I didn’t find anything appropriate in the archives, apologies if this has already been discussed. I’m trying to determine if I can fix my garage on the cheap, or go into debt to have it replaced. I’ve been too busy with other projects to deal with it, but I doubt I can put it off much longer.
The back is bowing out noticeably, I’m guessing the sill plate is rotted. The concrete floor looks like a jigsaw puzzle–after someone has kicked it. The foundation wall has several cracks. The framing (joists, one corner post, studs) is looking whitewashed in several places, I guess that’s rot, several examples of what looks like sistering to support rotting members. No sheathing, just cedar clapboard siding, that is now splitting in places. Oh yeah, ceiling joists: one at each gable end, and one in the middle…. That little detail is what convinces me this was framed at the same time as the house.
A couple of other things: this thing never had gutters and ground is not graded away from it. I looked at the roof (where a tree, now gone, had punched a hole in the facia while it grew against the side) and it looks like the POs never saw a layer of roofing that they thought couldn’t benefit from another layer. Talk about roof archeology. Got a rafter rotting there.
In general my inclination is to replace the rotted members one by one, jack up a plate at a time and replace sill plates, etc. But the sticking point is the foundation: would saving this thing involve having to lift it all up on i-beams and put in a new slab? There’s a local company that does a speciality in saving garages (it’s a standard problem around here) but I’d rather not spend $$$ on fixing the framing problems if the foundation is kaput. OTOH is the foundation wall just an epoxy job away from full health?
Replies
It sounds like you would have a much better spend of $$ by starting from scratch. With that many problems you'd be much happier by getting rid of all of the issues. From your description, I think you already knew your answer.
Food for thought: I'm saving a garage that doesn't really deserve saving, just a motley collection of 2x4s and t+g siding with a sorry excuse for a foundation. The nice thing about it is it's location: right on my back lot line. If I were to tear it down and start over again, I couldn't get a permit for that location, and I'd end up using my yard.
zak
"so it goes"
You may not be allowed the same size structure if starting anew. Chect the codes dept for maximum outbuildings.
Fixing the old at least allows you a place to store the tools.
Troy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
Funny you should mention that, this is right on the property line with the neighbors. If I had to lift it up for a new foundation, the cribbing on one side would have to sit in their back garden.Cough.
So you're grandfathered in at that yard saving location. One reason to repair the thing.
New building may increase you RE taxes.
An old building can take a lot of abuse before it's past the salvagable state. It's a garage so no need for complex remedies. What are you going to be using it as? A car garage, workshop, storage area, place for the kid's band to play rockand roll?
Once you get yer needed supplies sitting there and have at it it's not that awlfully involved.
I vote retain the original and strengthen what remains. Deal with the water issue and after repair the garage will take care of itself.
If a new roof, extend the overhangs out a bit or put gutters on there.
be vote here X
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
Yeah, I think water issues can be dealt with with regrading, a new roof and gutters to a pipe that will need to be laid anyway (drainage issues near the house).
I'd fix it because I like a challenge. Does the floor really matter that much to you? Fix the frame and leave the floor if not.
I'm sure the floor could be hammered out and new concrete laid. I'm more concerned with the cracking foundation wall and if that indicates bigger underlying problems.I can't afford to plough time or money into a garage rehab that starts failing again in a couple of years (one of the reasons I haven't replaced the roof yet). On the other hand, replacement will drive a truck through my finances (with everything else that needs fixing in this house).Ah, who needs a garage anyway, with Peak Oil.....I appreciate everyone's opinions, I may have an engineer evaluate it, though I strongly suspect (being an engineer) he will recommend replacement.
Can you pour a new footing or underpin the existing footing with a larger footing.
I have no idea, I just assumed that a new footing would require excavating out the old. I will look into this, thanks for the suggestion.I was serious about epoxy repairs, Abatron has an epoxy for patching concrete, just not sure if the damage has progressed too far at this point.
Even if you had to take out the old footing it wouldn't be that hard to hold up the walls. It is not uncommon for there to be additional support added when a building goes higher. at that time the3y may underpin a footing or find other ways to add dupport. When I lived in CA when a homeowner wanted a second story we would dig out large square pads and fill them with concrete and then go up with columns to support the story above. I was on a job in Texas and we had piles that went down about 20 feet. Then had a beam spanning the piles and then built the building on top of that. The beam was above the ground. That kind of construction is done a lot in bridges. I think there are a lot of ways to solve your problem.
Part of the issue may be the weight of multiple layers of roof (at least five) weighing on the walls. Clearly I'm not going to put on a new roof if there's a chance of demo. If I do my own tear-off in the interim, is there any kind of temporary roofing one can put on so it doesn't rot out?
Any historical value?
If not, prob best to demo and start from scratch.
Nice, new and bigger.
Plenty of lights, elect. maybe some heating and a/c?
A restroom?
small office?
TV? Room for a pool table?
Think positive.
It will add $10K to the job to try to fix what is there. It will be quicker, easier, safer and better to demo and start new. How do you wish to use the new garage? As just a garage, workshop, etc?By rebuilding, you can change the size, add a vapor barrier under the slab, insulation in the walls, upgrade the electrical, raise the roof improve the layout, and so on. Just build what you need. Depending on your area, you may not even need an engineer.As far as saving taxes, here even improvements raise taxes and you can always leave a tiny portion standing so you can call it a "remodel," if you need or want to play those games.
Taylor - I have been accused of squeezing a nickle until the Indian screams. But, given your description, I would be prone to tying a chain to the thing, cutting a few studs and pulling it to the dump.
I'm sure it can be saved, but at what cost, and for what? If you don't have a good solid foundation (soundslike you don't), you need to jack it up to put something under it. That's a pain from the beginning. Then you are into putting in new shoe plates where the old is rotten, a nuisance for sure, maybe time consuming too. while you are at it, you might want to sister some of the rotten studs and replace others, but before you can do that, you need to cut them out of the way and support this mess. Your sheathing/siding combo doesn't sound real great - some of it's going to need replacement too. Then, you get to the roof once the structure is strong enought to deal with it. On the roof, you change some rafters, strip it, cull out more rotten boards and buolid overhangs to shed the water better.
Betcha it takes at least three times as long to repair it, and I'm being conservative. If you are looking to get full of rotten muck while you do each of these chores separately, then go for it. I personally have much better things to do with my life.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
The issue is, there are many other things I could spend my money on.Dealing with internal and external drainage issues. Trying to get this draughty old house ready for soaring energy costs.The garage is an oversized storage shed. I'd happily reclaim the land for my back garden, except for resale value.
Interesting how many comments you got that were on the salvage side of the fence. Mid-April there was a similar pair of threads from the same poster, and she pretty much got the thumbs down. Could well be that the necessary skills were more in question. Anywat, here they are for your reading pleasure:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=72385.1
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=72391.1
Funny thing is, if I replaced, I'd want to salvage much of the cedar siding, and the original windows, so the replacement would be a plausible fascimile of the original. Neighbor recently replaced, complete landscaping job, must have dropped $50K.Vinyl siding.
Yeah, that 4K figure must have been a typo. Either that or apples to oranges on work scope.
Some of you guys crack me up.
How many times has she said she doesn't have the money. Seems all she wants is to do is strengthen the place so it doesn't fall down.
be 'hellman, you outta tear yer living quarters house down too since it looks like shid.'
half of good living is staying out of bad situations
--- How many times has she said she doesn't have the money. Seems all she wants is to do is strengthen the place so it doesn't fall down. ---Yup, that's all I wanted to do. But now it seems we'll be moving before the autumn rains, so even the repair plans are off. Let the next owner worry about it.Rebeccah
You planning on staying in the Bay Area, or taking the money & running? Friend at work just did that - ended up in San Antonio (yuck, but it works for him) with a brand new house in the best neighborhood/school district with money in the bank. Makes ya think...
Orange County. Marginally less expensive. But we can't afford to keep living the way we have for the last three years, so we'll be back to renting again. Less travel, too, since we currently drive down there about twice a month (at 1000 miles round trip each time).Rebeccah
Being the OP on those other threads, I was noticing the same thing. :)Rebeccah
I just got done salvaging one for a customer that probably should have been torn down but wasn't for all the above mentioned reasons. My bill was $4k plus the roof. If you do it yourself, the cost will be much less.
Grunge on. http://grungefm.com
Update for anyone that's interested: having some contractors out this week to evaluate and give estimates on repair or replacement.
One bit of good news, I don't need to worry about damage to foundations.
There are no foundations.
The "foundation wall" is cinder blocks about 6" into the ground. Then a thin cement slab for the floor. It's why garage repair/replacement is such a lucrative business in this town.
Gotta love those 20s construction standards....
20's construction standards lasted 80 years in your case.
Forever is a long time.
Troy Sprout
"If they paid for a screw, they'll get one."
Edited 5/8/2006 7:46 am by Hackinatit
Haven't you heard some of the old folks say that they built the old houses better than they do now?
Well this house was built at the tail end of the roaring twenties, with the middle class buying cars and moving out to the suburbs, so there may have been some short cuts in the mad building frenzy. My favorites are no building paper and the attic (rafters @ 22oc, joists @ 16oc, both 2x6 natch).OTOH although code now says foundations should go down 38", I've been told (by someone looking at the garage) that the frost hasn't been down that low since the last ice age. So as long as global warming doesn't divert the Gulf Stream and put the freeze on the NE....
Update: Had a couple of people look at the garage. Consensus is: it's fine!"Foundations" are typical and considered okay for this climate (though not up to code). Cement floor needs to be replaced but it's independent of the cinder block foundation wall, which although cracked probably can be repaired with epoxy. Being a BT reader, I of course asked for rebar in addition to mesh in the concrete, and I was told that's only necessary for big trucks. Well what the heck.White on wood is actually probably a spray to stop ants, the sistering may have been because of damage from carpenter ants. Back wall probably bowing out because someone drove into it, or my theory a spring on the door opener broke once and went flying (I've since had the cables installed that will stop that happening). A tree stump growing on the side has lifted up the wall (now it's been pointed out, it's obvious), that's the most major repair.So then we start talking about the godawful job someone did once replacing the two doors with a single door, and I start talking about restoring it to the original (with those faux carriage-type doors that still open up). And replacing the sill plate, which actually doesn't look bad: he wants to level the whole thing with lasers, sister with PT studs, shim between new plate and foundation with concrete. Fix the front trim that's been butchered.It all sounds great.Now I have to get estimates on fixing other house problems.....Sigh, restoring this garage to its earlier glory may have to wait. I really liked the guy I met today, all he does is restore garages, but my budget is getting squeezed......Looks like we're keeping the 80 yo garage.....
Edited 5/9/2006 7:16 am ET by Taylor