Framing floor joists for other trades
Knightdiamond
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Hi Everyone.
I am new to this forum but have been a subscriber to F/H for many years. Looks like it could be a very good resource!
Thanks for listening.
Here is my issue. I remember a few years back there was an article in F/H that covered taking into consideration the other trades when building a floor. I.E. building out the space for toilets, tubs, services and the like. Does anyone recall the issue? I am building a new house and want to ensure I don’t have to go back and redo some floor joist or wall framing work. I am open to any suggestions as well.
Thank you,
KD
Replies
What you actually care about the other guy? Doesn't it go kinda like this : (framer) "screw the HVAC guy and the plumber", (plumber & HVAC) "screw the electrician, (electrician) "screw the drywall guy", (drywall guy) "screw the painter", (painter) "screw the finish guy".
I remember the article but not the issue if it comes to me I'll post it.
I'm not familiar with the issue you are talking about but this is the link to the back issues, it has the info on the articles in each issue. These issues are back issues for sale, so any that have sold out will not be listed. If its only a few years ago, the issue should be listed.
http://www.taunton.com/store/pages/backissue_fh.asp
Also, you could email one of the editors, I couldn't find something one time, no matter how many ways I tried to search and they had the answer for me in minutes.
I have been a carpenter in michigan for about 15 years and every crew I worked on took care of the other trades. For plumbing find center of drains, you need atleast 2" from center. If a joist falls within this tolerence move it over 2", and then pull 16" center , than continue with a normal lay out. For heat you can use ladders on non bearing wall. For bearing walls with double joist or micro lams , put the beam one on one off , which means you would find your wall lay out and install the beam with only one of the doubbles underneath the wall. This still gives you a bearing point but leaves about a 1 1/2 enough for cold air return. I never have had a call back as long as these rules were followed
Edited 8/11/2005 4:57 pm ET by RayJay
Maybe I'm not understanding what you are saying, but what happens at the ceiling if the beams aren't over the bearing wall? Do you end up with a soffit up there? Or are the ceiling joists the same size so it doesn't show?
Sorry I missed your question. I am new to this. In regards to your question when I said beam, I actually ment dbl floor joist. Where I live, the building inspector is a stickler for bearing points and doubble joist to be installed exactly where they are supposed to be (as well he should). Installing dbls. right under a bearing wall takes up 3 of 3 1/2" leaving only 1/2" for cold air return. When the heat guy comes in he is going to make room by cutting (hacking) the dbl joist or, worse yet microlam$$$$$$. This of coarse makes the bearing point usless. But if you move the dbl over 1 1/2" you will gain that much more, making the cut out for the cold air return 2".And the inspector is happy because you still have bearing (1 1/2" worth) under the wall , a cold air return and solid dbl or micro with no cuts in it. You will be happy because you will not have to go back and fix someons hack job.
Okay, now here's a question - do you think this is something an architect should call out on a framing plan, or run by a contractor who doesn't do it this way?
Any properly trained carpenter should know what to look for and how to deal with it. If he/she does not what to do, than they should find out. Personally I dont 't believe that the carpenter should rely on the architect to spec a floor lay out. If there is that much concern than they could design around mechanicls, but they usually rely on their skilled tades to do a proper job. Their are more ways to look out for the mechs. The tecniques I use work for me and so far the other trades. I only have had to fix a few floors that I laid out; one the home owner moved the bath room and, two because of my own math errors.
Edited 8/17/2005 12:08 am ET by RayJay
If you change the joist layout in the middle of a house, you're going to have a problem getting the edges of the plywood decking to work out properly.
Hey FastEddie Im Ray Jay good to meet you. In regards to ply wood layout you are only changing 2 joists in the floor lay out. Move the joist that is in the way over 2" then pull a 16' center, this is done so you dont get an overspan. All the other joists remain on the normal 16 center layout. Your lay out numbers might end up something like this ...16oc 16oc 14oc 16oc 2oc 16oc 160c....
Ok, it was a littlem unclear. I thought you moved the joist 2-3" and then did a new layout from there for the rest of the run.
There are a couple of places that I always look at when it comes to floor joists. I normally use a double under partitions. If a plumbing stack is going in a partition, I space the double with blocking to leave 6" for the stack. I think it's best to frame the stack wall with 2x6 so there is plenty of room. Under the tub, I frame an opening, the same as you would for a chimney, to allow working room at the drain. The toilet flange can fall between 9"&18" from the finished wall so I keep that clear. If the last joist comes close to the foundation wall, I kick it out so that there is room to get the insulation in without trouble. There are also times when I will frame openings for laundry chutes, ductwork chases and I may add an extra joist for nailing hardwood flooring close to an inside wall if the layout leaves a wide span. If there is a whirlpool or hot tub the joists can get doubled up for the added weight. Flush rather than dropped carrying beams can help with head room if 4" plumbing drains have to be run across the span of the house.
Hammer,
Thanks for your response. When you say you build a "Double" are you saying a double wall with a cavity between them? Seems costly but will provide super flexibility in stack installation. I am trying to frame a space between the joists adequate to install toilets and tubs. My toilet is on the exterior wall so I will have to take into consideration the foundation. I have thought about rotating the toilet 90 deg to an interior wall but it just is workin for me. But I thank you foir your input.
I am thinkin I really like this forum!
KD
Traditionally, I have just used a double joist under partitions that run the same way as the joists. Two joists spiked together, independent of the running center layout. This is an older way of doing floor framing and does take a few extra joists. It's not necessary and I would not do it with I-joists or floor trusses. With the use of Advantech, and similar, subflooring, the surface is much stronger than when 1/2" CDX was used and underlayment added on top of that. A partition that was sitting in the center of a joist span, on 1/2" ply, would sag over time. In the case of a plumbing stack, that has to go up through the partition, I cut some 6" blocks and spike them between the joists in a ladder like fashion approximately 24" OC. Having a 2x6 stack partition gives the plumber plenty of room if they need to use a coupling or fitting on a 3" pipe. Most of your toilet flanges are 12" to the center from the wall framing, there are no traps on a toilet so it's not a problem to elbow to the waste line. Even a joist that falls right on the flange can be cut and headed off, the same for any joist that gets in the way. I'm usually gone when the plumber and electrician come in to rough. A little forethought will save them from breaking out the sawzall.
Excellent info Hammer! Thanks. I seem to remember that 12" from the wall stat but I was wanting to be sure. Thats why I was seeking out the article. It had all that info right there.
You have helped me out a lot.
Thank you.
KD
Knightdiamond, glad I was able to help. It's always a good idea to double check with your plumber and any other sub. Toilets have been running pretty standard but there is the chance that a particular model may vary from the norm. We used to be able to count on most appliances being a certain size but there can be odd sizes or handles that stick out. It's easier to plan ahead than to fix it later.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I have always laid the toilet flange out as 12" from finished wall surface. Typically 12 1/2" from framing.
I believe that double joists under walls parallel to joists (if walls are more than 1/3 of total span) is written into the building code. TJI engineers note this and should have specific joists/beams called out on their layout plans.
Wood is Good
Adam Greisz<!----><!---->
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Edited 8/13/2005 1:48 pm ET by AdamGreisz
Thanks to all. I am getting to the bottom of this. (I think the article I referred to was actually in a competitive publication. {JLC}But I have not found it yet.) But I am working through it. I just remember there was a dimension for tubs and toilet clearances, that provides for installation (That you guys referred to) and I could not remember it. But I'll get it by golly!
Thank you.
KD
I was taught to frame with heat and plumbing in mind. Interior studs over joist for cold air returns also.
I have my framers allow for the toilet soil pipe and then, if necessary, a properly sized duct chase. They can work around the rest of the stuff. Only exception might be if you want a supply heat register centered under a window, in the toe kick below the kitchen sink or something like that.
The preceeding comment about the stack wall was a good one, but you have to know where the stack wall will be so you need your plumber to look at the plans and tell you. If the stack wall can be a wall that is perpendicular to the floor joists the double joist thing is not an issue though.
A few things we keep in mind when the framer is still on the job:
-Before the roof goes on, have the plumber run the stack through the roof sheeting so it's there w/flange for the roofer (dryer vents if upstairs can be done at this point too)
-Have HVAC locate the returns so they can be boxed out both upstairs & downstairs.
-Narrow hallways need to have the ceiling joists split in the center for hi hats/fixtures to fall in the middles. Sometimes framers keep going at 16" oc & forget about placement of a ceiling fixture & the joist happens to be right in the middle offsetting the light.
-Attic stairs location & RO framed along with locating the attic HVAC unit so they don't interfere with each other
-Notch the bottom of the studs if there's a shower pan in the shower area & install blocking (2"x8") so the shower pan fits flush & tight against the framing
-A nice set of construction stairs while the new set is made up makes all the subs very happy. Not to mention the potential buyers
-This falls a little bit before the framer, but Helping subs out........have the mason install a conduit in the foundation for the plumbing trap while he setting the forms to exit the wall if it's high iron. This saves the plumber from chipping the foundation out & someone having to concrete the hole in & out afterwards.
-The framers can nail a sheet or sections of a sheet of 3/4" plywood to the foundation wall in the basement for electric, media, vacuum, etc...if that's where it will be located. The concrete is still soft when they are framing.
Upside down marking paint is a great way to mark out kitchen layouts, bathroom fixtures, HVAC registers, etc. I like to have the Plumber & HVAC meet at the site before the framers pack up the job. Also.....blocking for drywall is sometimes overlooked by the framer & falls into resident carpentry on sites. The framers can usually install the blocking/nailers as they go.
Well, babble....babble....babble,
Good luck,
Erik
>>Narrow hallways need to have the ceiling joists split in the center for hi hats/fixtures to fall in the middles. <<
what's a "hi hat" fixture? Is that a recessed can light?
recessed can or a fixture - even the ducts should be in the center. Sometimes the returns, etc......
Fine Homebuilding issue No. 160, December 2003/January 2004, Page No. 56-61, Title: "The Well-Framed Floor"