Hello to all. We are working on a 3 story home. The second story outside wall at the gable end has two double hung windows which we have to replace with bay windows. I haven’t opened the walls yet but I believe the existing framing is as follows. The house is platform framed with a center beam perpendicular to the gable end. The joist run parallel to the gable end resting on the eaves walls and lapping the center beam. The beam ends in a pocket on the wall the two windows are in. Abouve the wall I need to open is the third story which is the actual sloped gable end wall. I was taught to support the above ceiling/floor joist with temporary supports but this would appear to only remove the load from the eave wall and the center beam. How can I support the load above on the gable end so I can cut and frame my rough openings? Thanks to all.
Richie
Replies
Why don't you open up the interior wall to see exactly what you are dealing with? Will the new bay window fit in the space originally framed for the two double hungs or are the two double hungs really separate and spaced on either side of the gable center? Will the new bay window(s) be centered under the beam or are there two separate windows to go left and right of the center? Will you be interupting the load path under the center beam? Can you use the center beam load path as one half of each header support if the new windows will be left and/or right of center? Will you have an adequate load path on the other end of the header(s)? If you are centering the new window under the beam can you assure a transfer of the load path to the left and right down thru the first floor? Any non-headered openings down below that would interrupt the load path?
Back to your question of support - If you are not placing the new headered opening where the beam has its current load path then the wall left and right of the beam could most likely be opened and framed with no additional support necessary. The gable end, except for the load path under the beam, is for all practical purposes, a non-load bearing wall which would be kept sufficiently stiff by it sheathing, exterior cladding and some of the interior wallboard. Your new headered framing will be enough to keep the relatively small weight from bowing the new opening and transfer that weight to the framing below.
If you are placing the new headered opening in the beam load path then the beam itself should be supported so that you still have room to work and then a new header calculated to support the end of the beam and transfer the load left and right downward thru the lower framing. Unfortunately, you don't know what the lower framing is other that the center load path. Hopefully, you won't have to open up the first floor to place additional studs or mess with the foundation below. In this case it would be prudent or even required by the powers that be to have an engineer's stamp on the project. Here in Florida we don't have a choice. Engineer's stamp on everthing.
Ralph,
Thanks for the response. The two double hungs are on either end of the wall. The two bays are going on either side of the center beam so I don't have to touch any of the beams support in the wall and thus won't be altering the load path for the beam. I'm going to precut everything and, like you said, cut out the old and put my framing in to prevent the opening from sagging. Again, thanks for taking the time.
Richie
Just opened part of the wall to check my presumptions. Everything was accurate EXCEPT...the wall is balloon framed. Argh!!! Anyone have tips for working on balloon framing. There are openings on the first floor with existing headers which will be under my openings. What is the most efficient way to frame in this situation? Can my jacks terminate on top of the first floor headers? I was considering using existing studs, oversizing the opening, as the kings with jacks adjacent to the kings terminating on the 1st floor sill plate or 1st floor header below and then a second pair of jacks forming the needed rough opening width. I'm also concerned about making sure the headers on the 1st floor are big enough for this situation. Any advise?
Richie
A friwend asked his boss how he deals with balloon framing and he gave the following advise. First remove all the plaster from the wall and support the framing with a whaler. Then about a foot off the floor (to provide room fro renailing as I will explain), cut 3 inches out of each stud in the wall up to and including the studs which will be used as the king studs level across the wall. Nail 2 2x4s together long enough to extend to the next uncut stud on either side. Slip this piece into the 3 inch space prviously cut out. Toenail the original studs abouve and below to the doubled 2x4 and nail through the uncut stud on either end into the doubled 2x4. Now frame the r.o as if the house were platform framed using the doubled 2x4 as the "bottom plate" for the jacks and crpples. Since all the old and new studs except the jacks line up directly with the old below, all loads are transferred directly through the doubled 2x4. Soung good?
Richie
RICHIE921,
That sounds like a good idea, you could also use a 4x4 or 4x6 if your not comfortable with 2-2x4s and just alow for the thickness of either one.
The way I do bay windows old or new framing, let's say the rough opening is 5' ht I would make the rough opening 4' bigger 5'-4" ht because I scribe the bottom of the bay window on a sheat of 1/2 plywood adding for the thicness of the 2x4 wall.
Then I build a 2x4 on edge box, doubling where the brackets will be, nail that on top of your 4x4 or 4x6 which is 4' bigger in the rough opening, once thats nailed in then I nail the 1/2 plywood on top.
Put a couple of temporary supports under the box to keep it level.
You can use a 2x6 box if you want, it all depends what your going to use to finish off the front of the bay.
Using a 2x4 box you can wrap it with 1x6 pine or what ever type of wood you want.
Using a 2x6 box you can wrap it with 1x8.
This allows you to insulate it and put what ever you want on the bottom to finish it off later.
Now you set set up pump jacks and put the bay window on the scaffold and jack it up just above your box and slide the bay window right in and nail it up.
Might sound a little crazy but I've done it quite a few times.
Anderson windows have the cable system that you bolt right into your 2x12 header. Does the window that your using have that system?
And how are you going to frame the roof on top of the window?
Even with the cable system I like to use brackets.
Hope this helps, let me know.
Joe Carola.
Joe,
Thanks for the response. I am intrigued by your method and am going to try it. Just to clarify. Are you saying that you use vertical 2x4s to make the shape of the bay plus the depth of the wall and insert this into the r.o. on the rough sill? How do you attach it? Toenails to the rough sill? As far as finishing abouve the widow, there is an overhang separating the second and third floors. I am going to attach the cables to the studs above the header. Then, if the window projects less than the overhang, I am going to frame the shape of the widow with 2x2s letting it die into the soffit above, shethe it, and side it. If it projects more than the soffit, I am going to fasten 2x4s to the top outside edge of the window and frame a "hip" anove the window and sheathe then shingle it. How do you do it? I am always open to new methods.
Richie
Richie,
Yes I do use the 2x4s verticle to make the shape of the bay plus the depth of the wall. I use the 1/2 plywood as the pattern to cut my 2x4s.
I do insert it in the rough opening on the rough sill and toenail it to the rough sill.
I also nail inside corner hangers to the top of the box and into the jacks/trimmers/or liners as we call them in New Jersey ;-)
Window projects less than the overhang I do it the same way you do.
Window projects more than the overhang. It all depends how much, if it's a couple of inches than you can incorporate something into your siding, maybe like a Water table, a Drip Edge.
If it's a significant amount than you might have to build a roof.
Alot has to do with what type of siding you have to.
What is the space between the top of the bay and the bottom of your overhang?
That also can determine what you do.
Let me know.
Joe Carola
Joe,
The windows won't be in for a couple of weeks but I will definitely let you know once I have them. Thanks again.
Richie
Joe,
After planning the framing for the wall, I realized I am only going to NOT cut about 3-5 of the existing studs. Should this be a concern? I am not too concerned about the vertical loads which will transfer directly or be caught by the headers. What about the integrity of the wall (racking, etc...)? The wall is sheathed with 1x tongue and groove. Also, how much weight is actually on the cable support syatem? Need I worry about the force pulling away from the wall through the cable sysyem? When framing, should I use metal connectors or should toe and end nailing be sufficient. This may be where your additional support below may help. What do you use for this? Finally, to avoid short cripples, can I cut the groove into which I am inserting the doubled 2x4 vertically at the height of the rough sill and use it as the sill? Thanks,
Richie
Richie,
First question, the answer is no.
Second question, not if you install the window the right way.
Third question, I can't give you the actual weight, but if you put the platform in like I do first that takes alot of weight off the cables.
Forth question, no need to worry about the cables pulling away from the wall.
Fifth question, you can use the inside corner joist hangers on top of the platform like I explained in my last post. And toe nailing is sufficient.
Sixth question, if your reffering to what kind of brackets I use under the platform. Sometimes we build them out of 2x4s and then wrap them with pine or what ever you want to use according to what your doing with the type of siding.
Or you can but or make decorative brackets.
Seventh question, I don't understand, If I were to frame this I would measure from your desired header height, from the bottom of your header whatever your rough opening is plus 4' for the platform as I explained above.
Then add the 3-1/2" thickness of the 2-2x4s on edge that your using for your sill and that is were you cut your existing wall studs out they are your jacks underneath your 2-2x4s on edge sills.
Ex:
Rough opening Height 5'
Add 4' for the platform = 5'- 4"
Add 3-1/2" for 2-2x4s on edge sills = 5' 7-1/2"
Now measrure 5' 7-1/2" down from the bottom of your header and mark your existing 2x4s and thats where you cut them and then sit your 2-2x4 sills on top.
Then nail your platform on top of that .
Hope this helps.
Joe Carola
Richie,
I forgot to mention, once you slide your bay window on the platform and nail it in from the outside you still have to shim nail or screw the top and bottom of the window into the header and platform.
Also when you make the platfrom just make sure you don't cover up the holes for the cables with any of the 2x4s ;-)
Let me know what you think.
Joe Carola
Joe,
Your response was right on the money as far as what I was asking. Even the one where you were not sure what I meant hit the nail on the head (no pun intended!). When I was first looking into using the doubled 2x4s, I was putting them toward the base of the wall as if it were a bottom plate and using a separate sill. Then as I thought about it, it seemed to make more sense to move it up and use it as the sill to avoid having a lot of short cripples. I just wanted to make sure that by moving it up I wasn't weakening the wall's structural integrity. I am going to try your method as well and will let you know how it went. Again, thanks for taking the time to compose really thorough responses. It IS greatly appreciated.
Richie
Richie,
One more thing, I was reading over my posts to you and I failed to mention.
When scribing the bottom of the bay window on a sheat of plwood for the platform.
Where you are actually scribing is to the back of the bay window flanges
Joe Carola
Hey Joe,
Thanks for all the help. We reframed the wall in the method we spoke of without a hitch. The old "header" (a 2x4 on the flat!) which spanned the old double hung window actually sat higher than the bottom of my new doubled 2x12 header by about 7 inches. When I cut my new rough opening, part of my header was left without sheathing covering it (an area about 40 inches wide by 7 inches high toward the middle of the header). I considered cutting out enough sheathing to patch in with a full sheet of 3/4 ply but figured I was getting more structural support from the diagonal 1x10s already in place which ran continuous between the floors. As such I just cut a 7in x 40in piece of 3/4 ply and nailed it to the header to even out the surface. Sound ok? All the diagonal 1x10s were renailed to the new framing. The cleats for the cable supports were screwed into two studs just above my header (I toe nailed the studs to the header and only split off a piece of one stud...of course it was the one the cleat screwed to but the chunck that split off was no too deep (maybe 3/4 in worth) along the front (inside) of the stud...not bad for hundred year old lumber!). Anyway, your method of using the platform really saved my ####. The r.o. dimension given by the distributor was incorrect. After building the platform out of 2x4s and 1/2in ply, the window did not fit...to tall! I simply removed the platform and made it again out of 2x3s instead of 2x4s. Worked like a charm. I hate to think what a pain it would have been if that platform wasn't there to be modified. Thanks again.
Richie
Richie,
I'm glad it worked out for you. Just one question. Couldn't you have just taken the platform out and just cut the jacks down an inch and dropped the sills and the platform down?
Joe Carola
Joe,
Remember this was a balloon frame and there were two windows. The sills are doubled 2x6 w/1/2 in ply sitting on the existing studs which run to the first floor. Each spans about 10 feetso to disassemble that would have been a major inconvenience. After dropping the platform to 2x3s I was left with between 3/4 to 1 1/4 inch so I shimmed the windows about 1/2 inch off each platform every 12 inches and shimmed the remaining space (between 1/4 to 7/8) above the window also every 12 inches. I know the math seems weird but the two headers ended up with one being a little higher than the other. In this case the cable support removes most of the shear force from the top screws but just out of curiousity, how big of a gap do you think can be filled with shims before the load becomes too great on the shank of the fastener which may lead to the fastener bending? Also, do you know where I can find a table of shear strengths for different fasteners? I'm just curious.
Richie
Richie,
I didn't remember but I'm glad it worked out for you. Did you put any kind of bracket underneath?
I typed in ( Tables for shear strength and fasteners) and they had several websites on it.
0ne was (http://www.boltscience.com/pages/strength.htm)
Hope this helps.
Joe Carola
Edited 11/10/2002 2:30:14 PM ET by Framer
Thanks Joe. No brackets...the window uses an overhead cable support system. Anyway, any opinions on permissible gap dimensions to use shims in? Up to 1 inch, more, less? Thanks. I am going to check out that website now. L8R.
Richie
Richie,
My opinion on shimming up to 1" is I wouldn't use just shims on a bay. I string a line across the top headboard of the bay if there's let's say a 3' section that needs to be shimmed 3/4" I would use a full 3/4' rip of plywood.
From there if the shim goes to 1" I would use either 5/4(measures 1" in NJ) or two layers of 1/2" ripped or one layer of 1/2" and one layer of 5/8". Then you can use screws to fasten the headboard into the header.
Me personally I think it's a better and stronger job especially for a bay to have a nice solid shim across the whole top.
Joe Carola
Wow! That was fast! I always used shims because i wanted some space left to insulate. I wanted to change the screws at the head so maybe I will try it your way. I guess after you insert the plywood pieces , then you use shims at the screw locations to make sure everything is snug, right? Thanks again Joe. What part of Jersey are u in? I'm in Staten Island.
Richie
Richie,
I stick the insulation in right befor I close in the bay roof.
There are spots where you have to use use shims and I shim to the chaulk line and also where I use screws nice and snug.
I'm about 1/2 hour from Staten Island. Turnpike to exit 13 from my house or exit 145 from the Garden State Parkway. I live in Caldwell.
Did you go to that website? If so was it any help?
Joe Carola
Edited 11/10/2002 4:02:38 PM ET by Framer
I went but didn't really get to search it. I was looking for basically a table of fasteners with corresponding shear strengths. I thought of it because when I accidentally leaned a little off center on the wood screws fastening the bays when their threads had just started, I bent a couple. This led to my concern about the space i was shimming even though the cables are there supporting the cantilevered weight of the window. I know pets and kids love to sit on a bay and want to make sure it's in there to stay. If my supplier had given me the correct r.o., my gaps would have been far less as I said in my previous post. I've always been comfortable shimming 1/2 inch or less all around. Anyway...I really didn't want to take the whole window out again to pack the opening with plywood. Do you insert the plywood like shims or fasten them independently to the framing and then insert the window?
Richie
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