What is everyone’s thoughts on using trim nails ( galvanized of course) in ACQ wood. We recently nailed up some trim (non ACQ lumber) into ACQ lumber ( band joist on a deck). I was planning on using trim screws rated for ACQ, but was told to use the trim nailer w/ galvanized nails.
Personally, I don’t think that the galvanized nails will last. I’m assuming that the nails are electroplated, not hot-dipped like recommended. The shank is also so small (even if its 15g nails). Of course, one could always go and buy a box of stainless steel trim nails.
Thanxs,
m2akita
Replies
Unless it's a really small piece of molding, I personally don't feel that 15ga nails have any business being used for exterior trim. Way too much movement. We use SS or hot dipped galvy coil rink shank siding nails in a siding nailer. More work for the painter, but less call backs for you and me. SS for anything going into ACQ or for folks who want to pay for the difference. HDG for everything and everyone else.
What do you consider small??? Using siding nails was not an option ( not available...on site, and it is preferred by the company to use trim nails). But that is something to think about. I dont think that we have had problems with useing 15g nails on exterior trim, but I dont know. Never really get a chance, or made the effort I guess, to go back and look at some of our past work. Something worth looking into.
Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Anything smaller than a 1x3, I guess. I'd use a 15ga outside for things like scotia, quarter round, and crown. But for things like cornerboards, fascia, frieze, windows, etc I prefer a nail with a larger head and preferably a ring shank.
I'm in NE though. Maybe it's different where you're at. Where you at again? :)View Image
By the time the painter has caulked and painted most exterior trim is not gonna go anywhere.
But larger boards definately need ring shanks and galvanized.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Maybe in Tennessee. Not here in MA. Can't speak of anywhere else though as my own personal experience is limited to MA. That being said.... installing 1x8 finger joint fascia or rake boards (as an example) with 15 guage nails can be a recipe for disaster here.
View Image
I agree bigger lumber needs real nails.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Im in the Mid-Atlantic, Charlottesville VA to be exact. We had a guy working with us from the NW (Oregon/Washington) who said they used siding nails on ext trim a lot.
Got me thinking, Im gonna have to go and try and look at a couple of houses where I did exterior trim and see how things look ( Im sure it'll look good from the truck :)).Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
I wouldn't trust that. I think the galvanization on 15 ga. nails is quite thin- it's there mostly to increase the holding power of the nails. The galvanized 15 gauge nails I use say "for interior use only."
I really like trim screws for exterior trim. Sometimes I'll put up trim with 15 gauge, and go back over it with trim screws.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Im with you on the trim screws. Like the ones from GRK. I actually went back and put in some ACQ rated trim screws into the stuff after we where done nailing it. My little piece of mind.
Its a little disturbing hearing about these fastner/hanger failers in ACQ wood even when it is hot dipped. I have been planning on talking with the bosses about switching to borate treated wood for non exposed applications.Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
I'm curious what you think about the GRK climatech coated screws. . they say they're ok for ACQ on the box, but it looks like such a think coating. I haven't used them on ACQ, but I would certainly feel safer using stainless if it was an area that would get wet a lot.
Then again, I don't particularly like stainless trim screws- too many stripped heads and torqued off shanks.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
I like the screws a lot, but really cant comment on how they actually hold up to ACQ wood. Im just blindly believeing what they say on the box. Suppose I could do my own little experiment and find some scrap ACQ, drive a few scews in, and see how they last.Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
You might be interested in reading this:
http://www.building-products.com/articles/connConf.html
Connector Confusion:Sorting out the right fasteners for treated woodTHE changeover from CCA to ACQ and copper azole has brought its share of bewilderment to the treated wood marketplace. And the peak of perplexity seems to center around the issue of which fasteners to use with the next generation of treated lumber.“ The reason everyone seems lost is that the treating companies have pretty much left the onus to the fastener companies,” argued Mike Tipps, Titan Metal Werks. “On their Web sites, the treating companies all say the same thing: ‘these are companies that say they make fasteners that are compatible with ACQ and copper azole.’ Yet there is no standard test out there, no governmental standard, no fastener industry standard.”FasPac’s Mike Barber agreed: “There’s no existing ASTM test procedure that addresses this. They’re all old, obsolete. That’s frustrating. Everybody’s confused.”Several manufacturers have petitioned ISANTA to devise a new standard, but producers and associations may be wary of adopting any standard that their fasteners or their members’ products may be unable to pass, suggested Plating Technology’s W.C. Litzinger, chairman of the Deck Industry Association’s newly formed fastener corrosion committee. “They have to quit playing politics,” he said.In the meantime, various fastener manufacturers have funded at least a half-dozen independent tests to determine what works best with the replacement preservatives. Prelimi-nary results indicate that ACQ and copper azole appear to be two to four times as corrosive as CCA. That means while more expensive stainless steel fasteners are unaffected, once-accepted hot-dipped galvanized connectors are more vulnerable.So, the need to find a solution has fallen into the lap of the fastener manufacturers. FasPac began extensive independent testing 18 months ago, resulting in an entirely new coating process unveiled late last year. The new CA- and ACQ-compatible fasteners are marketed as Fastap Plus with Duracoat XT. Through testing, Simpson Strong-Tie also recognized the need to, according to Mark Crawford, “increase the thickness of the galvanizing. So we significantly increased the number of connectors we offer with our thicker Zmax coating. We now have six or seven times as many connectors with that coating.”To help combat the confusion, said Crawford, “we’re doing a lot of marketing work and presentations. We’ve changed our labeling and made them teal. Tear sheets are now teal, and we have a lot of new signage.”Simpson will keep testing over the next three to six months.After a series of tests, Plating Technology has introduced a new line of fasteners specifically designed for ACQ, CA and borates.Maze Nails continues recommending its Stormguard double hot-dipped galvanized nails. “The wood treaters have always recommended hot-dipped galvanized or stainless steel fasteners for use with treated wood,” said Kim Pohl. “Now, with the new CA and ACQ being more corrosive to fasteners than CCA, the wood treaters are adamantly recommending and specifying the use of quality hot-dipped galvanized and stainless steel fasteners. They have become much more aggressive in their recommendations. They all say hot-dipped fasteners must meet the ASTM A-153 specification for hot-dip galvanizing.”Last year Titan Metal Werks added an “ACQ-Rated Finish,” a triple zinc coating with a copolymer overlay.Stanley Bostitch has developed Thickcoat, a galvanized fastener with more zinc, plus chromate and polymer coatings for extra strength.Screw Products Inc. suggests using stainless steel, but is also changing the specs on its ceramic-coated deck screws to accommodate the new treated lumber.Senco recently commissioned the University of Dayton to conduct an independent study of the corrosive effects of non-arsenate treated lumber. “It’s very early in that process to report anything conclusively, but the preliminary results are alarming, to say the least,” said Bryan Wright. “Even galvanized fasteners are showing signs of corrosion in a very short period of time. Still to be seen is what’s going on beneath the surface of the wood. Those results should be available in about six months.”In the meantime, Senco has introduced stainless steel and Weatherex 3 (high-grade galvanized with a polymer coating) fasteners “in more sizes to cover the whole gamut of exterior applications,” Wright said. “Senco used to recommend its basic Weather-ex nails for applications like roofing. Not anymore. ‘Bright basic’ and aluminum fasteners, likewise, should be avoided. Stainless steel is the best first choice if a non-arsenate treated lumber is being used for an exterior application. Weatherex 3 is still an option in some applications, but Senco will actively encourage users to step up to stainless for best results.”Likewise, FastenTite parent company Banner Elk Trading Co. is also offering only stainless steel fasteners for wood-to-wood applications involving the new pressure treated lumber. “This is the only proven solution for the uncertainty,” said William Wade. “We have increased production to meet demand and have broadened our offering to the various 18/8 grades of stainless steel to include 304, 305 and 316 types.”“ No one is quite certain what effect [the chemical changeover] will have on coated steel fasteners,” he added. “To address this issue, some companies are modifying their existing coatings or simply marketing existing coatings as compatible with the new pressure treatments. The question that lumber dealers and builders should ask is whether they’re willing to take that chance to save a few cents.”Swan Secure Products has always advocated the use of stainless steel. Swan’s Albert Mickadeit speculated, “The treaters don’t want to alienate the fastener companies or make stainless mandatory. If stainless were mandatory, builders might seek alternative lumber because they would have an increase in fastener cost. Cost per job, stainless is minimal; cost per pound vs. galvanized, it is huge. So the treaters put the responsibility on the builders—where it should be—and give them the alternatives to choose from. Most builders just look for a label on the box stating ACQ ap-proval, not caring about any standard. So get your label machine ready, and you’re in business. I’m betting most fastener distributors haven’t changed a thing except the label.”FasPac’s Barber concurred that new packaging doesn’t guarantee better products. “In reality,” he explained, “there are a lot of fastener importers who suddenly in the last 60 days are all compatible. The product on the shelf hasn’t changed, but the packaging may be slightly different. Dealers are picking up on this. There’s a lot of confusion.”Until there are applicable standards, dealers and their customers will have to pay closer attention to what they’re buying and selling.
http://www.quittintime.com/
ACQ= Stainless ....period.
I fu'ed and slapped up a temp deck for the barby out side the kitchen...used Hitachi Siding nails ( thanks Grant) and they are shot, in less than 2 yrs.
I am tearing it off for final, but still...the Hitachi double dipped ( or what ever they were) are eaten up bad.
For my own work, I stay shy of that ACQ...not here, not me, not my house....I have a local that saws anything from Osage to Locust, walnut is readily cheep, as is white oak..I can use cadmium plated fastners in any of those woods with out ill effects. But, the Walnut will eat cadmium on the electroplated stuff.
The double zipped are first coated with cad, then zinc, that keeps the shank diameter the same as the root diameter in the guns idea of what it is shooting..I mean a .099-.131 nail is nebulous to the gun, but the overall life of the nail is dependant upon the outer galv. layer.
I roof cedar with Hitachi ( lately) dipped nails, my MAX gun hates them, the dipp comes off in the nose and clogs it up, causing a feed issue. SS does not have that gunk.
MAX nails suck..save the money and buy Hitachi or Bostitch for the guns sake, even tho' you gotta clean the driver face after every 5K or so nails.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.