Hello all. Been a while since I posted but I am a frequent visitor.
I am considering the possibility of a part time spot in the office as an entry level designer. We are a higher end design build firm with the boss, his wife the office mgr, a cabinet/interior designer, a draftsman, and us four carps. We generally sub the framing, but always trim and do shop work.
The designer is moving on, and boss feels it would start as part time, at least til work picks up.
I’m admittedly very green with computer drafting, but have 13 years of experience in all aspects of the trade(s). The opportunity to learn this is very pulling.
Thoughts? Offhand I don’t recall the program currently used for design.
Neither cold, nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame; but they have a reward in themselves, and they love one another.
-Benjamin Franklin
Replies
Go for it.
Can't hurt and gives you a chance to expand yourself.
It may, or may not,suit you but you will never know if you pass the chance up.
edit for sp.
Edited 4/6/2008 8:45 pm by dovetail97128
You will have the distinct advantage that you know the field work, so you know what designs won't work. I saw the movie "Charlie Wilsons War" a couple of weeks ago, and his office staff was nothing but real good lookin girls. The reason was "He can teach a girl to type, but he can't teach them to grow boobs". I bet you can learn the cad pretty well.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
if it interests you
give it a shot, looks to be a good learning experience
That's what I did six years ago. I learned a lot, but it's very different from field work. You might work on plans for a couple months and have the job fall through. After a year and a half I quit, went back to carpentering for several years. I've been back in the office designing now for two months, and I love it.
It would help if you knew a little about drafting. Can you take a course or two in the program they use? If they don't use an object-based program like Softplan, Chief Architect, or ArchiCad, it would be a great time to upgrade to it if you're going to be learning a new program anyway.
Thanks all! I think they are using Chief Architect. The last organized drafting was hand drawing objects in high school drafting class. I loved it, though. Since then it's been the usual sketches and the like for projects.
When I was my own carpenter, I would draw scale pics of decks and small projects for material list purposes. This was basically done with the tri-rule and plastic square.
The program they use is brand new to them. The last guy was new to residential but had plenty of mechanical background. He went back to that because there wasn't enough work for him. He was pretty green to send out to work with us, but always ready and willing to learn. I do know he spent considerable time training, some through a distance learning program. This is what I would assume to do.
Mike- what about this did you dislike, then go back to? And why do you love it now? Dumb Q's maybe, but it is good to be able to fall back on the field work. The two other carps on our crew (the fourth of us is a very green helper) are both mid forties, I'm 32. I'm the only one considering this move, but I honestly thought either of them would jump at the chance.
The up side is being able to do shop work or out into a project with ease at slow design times. Heck, I know I want this, but it's good to hear from folks who have made similar moves. A big concern is my lack of organizational business skills.
Thanks again for input!Neither cold, nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame; but they have a reward in themselves, and they love one another.
-Benjamin Franklin
What I grew to dislike when I first tried the office thing was that I was the office thing. The idea of a design side to the business was new, I actually applied for work as a carpenter, but have a degree in architectural engineering. They were about to advertise for a designer and weren't hiring carpenters just then, and asked if I'd like to give it a shot. I said sure.
Looking back it's comical how little I knew, and how little guidance I got from them. I was really more of a drafter but got into design too. We lost several big ($1mil or so) jobs in a row (after I spent months drawing them), layed off carpenters, and I wanted to get out of debt and buy a house but I wasn't doing it on that salary...the whole thing just kind of fizzled out.
Fast forward five years, and I had gotten my financial self in order by doing carpentry with my brother on Nantucket, come back to work as a finish carpenter at my old company but got promoted to foreman, built some cool stuff but the joy slowly drained to the point where I dreaded going to work and was physically and mentally tired all the time.
In the meantime the design business had grown, they incorporated as a separate business, gone through 6 or 8 designers, but had two good architects in the office, a very professional environment, and work out the wazoo even though the economy's in recession. While I was away the business had matured, and my design skills had grown doing side jobs.
We each work independently but collaborate on bigger jobs. I'm designing a new house, a big addition/remodel, and starting another new house, along with project managing a couple kitchen remodels. Suffice to say it's still very busy but fun, working with other people of the same mindset.
Eventually I'll probably burn out on this, that's my pattern, work really hard at one thing until I need to do something else. We'll see though. I'd like to start my own business again (self-employed woodworker in Boston and Nantucket through my 20's) or maybe do business development within this company.
Anyway, long-winded answer but you sound just like me a few years ago so if there's anything I can tell you let me know--
Oh, one other thing, it is nice to be able to work with at least some people roughly your own age, which wasn't the case in the office before, but it is now.
hooker...
<<<<
I am considering the possibility of a part time spot in the office as an entry level designer. We are a higher end design build firm with the boss, his wife the office mgr, a cabinet/interior designer, a draftsman, and us four carps. We generally sub the framing, but always trim and do shop work.
The designer is moving on, and boss feels it would start as part time, at least til work picks up.>>>
if it's Chief Architect ( or Softplan.. or Vectorworks... or Envisioneer... or AutoCad.....etc )
you'll need extensive training to become proficient..... most training is doen now with DVD's ( tutorials ) or online training...
if your boss has the tutorial dvd's then that is where you start..
but ... you don't say wether you are going to be doing interior design & cabinets or whole house design
if it's whole house... you also need a base in architectural design & drafting...
what does the company do ? build houses? remodel ? kitchens ? baths ?
if you give a little more background , we can develop a strategy for developing into a full fledged designer
is you company on Macs or PC's ?
what is the software ?
what do they have for in-house training ?
and...
what would you be designing ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thank you all for the response!
Specifically, let me start here. My company is usually a high end new home builder that has always had remarkable success as long as I could remember. I have worked here for almost four years, after a brief self employment stint. Fairly young (32), I started in carpentry nearly 14 years ago, all full time.
The "designer" position here is mainly geared toward new home or extensive remodel construction. I am still unsure of the software, but home plans would be the initial starting point. I do feel cabinet and interior design plans may be in the close future, however.
I have several ideas for the potential of this position, most of which aiming heavily toward drafting but also job-management, super roles. I feel this is a weak link in our company, as i feel the boss, a great guy and employer, may lack in certain areas of management.
I would ultimately be designing whole house plans, usually from scratch, with a potential interior design/cabinet finish. I see this position, with the right person, could help the company increase efficiency and dollars, helping everyone.
As said before, I'm very green to design. There is a new program at the local tech on architectual design and drafting that I'm very interested in. I'll be checking into that very soon. For now, my training would be via tutorials and practice. Not so sure of a time line as of yet, since we have several nice jobs to be finished on the forefront. I look forward to the opportunities as they develop.
Thanks again! I won't be back til the evening, so thanks for the responses!Neither cold, nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame; but they have a reward in themselves, and they love one another.
-Benjamin Franklin
hook....
<<<
As said before, I'm very green to design. There is a new program at the local tech on architectual design and drafting that I'm very interested in. I'll be checking into that very soon. For now, my training would be via tutorials and practice. Not so sure of a time line as of yet, since we have several nice jobs to be finished on the forefront. I look forward to the opportunities as they develop.>>>>
the software program will eventually be learned.... but none of the CAD programs teach design or structure
i'd say the tech course in Architectural Design & drafting would be more valuable than the CAD... amazing what a couple semesters will open your eyes to
it's all about what we don't know....and we never even knew that we didn't know itMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
usually from scratch
The longer you're in it, the more you'll be able to draw from past designs. Most clients don't realize how much of their unique plans are recycled. Some architects go so far as to share plans and resell designs over and over as unique to unsespecting clients.
The worst case I know of was a pair of 8k sqft houses on a remote windy ridge, 300' apart in Wyoming. The Colorado arch didn't realize they would be anywhere near each other, let alone on the same ridge, and were mirror images. Clients were upset to say the least.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
"I'm the only one considering this move, but I honestly thought either of them would jump at the chance."I think I can speak for the older guys that aren't jumping at the chance. They see themselves as carpenters. They probably know that they wouldn't fit into the office scene and the entire idea seems rather foreign to them. I was the same way at 30 or 40, even 50. You couldn't have got me into that office with a shotgun. On the other hand, you actually want to make the move. Don't let fear of the unknown stop you. Your employers will benefit from the experience in several ways. First, they won't have to find someone full time which they can't afford. Second, they won't have to find someone part time that they won't be able to find. Third, you are a known entity to them so they will feel comfortable dealing with all the issues surrounding the new office program. Mike is right about the learning curve of Chief Architect. I'm a new user myself. My long career in the field was basically useless as a new user to the program. I also had basic experience doing small drawings during my career, the same as you have mentioned but it really didn't help me much as I got into the CA program. Mike has suggested the tutorials as a starting point. I agree with him. I didn't do them, instead preferring to struggle through the trial and error method of opening every tool and figuring out what it does. I'm significantly behind where I could be if I had systematically applied the same amount of time watching those tutorials. It's okay that I'm significantly behind though because we aren't actually counting on me to do all the drawings. I only wanted the program for simple drawings. We'll use a real architect for anything "major". They will be counting on you, so it will be very important for you to put in some serious study time, on and off the job to get up to speed. I tried some one on one training. It didn't do much for me. Perhaps it would be better now that I've made further inroads into the program. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
There's nothing better than a designer who knows what will work and what won't, IMHO. I can't tell you how many house plans I get that simply will not work.There's more of a learning curve than you would expect. You'll get people that don't want to listen to you, for instance. their Brother's 2nd cousin said to do this, and they don't want to hear any different.Dealing with the customers is a good education in itself. Like many of the other, I say give it a try. Expand your horizons a bit and see what happens. And be sure to post back to let us know how it goes.
Old skiers never die - they just go downhill.
Sounds like a great opportunity to me. In my job I have a ratio of about 30% office and 70% field work. It's great to have office work on rain days. :-) I see by looking at your profile you are fairly young. Like it or not, one of these days you won't be up for getting those 40 sheets of sheathing up on the roof. Might as well exapnd your horizions now. I have only been involved in design work a little, but have found it very satisfying to start by generating a conceptual drawing and end up with structure.
If I were you, I'd jump at the chance!
How old are you? If you don't already, you will someday see the value of a position in the business that's easier on your body. I moved into project management rather than design, and wish I had some solid CAD-type skills, which I could definitely use. My role is now about 50% PM and 50% field and the older I get the less field I am likely to do. You want options.....
I'd say you have nothing to lose! You'll be a step up on the food chain and knowing more generally provides more job security and long-term financial gain then knowing less.
I always see good finish carps who continually evaluate, build, modify and at times totally redesign plans drawn up by architects and designers. That experience is valuable when making the jump to designing.
As you know, the term "designer" is as broad as "carpenter" with most of us settling into niches that have design elements which more or less repeat to a large degree. Those who poo poo your idea as being too unrealistic are failing to recognize this jump can be quite manageable if the scope is kept narrow enough.
The rate of change of change is increasing, and there is no excuse for someone at the top of this or any building profession to blame a lack of support or training on their employer. We all have to be good self learners, even if that is to recognize we need to take a class, read more books, hire a part time tutor, or what have you to maximize the learning process. Getting up to speed in the drafting program will be your biggest hurtle early on, and it's hard to be a good designer if 70% of your time is spent figuring out how to manipulate the program, rather than focusing on the actual design.
Best of luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Sounds like a step up to me. Having field experience should help you.
Keep in mind however that "designing" and "drafting" are two slightly different things. I do both and when I'm being creative developing initial concepts (the "design" end), I don't use a computer. I use bumwad and a pencil. Most creative ideas of designers start out that way and then are computerized for further design development. After that of course a draftsman takes over to generate the technical documents.
I tell everyone if I had the very best word processing program in the world with all the bells and whistles, it isn't going to make me an Ernest Hemingway as the creative ideas come out of my head. Once initial concepts are set I go to a computer, but only then. Also in working with clients I find it much easier in a design "charette" setting to have a working session exploring different concepts with copious overlays of tracing paper on a table or all pinned up on a wall. Having four people look at a computer screen doing that is a little cumbersome.
The best of luck.
Runnerguy
I think the cad skills are really a great thing to have so I'll weigh in as one of the "go for it" crowd. Personally, I've always been interested in staying interested in whatever it is I'm doing and just building other people's houses and designs was starting to get boring. So I bought chief architect about a year and a half ago and now I'm building my own designs. Thank existence for cad though, on account of I would never have had the patience to draft plans by hand, thereby missing out on the design/build experience.
I don't know about the other programs but Chief is remarkably easy to pick up. You buy the training videos and learn as you go. Nothing more than the desire to figure out how the thing works is required. And they've tried to simplify it as much as they currently know how.
Thinking up the stuff you're building is about as much fun as I can imagine when it comes to any job related activity. I wouldn't want to be designing things full time though. Doing the entire deal from conception to finish provides a level of satisfaction that can't be beat. Plus, man is not made to sit on our #### all day and be happy about it. We're made to move.