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Frost build up on windows

LCBuck | Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on January 8, 2014 10:35am

We built our new home last year and insulated with spray foam and installed Anderson 400 series windows.

we also have a humidifier and air exchanger.

Our windows have been accumulating frost on the inside.

I attached two pictures…..

picture 1 is the ice build up i had last night

picture 2 is what i found this morning

We live in northern MN and they have been like this since Nov, any advice?

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  1. calvin | Jan 08, 2014 10:56am | #1

    LC (post #209106, reply #1 of 1)

    by

    Moderator Badge

    calvin in reply to LCBuck [original] on Wed, 01/08/2014 - 11:52

    Northern Minnesota?

    I'd say normal.  The difference in the cold outside and the heat inside and then Perry's dew pt. thing..............condensation-with minus degrees-frozen condensation.

    Not much you can do except wipe it off when it thaws.

    What type of heat, do you have blinds or curtains you close over the windows at night or when super cold, plants, pasta cooking............good as well as used and let run after use-bath vents to outside...........lessee, that should about do it.

    Whats the indoor humidity reading?  A new house will give off quite a bit of moisture as drywall/paint and concrete dry out.

    Here with radiant infloor heating-humidity around 35%, in the hight teens we'll get moisture on the bottom 1/2" of the glass.   When it went down to below zero a few days ago-it froze, thawing during the sun on south facing windows.

    It's a fact of life in the frozen north.

    A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.

    Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

    http://www.quittintime.com/

    1. LCBuck | Jan 08, 2014 11:57am | #2

      We have a gas boiler with in floor heat......

      Glad to hear that this just might be "facts of life" in Northern MN.

      Should i be worried about any window damage as a results?

      1. calvin | Jan 08, 2014 03:31pm | #4

        LC

        I'm in NW Oh., recently experiencing your normal temperatures for the winter.

        The in floor heat is one situation that keeps air movement to a minimum and with the absence of heat registers below the windows (forced air), there's likely not to be air washing past the glass.  In our great room we have a ceiling fan that's kept on low with the blade rotation set to wash down the walls.  This helps somewhat in the midrange cold we usually get. 

        This weeks sub-zero highs beat that system, ice formed at night much like your pictures.  In the sun, melted pretty quickly but the moisture is there.

        Today, it's about 15-no sun and no condensation with the indoor humidity reading about 28.  The wife watered a considerable number of plants yesterday.  Chairs loosen up if it stays in the below 30 humidity long.  Grandkids here next week so there'll be more exhaling going on, should bring it up.

        Damage to the sash or frame?  Possibly.  I'd wipe off the moisture as often as you can.  Make sure they stay sealed-looks like you've got a good finish now.   Keep the dirt off the sash-at the glass-as this holds moisture that "could" make it's way down past the glass seal.

        Where in Minnesota?   My mothers family were from Chisholm-visited there often when young-haven't been back in 20 years.............maybe 30.  Drove the jeep up one of the mine piles for fun.

        1. LCBuck | Jan 08, 2014 03:50pm | #5

          Thank you, we are not too far away in Bemidji :)  Hopefully if you make it back up you decide to come when it is a little warmer!

          1. calvin | Jan 08, 2014 04:21pm | #6

            LC

            Bemidji, I remember the name-perhaps another relative was from there.

            Spent a couple summers there in the 60's and other holiday visits while my mother was alive.  Her family (my grandparents) arrived there after emigrating from Slovenia in the late 1800's.   Instead of working the mines, they opened a meat market and grocery.   A great grandson still follows in the business, though way bigger than the neighborhood store.   However, his grandfathers sausage recipe is still being produced.

            That market had a sign proudly proclaiming that it contained "everything but the squeal".

            How's the fishing?

        2. kxm1 | Feb 01, 2014 02:46pm | #14

          triple pane...

          ...high performance (and very expensive) windows would be a better choice for building in such cold areas, but it would be awfully expensive to retro all the windows in your house.

          Interior storms or heat shrink plastic on the inside would certainly reduce the condensation-might even eliminate it.

          Calvin's fan idea should also help.

  2. User avater
    Perry525 | Jan 08, 2014 12:51pm | #3

    Condensation, ice.

    No.

    Happy New Year!

  3. DanH | Jan 08, 2014 07:23pm | #7

    Given the weather recently that's perfectly normal.  We live down near Rochester and I wish our windows looked as good as yours.

    (Wipe the moisture off with a paper towel when it thaws tomorrow or Friday, and come spring treat the wood with furniture oil (though try to keep the oil off the glass and sealant).)

  4. mastedon | Jan 10, 2014 07:45am | #8

    I wouldn't say this is normal with Anderson 400 series windows even in the northern climates.  This is a sign that the humidifier is set too high. 

    - dave (mechanical engineer)

    1. calvin | Jan 10, 2014 07:55am | #9

      Dave

      Do you work for Andersen?

      Do you live in a cold climate?

      What humidity reading do you think would be considered too high?

      Thanks.

      1. kxm1 | Feb 02, 2014 09:54am | #19

        andersen is pretty good...

        ... at supplying info about their products. you may be able to get some input from them on this subject that would possibly shed some new light.

        maybe, maybe not....could be worth an email to them...

  5. DanH | Jan 10, 2014 08:07am | #10

    I assume that the problem has cleared up by now.  Be sure to wipe down the bottom edges of all your sashes.

    1. LCBuck | Jan 10, 2014 09:05am | #11

      yes, this problem definitely only comes with the temperature changes.......

      What would be a "normal" house humidity?

      1. calvin | Jan 10, 2014 11:23am | #12

        LC

        Normal?

        Beats me, but here anything around 35 is comfortable and doesn't lead to mitres attempting to open or chairs trying to come apart.

      2. DanH | Jan 10, 2014 07:10pm | #13

        House humidity needs to be adjusted based on outside temp.  (In fact, we have a humidistat that factors in outside temp, though it doesn't work all that well.)

        One chart I have:

        -20F -- 15%

        -10F -- 20%

           0F -- 25%

         10F -- 30%

         20F -- 35%

        Over 20F -- 40%

        This is just a guideline, though -- every house differs based on the construction, the quality of windows, etc.  Basically you adjust up or down from the guideline based on how much window condensation you get at colder temps.  (What you're seeing is "about right".)

        The biggest problems occur when the temperature drops suddenly (this is one area where our "smart" humidistat isn't so smart). Ideally you anticipate such drops and turn down the humidistat 12-24 hours in advance.

        1. kxm1 | Feb 01, 2014 02:53pm | #15

          yup...

          ...a great device dan but how do you factor in the water vapor introduced by daily activities within the house---showering, cooking being the largest contribution factors?

          1. DanH | Feb 01, 2014 06:34pm | #16

            Well, the humidistat doesn't give a rip where the humidity comes from.  It obviously can't do anything to prevent those other activities from making humidity too high, but if your house is older than ca 1985 that's not a problem.

          2. kxm1 | Feb 01, 2014 08:51pm | #17

            i am interested in...

            ...your comments on your experience with the smart humidistat.

            i have no experience with those in residential apps....have never lived in a real cold climate!

          3. DanH | Feb 02, 2014 08:19am | #18

            The "smart" humidistat simply

            The "smart" humidistat simply has a connection to an outdoor temperature probe, so it can adjust its setting downward when the temperature drops.  A better one would remember the lowest temperature of the past 24 hours and adjust based on that, and an ideal one would somehow (internet connection?) "read" the weather forecast and adjust based on anticipated temperature.

            But the one we have works pretty well.

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