totally with everything he said, it reinforced my own ideas as to what my job out there actually is.
You're a captain out there, and your job is to lead your men. Don't slack off or fool around and keep your guys respect.
Framing requires you to be a player/coach.
And the help is hard to find. Just keep looking.
Gunner, the Katrina repairs are really slowing down in Mobile, but it ain't changed our labor pool much.
I've had 3 newspaper ads in the last month--I either get 1) people with attendance problems, 2) people with drug problems, 3) people with climbing problems, or 4) young kids with no work ethic.
I may have found a decent "lead man", though....although he's got a lot of difference in his way vs. my way, he's certainly got skill. And he doesn't mind pushing himself to work up to my expectations.
Problem is, I'm getting a lot of calls for "I don't have any experience, I just need a job," or, "I'm a good cut man, but I don't like to climb." Hey, I ain't the unemployment office, and what I need most are nailers, not "cut men". LOL
Ah, always an interesting day!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
That seems to be the problem everywhere. Employees with their own rules have always baffled me. When I started out you did what you were told and that was it. I was scared to even get a drink of water most of the time.
Wake me up before you go-go.
LOL, even though I run my own company, I've helped my old boss out from time to time. I know better than to try and sneak "my way" into his program, and hey that's fine with me.
Heck, it was an unspoken rule that if you were above plate level, you had the tote man get you water--you didn't come off the joists/roof until the job was done or the day was done. Not if you wanted to keep your job.
Harsh, not really, but then again at an earlier age I was a private in Army infantry. You could either wet your pants on a road march or wait until the platoon stopped. Then you low crawled to the side of the road, got to your knees, and peed like an intern, all the while holding your rifle at the ready LOL.
Kids just need to be brought up harder!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
I started out building rail road track. You had to figure out how to do it and not miss anything. It was nuts. A big treat was salt pills. The stupidity of the times. LOL
Wake me up before you go-go.
Jason, I am not primarily a contractor. In fact, I spent 25 years running a chemical manufacturing plant; though my first love was always framing. But, working crews is primarily an employee management problem no mater the business or skill required. <!----><!----><!---->
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First I think we would all agree one of the major problems this country faces is the loss of glamour for employment in the trades. That is partly our own doing. What are we doing to hire the young people who have been told they need a college degree to succeed? Wait, I’m not saying the degree will make them a good tradesman; but those are the people who have some motivation to succeed. More than that they have some training in learning tasks and function independently. These are the people who in my dad’s post WW-2 generation went to work in the trades because it required some independent capability & rewards for a job well done. <!----><!---->
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The crew I started with & worked on 4 summers looked a lot different than those today. It was: <!----><!---->
1 crew boss<!----><!---->
2 skilled carpenters<!----><!---->
2 good working though not to independent carpenters<!----><!---->
1 novice summer employee who was willing to work & wanted to learn<!----><!---->
1 grunt summer employee, a high school coach nail driver<!----><!---->
We got things done efficiently, only one person needed to be told what to do next. But, everyone did almost everything, except the crew boss who would help tack down sheathing then let everyone else drive the nails.<!----><!---->
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What does your crew look like? If you have to tell each person what to do next everyone is wasting a lot of time. I generally agree with someone else’s post that it is often easier to do things your self than to spend time getting (or showing) some one else to do it. But, that doesn’t build a responsible work crew. <!----><!---->
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Have you tried looking for Jr. college grads. Some have really great training programs for the trades. When you find a good one you then have to invest your time in training them to the real world. You also need to work to get the composition of the crew away from mostly grunts.<!----><!---->
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Just some thoughts,<!----><!---->
Jim Andersen<!----><!---->
Jim, I agree with you about the loss of "glamour" for the trades and also that some college grads have the potential to be great tradesmen. The problem with the latter is they want the top pay to start, just because they have a diploma, instead of good financial management. They've been "trained" to think that a piece of paper entitles them to good pay. That simply isn't true...ask me how I know!
As for your description of the ideal crew, I agree also. The crew I learned the trade from was similar, although smaller. There were "tiers" of helpers who each were able to become progressively better as new hires filtered in. I know, because I made it from newbie "tote-man" to nailer/lead man in just 2 1/2 years time.
The problem I'm finding now is that new hires just don't stay long enough with any one crew to ever progress...it's like they're just biding their time and hope they get an occasional raise. To me, that's no way to go about life or a career. But then again, I'm not like 90% of my peers LOL!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
Jason,
I understand what you are saying.
"The problem I'm finding now is that new hires just don't stay long enough with any one crew to ever progress...it's like they're just biding their time and hope they get an occasional raise. To me, that's no way to go about life or a career. But then again, I'm not like 90% of my peers LOL!?
This isn't unique to construction employees. We have become a nation of mobile skills. Employees are advancing their pay level by changeing employers in all business fields instead of earning advancement with their current employer. And employer loyalty is unfortunately a thing of 3 decades ago. I suspect we as parents and/or grandparents are to a great extent responsible for that attitude. I wonder if it is reversable.
Good luck & keep hunting for the good ones. In the mean time follow the other advice in this thread & look for the retirees & part-timers who want to do construction because they enjoy the satisfaction of seeing the end results.
Jim Andersen
Hmmm...
Can't think of anything I don't do, and I've probably had more injuries than the average 55YO carpenter. Didn't know it was that common for workers to tell the boss what they don't do.
Reminds me of one guy I hired back about 1980. He knew my main line was roofing and that I was branching into additions. We had a very nice interview and he showed me pictures of some of his work. We were both well imporess3ed with each other.
Shows up monday and we ( five guys on the crew) travel out to the job and get started. I hand him a triangle of plywood for dormer sheathing and tell him run this up the ladder to Joe so he can nail it off...
he says, "I don't do roof work or ladder work"
my answer - "gee that's too bad, I think that road is thirteen miles back to where you hit the pavement..." and I never broke stride as I walked past him to the ladder and carried th3e piece up.
When I got down, he was still there, with an apology. He worked for me 2-3 years and never another problem. Even got to be half good friends.
Suppose he was testing me? I was a bit younger than he was...
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Jason,
How do you felt by yourself? Just roll it along cleats? Sheathing I can do, but once that paper starts sliding . . . Of course it probably wasn't all that steep of a pitch?
Kirk
As Piffin said so well, what a leader does depends on what makes sense in a specific situation. Sometimes it's getting dirty to show inexperienced guys what a good pace is, other times it's purposefully not doing some highly tecnical task that you really want to have done right simply to put the burden on a carpenter to see how well he does.
Remember the key to deligation is not only deligating the task, but also effectively assigning them the authority they need to get it done, the responsibility for good practices while doing it, and accountability for the final results. In general, the better you get at deligation, the less hands-on stuff you'll have to do.
Of course there is a trade off between control and size of project. On smaller projects with smaller crews it makes sense for the leader to have more hands-on contact, while larger projects can take nearly all of a leader's time in managing the project.
Perhaps the biggest variable that effects all of the above are the individual personalities and abilities that seem to vary so much in construction. Some need all the control, while some give away control when they shouldn't. Some good carpenters simply can't do some tasks well, while young snotty-nose kids might be terrific at some things. Some are self-motivated and others slack. Some want to be as good as they can, others are happy being average. Add in varying family commitments and physical abilities, and it's no wonder that interpersonal skills are so important in this business.
It's only when you aren't asking yourself the types of questions that you've posted that we would worry. :-)
I'll post this to you, Jason, but first I have to say how much I liked Blue's original post in this thread.
I'm no framer, but when I'm leading a crew, I'll do whatever I feel is most efficient, bar none. When everyone else is on a roll, and is going to stay that way, I'll sweep up, or mix mortar, or do whatever. I spend at least a little time doing every job, to set a pace, like Piffin said- and when I do it, I'll do it as fast and good as I can, and usually with a smile on my face.
There are a couple ways to think about the efficiency thing, and I try to keep both in mind.
First is a list of priorities, what's coming next, what needs to be done to prep for that, and whenever I'm not totally busy with the current work, visualizing the next few steps.
Second is to take care of the niggling little tasks that will take an inordinate amount of time to delegate and get completed to your standards. I'm not saying you can let crewmembers drag their feet and get out of the dirty jobs, but sometimes getting people to do those little jobs can really slow you down. It helps that I've almost always worked with competitive crews- ones that are paying attention to what I do and how fast I do it.zak
"so it goes"
Notice out of the 43 replies not one of them is opposed to kissing me? Bunch of fags I say. Every single one of them.
Wake me up before you go-go.
pucker up sweet cheeks
That's right. You know you want it.
Wake me up before you go-go.
As they used to say in prison, me and gunner are just like that (fingers crossed) But I am on top! DanT
Yea we do the same thing only we ride the top finger back and forth over the bottom finger.
Wake me up before you go-go.
So you're a statistician now?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Don't profess to know a lot about roofing, but the comment:
"the 40 and over "Geritol" crowd" was a low blow.
I don't think fellas are going to respond too kindly to a request for information after you've given them a metaphorical kick in the b*lls. I'm creeping up on 50 and I'm in damn fine shape. I run everyday, keep the weight off and chum around with fellas who are like-minded. We've got toughness and stamina that guys half our age can't match, plus we've learned a shortcut or two along the way. We don't do coke or drink to excess and know what starting on time means. All without the aid of Geritol, too. I know that the roofing trade can attract some pretty rough types, but respect for others will get you further in life than you can imagine.
OK, done preaching.
Cheers!
Ken
"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
Guy, I apologize if I offended you personally for that comment, but I must say you're ahead of most in this trade for a man your age!
Having said that, my comment was directed more at those who won't even attempt to do something, i.e., the "I can't" crowd. I know that with age comes more knowledge, wisdom, and pain, but the bottom line is you can either do the job or you can't...if you can't then you need to move on. If you're not willing to push yourself every day to try harder and work smarter, then you need not apply. That's why I am doing what I am at my young age--because I was willing to put forth the extra effort.
I give everyone respect at the outset--whether they keep my respect is up to them.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
The man who taught me did everything he asked others to do up until the day he retired at the age of 76. I was always there to make sure no corners were cut. The owner was paying me big bucks to make sure the job was done right. That was my responsibility.
Well, it's been a very busy week, thus I haven't been able to check BT at all.
But it's good news: I've finally found four good helpers who have experience, want to learn more, and are consistent. They're all older than me, and they value the fact that I W-2 them, pay overtime, and offer benefits. While they still have a long way to go before they really obtain peak efficiency, they all work together well.
As for work, we started a new job last Friday, and we'll finish it Monday...9 days ain't great but better than our current stats. 5 days is ideal for the size plan we're building. We'll be going to another house for the same builder, and then another after that.
I'm coming in as the third framing crew for this builder--the other two are his "loyal" framers, but they are really SLOW and this is a production tract builder, so we're already starting to prove ourselves there.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing Contractor
Congrats Jason. I hope it works out for you.
Where did you find four guys all at once?
blue
Jason
They're all older than me
I think you can get that Geritol in the bulk size! :)
Probably at Costco or Sams
Doug
how much are you paying at the bulk rate...???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Like the post after yours, I'm more a Tylanol man, Geritol aint got enough kick to help me!
just ain't right having to do both...
was sure you were tring to help...
ROAR!!!!!Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Tract homes huh? You setting the stage for becoming the next Larry Haun?
Party your Tipi off! Aug 18th,19th &20th Ask for details.
Edited 5/20/2006 9:38 pm ET by Gunner
I just framed, sheathed and roofed a house completely by myself at 50 yr old. I'm not part of the Geritol crown. It's more like the Tylenol crowd.
It sounds like said what you needed to practice. Today I go to work with the goal of running an efficient business and keeping my family life in good order. I generally know when I need to take care of the big picture instead of rolling out felt. Each day is different, and some times I have to jump in and install joist hangers so we can move onto the next phase. Take each day as it comes until your ready work in the office full time.
Joel Barto
R2 Carpentry
I've been trying to refrain from cutting checks.