Well, it looks like we’ve decided what we’re doing with the garage roof, and since the weather is supposed to be nice for a couple of days and Kalim has already gotten his stuff moved out of the way, it looks like we’re starting tomorrow.
It’s going to be DIY plus paid help from friends.
1. We’ll remove the existing roll roofing and examine the sheathing. At the least, we’ll remove two courses of 1×8 sheathing from the eaves. We’ll have extra 3/4″ plywood sheathing on hand in case we have to replace more of it or even all of it.
2. There are 10 rafters on each side and 7 ceiling joists, all of them 2×4. Most are dimensional redwood, some are nominal size and presumably Douglas fir. 90% of the rafters are rotten at the ends, some of them almost all the way up to the wall.
We will cut birdmouths on 5′ long 2x4s and sister them to the rotting rafters. Not sure how many nails we should use. We will also examine the ends of the ceiling joists, and any of them that are rotten we will sister with 4′ long 2×4’s. Again, nailing pattern TBD. The sisters will all be nailed to the top plate, as well.
3. We will probably add strongbacks to the ceiling joists.
4. We will nail on 3/4″ plywood sheathing.
5. We have a 2.5:12 slope roof. As we are doing it ourselves, we will probably use standard 20-year GAF 3-tab shingles from Home Depot. They have instructions for application to low-slope roofs, basically requiring a double layer of roofing felt (overlapping each course > 50%).
Now come the questions:
– The roof has a curb at the front rake. Currently the roll roofing is just rolled up over the top of the curb. Can we do that with the roofing felt and the shingles? Or do we need flashing? Should we remove the curb?
– The shingle instructions say to put the metal drip edge under the roofing felt at the eave, and over it along the rake. There’s a huge variety of metal roof edgings at Home Depot. Is there any guideline for which one to use? We were thinking about the 1.5″ wide L-shaped pieces that come in 10-foot lengths. I think it might be aluminum.
– Do we need a drip edge on the front rake if there’s a curb?
– Do nails penetrate through the drip edge OK?
– Do we need any kind of adhesive or sealant between drip edge and plywood, drip edge and roofing felt, or drip edge and shingles?
– Shingle instructions mention using “asphalt plastic roof cement” in a 4″ wide band along the rake edge for maximum wind resistance, and mention using “shingle tab adhesive” “on the back and at the corner of each tab” if conditions do not favor self sealing.
– Are these two different materials or the same?
– How do I estimate how much to buy (of either one)?
– What does “on the back and at the corner of each tab” mean?
– I haven’t looked at the shingles yet, but the instructions mention a film strip on the back of the shingles to keep them from sticking together in the bundle. It says the film *doesn’t* need to be removed. Seems weird. If you want the shingles to stick together on the roof, why wouldn’t you remove a strip that prevents their sticking together?
Thanks,
Rebeccah
Edited 1/14/2007 11:12 pm by Rebeccah
Replies
Deleted, see Piffin post later on organizing queries. I defer to older? and wiser.
Edited 1/15/2007 7:26 am ET by junkhound
I'm of the opposite opinion. When people spread things all over the forum, things get disorganized and it is hard to understand what she is dealing with. We often suggest that people consolidate to avoid the confusion. Having all the information in one place makes it easier to get the big picture.
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I will give a shot at answering some of your questions based on my experience.
I want to address the "curb " at what you are labeling the front edge. First do you mean the eave ?
If this is the case then did the old roof have what is called out here an "internal gutter" The raised curb at the eaves traps water and allows it do be directed to a downspout that is set into the roofing material or to a scupper box at the rake edge of the roof?
If this in fact the case then get rid of the curb, and hang gutters.
The raised curb detail is specific to old hot mopped and gravel roofs, and membrane roofs. I always saw it as an aversion to seeing the gutter on the edge of the roof, but worse as a leak waiting to happen.
If the curb is at the rake edge, again get rid of it, you don't need it with the rake metal edging.
Rake metal needs to have some form of drip edge that "kicks" the drips out away from the barge rafter, allowing it to fall free without running down the rafter. A simple "L" metal will not suffice.
Leave the film on , it's function will become apparent to you when you open up a bundle a shingles and look for at what it's function is. (It simply keeps the self adhering strips from adhering to the shingles during shipment, once the shingles are unpacked and laid with the course stagger the film is not in a location to prevent sealing.)
You should not need tab sealant if the weather is going to be above freezing and you can expect some sun on the roof. That is of course presuming you are not in an extremely high wind area and don't have a hurricane in the forecast.
Eave metal to me is a toss up, some use it some don't. If you don't then overhang the felt by 3/4" past the sheathing and then overhang the shingles to the the same (meaning the shingle bottom and felt are in alingment).
I am not a pro roofer and don't claim to be, but have laid a lot of roofing over the years.
Edited 1/15/2007 12:30 am ET by dovetail97128
Thanks, Dovetail.I did mean the rake, not the eave. It's only in the front, I don't think there's one in the back. The front has a 12" overhang that looks like it was added at some time after the building's construction (nominal size 2x4s to double up one pair of common rafters, plywood sheathing).Is the drip edge to be preferred to a curb?Rebeccah
Hard to "see" from my seat.
I don't understand your orientations. No insults intended here but I need to get on the same page in terms of orientation.
Rake is the side of the roof (edge)
Eave is the lowest edge, where the water would drip off.
Sounds as if you have a simple gable roof (looked at from the side it looks like an upside down "V", front and back are street orientations or lot orientations?
EDIT:
Ahh, wait a minute. does the "front" of the roof have the ridge line in the center of it?
I was picturing it with the ridge line at 90 deg. to the "front".
darn , pictures sure help!!
Edited 1/15/2007 12:54 am ET by dovetail97128
Here's the photo again. I should have posted it with this thread.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=84033.10Rebeccah
If the roof is a simple gable roof you should not need a curb anywhere at all. It might have been put there to prevent water from dripping off over the garage entrance perhaps.
---If the roof is a simple gable roof you should not need a curb anywhere at all. It might have been put there to prevent water from dripping off over the garage entrance perhaps. ---Yes, probably so, and that's why I'm considering keeping it. The driveway slopes down, so any runoff would be at risk for entering the garage. We installed a trench drain a couple of years ago in front of the garage entrance, but I think the roof edge is behind it.Rebeccah
I would not keep the cnat and curb. It will make it more difficult to shingle the roof and really probably doesn't accomplish much to keep the gargae front dryer anyway.
her curb is a raised fascia and cant strip running up the rake at the front gable end
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Piffin,
I figured that out after I posted my response. I had the "picture" skewed.
Yes, nailing through a drip edge is OK.
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
The plastic film strips seat over the seal down locations when stacked straight up in the bundles, but when you install the shingles, they each offset five inches from the previous, so the film does not interfere with sealing.
You don't need to manually seal the shingles with roof cement. We used to have to do that thirty years ago before they had self sealing shingles. The kind of conditions that would prevent sealing would be like having a dust storm or two with very cold temperatures before a warm day sealed them.
Drip edge - get the cheapest they have. This ain't the Taj Mahal.
Curb - I would probably remove it. From my memory of the earlier photo, I am thinking that with the old rool roofing, the front edge looked raw and ragged, so they created the curb to look better, possibly to keep water runoff from dumping over the entry there if the roof leans that way. I would seriously think of removing the curb. f
lasahing that would be a pain. Otherwise, hope for a warm day and run the shingles right up over it.
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The plastic film strips seat over the seal down locations when stacked straight up in the bundles, but when you install the shingles, they each offset five inches from the previous, so the film does not interfere with sealing.
Got it.
You don't need to manually seal the shingles with roof cement. We used to have to do that thirty years ago before they had self sealing shingles. The kind of conditions that would prevent sealing would be like having a dust storm or two with very cold temperatures before a warm day sealed them.
OK. What about the drip edge. Does that require any sealant?
Drip edge - get the cheapest they have. This ain't the Taj Mahal.
:-) I was planning on going cheap, but the problem is there are so many profiles of metal strips all right next to each other with cryptic names like "Z-bar" and "Grip Edge". I didn't see anything specifically labelled "drip edge". The widths are all over the board from 1.5" to 3" or more.
Curb - I would probably remove it. From my memory of the earlier photo, I am thinking that with the old rool roofing, the front edge looked raw and ragged, so they created the curb to look better, possibly to keep water runoff from dumping over the entry there if the roof leans that way. I would seriously think of removing the curb. flasahing that would be a pain. Otherwise, hope for a warm day and run the shingles right up over it.
How warm is warm? Today is supposed to get to 53 degrees and sunny, tomorrow 53 degrees and partly cloudy, Wednesday 52 degrees and a 20 percent chance of precipitation, and the rest of the week 53 degrees and partly cloudy. :). I'm just glad no big rains are forecast.
Thanks,
Rebeccah
Edited 1/15/2007 1:09 pm by Rebeccah
70° is better. Asphalt shingles are not especially pliable at 50.You can always encourg=age them to mold to shape with a hair dryer tho.Z-strip is not even a roof flashing. What is commonly used is called Style D
It can be nailed and it does not need to be sealed.
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http://images.google.com/images?q=drip%20edge&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&tab=wi
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>> There's a huge variety of metal roof edgings at Home Depot. Is there any guideline for which one to use? We were thinking about the 1.5" wide L-shaped pieces that come in 10-foot lengths. I think it might be aluminum. <<
I think you are looking at drip cap. What you want is actually called drip edge. I'm pretty sure that if you look closely at the bar code stickers on the stuff at HD you will see that it has the actual name of the piece printed on the liable.
I'd get rid of the "curb". It's a pretty non standard detail that will likely add to roof failure. When you dismantle the old I'd be curious to know if there is rot that resulted form this on the existing roof. Someone probably added it to keep water from dripping off the low slope rake onto people entering the garage from that side which I understand the idea, but may not be a good for the reason I stated above.
If you really wanted to do it right you would rip off about 3' of roof sheathing all around the perimeter, cut off all the overhangs and build a complete new roof structure around the old that had at least a 4:12 to 6:12 depending on what would look good with your house. Depending on the size of the structure, you would use either 2x6 or 2x8 rafters and ceiling joists. I'm guessing by your choice of shingles, the budget is pretty tight though and you probably don't want to think about this.
I think you are looking at drip cap. What you want is actually called drip edge. I'm pretty sure that if you look closely at the bar code stickers on the stuff at HD you will see that it has the actual name of the piece printed on the liable.
I''m heading back to HD today without my fiance to see if I can figure out which one it is, but I didn't see anything labeled "drip edge" there when we went yesterday to get prices.
I'd get rid of the "curb". It's a pretty non standard detail that will likely add to roof failure. When you dismantle the old I'd be curious to know if there is rot that resulted form this on the existing roof.
I'll post pictures along the way.
Someone probably added it to keep water from dripping off the low slope rake onto people entering the garage from that side which I understand the idea, but may not be a good for the reason I stated above..
Understood. I'm concerned about runoff getting inside the garage because of the sloping driveway.
If you really wanted to do it right you would rip off about 3' of roof sheathing all around the perimeter, cut off all the overhangs and build a complete new roof structure around the old that had at least a 4:12 to 6:12 depending on what would look good with your house. Depending on the size of the structure, you would use either 2x6 or 2x8 rafters and ceiling joists. I'm guessing by your choice of shingles, the budget is pretty tight though and you probably don't want to think about this.
I *have* thought about this. But I wasn't able to get my fiance to understand about leaving the old roof on while building the new, and the budget *is* very tight.
Rebeccah
Edited 1/15/2007 1:10 pm by Rebeccah
All right, well that's decided. The curb was only held on by the roofing material, and the sheathing at the front was all rotted out. No more curb.Pictures to come. Two of the rafters need to be sistered for nearly their whole length. Only two of the ceiling joists need reinforcement. Most of the sheathing is fine.Rebeccah
Here are the photos.I know it's been posted a million times, but if someone can remind me how to make the images appear in the post, I'll put a couple of them in it. They're small.Anyway, now the sheathing question is: The 3/4" plywood is of course 1/4" thinner than the old 1x redwood boards. What's the best way to even everything up after patching the holes in the sheathing? My fiance is thinking lay another layer of plywood over the whole thing. I'm thinking if we do that, probably I can return most of the 3/4" plywood and get away with something thinner.Thanks,Rebeccah
doing fine. Overlaying with new ply is not uncommon.
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Not a big deal but look at Grace products. They make a self adhesive product to use instead of tarpaper.It seals quite well. Also, I like the D profile edge. It looks more finished. Depending on the color of the garage, light color roofs generate less heat in the summer. Consider a ridge vent too.Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
Thanks. :)Here's the drip edge I got. I also found a drawing of it online:http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.amerimax.com/images/product_thumb/drip.edge_3x3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.amerimax.com/product-dripedge2.asp%3FiDripEdgeStyleId%3D10&h=160&w=160&sz=19&tbnid=5PjESnDJO6Zo3M:&tbnh=98&tbnw=98&hl=en&start=41&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddrip%2Bedge%26start%3D40%26nojs%3D1%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN
That'll give better protection for those exposed rafter tails than style D
Over hang your shingle bottom edge a half inch or so. Style D provides a support for that but does not hang down the face as far. If you do a dual ply over the old decking, the metal edge you show here will cover that raw edge better.
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Thats the ticket!!
Sigh. What a circus. It will all work out in the end. This would never happen on the house, but it's just a garage that's going to fall down anyway.So, I'm calling this DIY with paid help. My DF (that's "dear fiance" for those who don't know) has some traits that make it all more interesting. First of all, I asked him if he knew how to make the birdsmouth cuts, and he said, "yes". But he said it too quickly, so I suspected he really didn't, and I was right. More on that later. Second, I asked how many people he was going to have help him, and he said three. And that he was just going to go and pick them up and come right back. But, the specific guys he was looking for weren't around (so he took a lot longer to get back than expected), and one of them brought a friend of his, and a couple of others came along in hopes of a joint and a good time, and the next thing you know we've got eight guys in the back yard, wandering around, cutting things, each with his own ideas of what we need to do and how to do it.Third, DF double-booked. He had a prior commitment to do a private art class for two kids this afternoon at 2:00 in our living room. And he forgot to call in the morning to try to reschedule.Then there's the fact that everyone speaks Spanish, and varying degrees of pidgin English (the kids are fluent, at least).One of the guys DF brought over is a complete incompetent, can't paint, can't cut a straight line, doesn't know anything about carpentry, and doesn't know enough to ASK before he does anything. I've told Kalim before that I don't want him working on our house, but he always feels sorry for him and tries to give him work.So Kalim is moving back and forth between the living room and the back yard, with me trying to cover whichever venue he's absent from; I'm out intermittently making Home Depot runs and posting on here with questions whenever I can. The guys are running amok back there, well-intentioned but not adequately supervised. Kalim was supposed to be doing the supervising, but he's a softie, easily swayed by the ideas and opinions of those under him. He's also easily distracted.So, Jose evidently cut one of the birdsmouth plumb cuts almost clear through to the other side, whereupon I told Kalim I didn't want him doing any more cutting. Later, I found him picking up a saw again and asked Kalim what Jose was doing, and he made him put it down again. The last straw was when I realized that all of the rafter reinforcements had been nailed up already, and the birdsmouths were cut wrong. The plumb cuts were all perpendicular to the long axis of the lumber rather than being plumb, so all of the new wood was resting on just one point on the top plate, if they were contacting it at all. Oh, and the cuts were made before the building was plumbed, so most of the level cuts were off, too.Then when I complained about this, they all insisted that it was OK, the cuts were alright, and I shouldn't worry - they were all well-fastened to the rafters, and so were good and strong. I insisted that this was not correct, showed Kalim what the cuts were supposed to look like, he admitted I was right, and informed me that he was the one who had templated all the cuts. Meanwhile, someone piped up with a line about what did I expect for the money I'm paying, and I just lost it.Of course I expected mistakes, screwups, poor oversight, and possible injuries (we did have one guy with a nail in his foot who refused transport to the ER, so I made him come in the house and wash out the wound very thoroughly, enlarge the entrance wound so it could drain properly, and apply an adhesive bandage). But I knew I was right and didn't appreciate these guys, all of whom brag about how much they know and how many houses and garages much bigger and more complicated than mine they've "built", telling me just not to worry and that everything was fine. Furthermore, I didn't appreciate there being so many of them since I know Kalim's attention span is limited. And I said so.And in my anger I said some unkind things about Jose, too.Finally it got down to deciding whether or not to remove them and do them over, and I said no. Instead, I found a box of redwood shims and we used them to fill the gaps under the "level" cuts. And within 20 minutes, half of the guys had left because of my tirade. Which was fine with me.By that point (4:30pm) the kids had left, too, and I had no more errands to run, so Kalim and I could both devote our attention to keeping the remaining three in check. Two of them were in a big hurry to patch the sheathing. I can't count how many times I said "manana". I caught a few items that were missed, and in the morning Kalim and I are going to go over everything with a fine-toothed comb to make sure the structural work on the roof is done before we cover it up. As is we're going to have to remove one deck board that got reinstalled when I wasn't looking.Those that stayed, and Kalim and I, had a nice meal of chicken and gound beef and rice and beans, and I apologized to everyone for yelling, and I paid everyone and gave Kalim money to pay those that had left earlier in the day.Tomorrow is another day. Rebeccah
I hadn't seen the other thread... Piffin's pics were good, - here is a another, very simplified pic of drip edge:
http://www.bendtek.com/p_drip_edge_rake_drip.asp
since you're looking for quick, easy and inexpensive protection from the elements on a building that isn't worth much investment, why not galvanized metal?
--- since you're looking for quick, easy and inexpensive protection from the elements on a building that isn't worth much investment, why not galvanized metal? ---Can you be more specific?Rebeccah
nail a strip of 1x4 or 2x4 the length of the roof (no need to tear off the old shingles), with a strip at the top, bottom and every 24 inches up the roof on each side. screw 24 inch wide galvanized roof (tin) material to the strips. it isn't fine homebuilding, but that garage aint home, nor is it fine. it will get the building dry quicker and for less money and injured mexicans than most anything else. plus, it will outlast whatever else you might put up.
"(no need to tear off the old shingles)"pay attention here - the shingles are off and the sheathing is in process of repair preping for a shingle roof.The metal is not a bad idea except that it is late to table.
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my first mistake ever. i promise to do better next time.tin goes up a whole bunch quicker than shingles, is cheaper, and if you get the first one straight, they all go up straight.
LOL, since this garage and roof are not straight...
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:-PIt's straighter now than it was before, though. However, it's still got temporary bracing to hold it that way.I could nail a long 2x4 on a diagonal across the back wall, and the same on either side. That would be cheaper than putting up plywood on the inside for shear reinforcement. I don't know what to do about the front. That's where the garage door is, and there's no clearance on either side or above it.Rebeccah
That's part of the problem with these old style garages. There was no shear wall section in the front after taking out the door openning.if you don't use it as a garage though, the wall could be built in
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Much more calm today. Kalim and I got up and made an inventory this morning (after removing the section of sheathing that one of the guys reinstalled yesterday) and started working just ourselves. Then Eduardo, the only one of the bunch yesterday who actually knows any carpentry, came, and Kalim went to an appointment he had made about doing a mural, so Eduardo and I were working. Now I'm off to get some strong ties for two rafters that weren't sistered up far enough (we're going to sister a separate piece for another few feet and tie them together) and some burritos. So now it's Kalim and Eduardo.We've got all of the rafter sisters toenailed on to the top plate now, and a rotten section of top plate in the back cut out and replaced, and the front overhang supported with a ladder instead of just one lookout, and rotten wood at the fron of the overhand reinforced.More photos later.Not fine homebuilding by any stretch, but something we've been wanting to do. For all of his faults, Kalim does get me to actually *do* things I've always wanted to but have been too chicken to do.Rebeccah
Uhm.. maybe you want to tell him this .. not us.
""For all of his faults, Kalim does get me to actually *do* things I've always wanted to but have been too chicken to do.""
Thanks, I have told him. I just told him again this evening. We actually complement each other pretty well. And compliment each other often. :)We got a bunch more structural stuff done this afternoon -- 5 studs that were missing the bottom 1/3 (why? who knows?) sistered, most of them their full length. A couple more rotten ceiling joist ends sistered. A piece of rotten sill plate replaced. Some shear bracing (not adequate, but better than nothing) across the back wall.The roof feels more stable to walk on now. Of course, it could just be that I'm more comfortable searching out the rafters to put my weight on, but I don't think so.And two pieces of plywood up so far. Tomorrow we have to determine whether the circular saw's inability to cut straight is a problem with the saw or the operator.Rebeccah
I've glanced through and don't think it was mentioned, but if it was humor me...
With that sag in the middle of the roof it looks as if the walls have probably been pushed out as the roof fell. By pulling the walls in with a comalong your roof will regain a better posture. It may be too late if new ply has already been intalled up top.
Cheers.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
--- With that sag in the middle of the roof it looks as if the walls have probably been pushed out as the roof fell. By pulling the walls in with a comalong your roof will regain a better posture.---I had thought so, too, but it seems that two adjacent rafters rotted significantly where they attach to the top plate, from a leak originating at big (> 4" diameter) knot hole at the top of the sheathing. One of the ceiling joists is rotted there, too, but I think the rafter rot is the cause of the sag, as it extends a foot inside the building perimeter. We've plumbed up the building and the sag persists. But after sistering the rafters, it no longer feels iffy to walk on.I think the decision to lay a second layer of plywood after patching is the right one. Another option suggested by a roofer looking at my house (seeing the garage some 30' away) was to just patch with more rough cut redwood 1x, but the stuff that's left is not in great shape, though it's not completely disintegrated.Rebeccah
Somebody please tell me this whole thread and poster are just YANKING EVERYBODY'S CHAIN. This can not be a real poster, I think somebody is just testing everybody's limit. You guys are very charitable on this. This is so basic that anybody doing it should be able to just by looking at it. PLEASE STOP THE MADDNESS.
No, not yanking anyone's chain, just a dumb homeowner. Sorry.Rebeccah
Don't you dare apologize. You deserve a big pat on the back for organizing, researching, and DOING
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Thanks, Piffin. Both for the support and for the constructive comments.Rebeccah
and i would buy her drinks in a bar for just sitting next to me. your point?
Edited 1/17/2007 12:42 pm ET by davem
I am thinking you would be standing in line to do that . ;-)
No need to be insulting, especially since it sounds like you haven't even taken the time to look at the photos she linked.A good Half the purpose for this forum is to HELP PEOPLE.try it sometime. It can be fun.
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I looked, lets see, around the world with every possible combination of repairs, lots is fishy on this one. I think that someone is posting with a woman's name and that is causing a bit of protectionism. Re-read the long post "she" has before this and it references people wanting to come work for a "joint" and several things that I am not buying. You are trying to "save her", dude, she has Kalim???? to do that. Let her post a pic of her and Kalim with this old garage--I think Breaktime is being had--bigtime. This thing reads like a comedy of errors. I am all for helpful information but this doesn't seem credible.
If it bothers you so much QUIT READING IT!!!!
"Let her post a pic of her and Kalim with this old garage-"She has - like i said, youare criticising without looking. Go away if you don't like it. You jealous of the attention she's got?
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Ok, I get the point, I will not say another word, consider me spanked. You keep on saving the little lady you hero you. I am officially done commenting on it--really.
You deserve medal for this one. Well done Pif.
Huh?This was the BT mastermind at work, not me.
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Definitely the BT mastermind, but just as definitely, you played a large role.Thanks again to everyone.Rebeccah
OK, I give. What's the BT Mastermind???
"Two heads are better than one" to the nth degree.Rebeccah
Thank You.
U got it!Now watch out, or all the neighbors will be wanting you to roof their houses.
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The neighbor behind us whose garage roof *did* completely cave in has reportedly already asked us to do hers (garage roof, that is, not the house).I'm ready to go back to my day job, though.:)Rebeccah
I did notice the one roof in the background of one of the pics that needed a reroof soon. Was thinking the same thing.
If you ever get a chance to read Napolean Hill's "Think and Grow Rich", do it.One of his prionciples of success is that you should make use of the mastermind principle. Many good minds will invariable come up with more and better solutions than one mind going at it all alone. The trick is getting good minds all working together.So when the experienced members here take on a project and shepherd it to completion or solve a problem, it is the mastermind principle at work. A good example was today, a thread involving ice dams. I donn't have the link, but several thoughts and suggestions came forward from several folk, culminating in a design and install improvement.Low and behold, the owner was able to find a copy of the original architect specs and saw that every suggestion we made had been a part of the original design, but the builder had elected to save money here and there, and throw out a lot of necessary parts of the whole, leaving the owner with a hole.
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A simple check of her profile shows she's been posting on this board for a couple years, with over 300 posts to her credit - many of which I have read, and they've all showed her to be just what she claims - someone without any building background who's trying to do the best she can to do a good job with the limited resources available - and not afraid to ask the questions that some of us would be embarrassed to. I know I've asked some questions that a real builder would just "know", but that's what makes BT so special - the pros always seem to be happy to help us DIY'ers with the basics.
According to your profile, you've only been on BT a few months. After a while you'll get to know the regular players, and which ones are REALLY full of it. Then you'll be able to trash people with more authority :)
Don
Then you'll be able to trash people with more authority :)
Very well put.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Let's see if I can at least dig up some photos of Kalim and me and the house, if not the garage.OK. I have a lot more pictures of Kalim than of me, since I'm the one holding the camera. Plus I've put on a lot of weight and don't like the way my photos look any more.Img_0006 is the two of us in our house shortly after we moved in. We spent 6 weeks working on the house before we moved in, including, in this photo, refinishing the wood floors and painting much of the interior. Somehow we missed painting the baseboards.4thOfJuly0028 is from the same weekend, and is me and my mom in the back yard. You can see the side of the garage in the background.Img0008 is Kalim in the back yard with a rooster that he brought home one day. Turns out he got it for one of his Mexican friends who doesn't have a car. Kalim is not Mexican, BTW, he's Honduran; but he has a lot of Mexican friends and acquaintances. In the background is a fiber-reinforced plaster mask that Kalim made. He's an artist.You can't see the garage in this photo, but the rooster and part of the garage are in photo img0014.Just as a reminder, Img0006 is the side of the infamous garage.Rebeccah
Rebeccah,
Don't let anyone's comments about needing to tear it down persuade you. You are doing well and when done will have your desired dry storage building.
When placing the substrate layer over the old roof decking boards you may be able to save some dollars by using 7/16" OSB at under $7 a sheet instead of buying plywood.
Edited 1/17/2007 1:20 pm ET by shed
Thanks, guys (davem, dovetail, shed, and all the other contributors to my several threads). I don't know how I would get through all this without your help and suggestions.Thanks for the 7/16" OSB suggestion. Because we're using some of the plywood that I bought (in quantity for one full layer), for patching, I need to go back to HD for more anyway, so this is just in time. We're almost done with the patching and Kalim needs to get back with the truck soon because he has to teach this afternoon and needs time to prepare.The 3/4" plywood is $19/sheet. I'm not sure how much 1/2" plywood is, but I was thinking of using that for the second layer instead of the 3/4". How do OSB and plysood compare?We don't have the whole neighborhood to load and unload this time, though. :)Rebeccah
Since what you are doing by laying the sheet goods over the top of the old existing roof decking boards is merely providing a better flat surface for your fiberglass shingles,
as opposed to the idea of that layer of sheet goods being the only decking over the roof framing where structural strength and nail holding ability would then be a concern,
then buying plywood instead of OSB will be an unneeded extra expense for the desired aim of this project.
Not a big deal seeing the small size of the roof but that money could go elsewhere in shoring up the structure.
When you lay the top layer of 4x8 sheeting make sure to cover the seams of where the 3/4inch plywood is placed next to the original decking boards.
If possible, to make it meet the old decking run a furring strip on the framing member the thickness needed to have the 3/4inch ply sit level with the old decking.
The idea is the most flat surface you can get without getting too carried away with the project.
Furring out that distance is a small amount of time for the benefit of making the roofing that much more substantial.
That is if the old roofing boards are 1 1/8" thick roughcut. If it's old 7/8inch and your 3/4" ply is actual 3/4" then you can get away with bridging that seam with the OSB top layer.
Have you already bought the shingles?
Edited 1/17/2007 3:42 pm ET by shed
--- When you lay the top layer of 4x8 sheeting make sure to cover the seams of where the 3/4inch plywood is placed next to the original decking boards. ---We plan to.--- If possible, to make it meet the old decking run a furring strip on the framing member the thickness needed to have the 3/4inch ply sit level with the old decking. ---Too late, patching's already done (just finished it). But there really doesnt seem to be much height difference, certainly less than the existing irregularities due to knots, rotted out knot holes, uneven framing and/or framing reinforcement, etc.--- The idea is the most flat surface you can get without getting too carried away with the project. ---Understood.--- That is if the old roofing boards are 1 1/8" thick roughcut. If it's old 7/8inch and your 3/4" ply is actual 3/4" then you can get away with bridging that seam with the OSB top layer. ---They're definitely not 1 1/8". I had thought they were 1", but 7/8" is definitely a possibility.--- Have you already bought the shingles? ---Yep. GAF Sentinel, the 20-year standard 3-tab shingles at HD. Already downloaded the installation instructions, plan to apply drip edge all around and a double layer of roofing felt, starter course, 5" exposure.We've just re-nailed down all of the remaining old boards with 2 per 6-8" wide board at every solid piece of wood underneath. We've run out of galvanized 8d nails, and so I'm loading up the 6 remaining pieces of 3/4" plywood and am heading back to HD now. When I get back I'll take more pictures.Rebeccah
OK, progress photos.First, the patched sheathing. We've got about 2/3 of the second layer on now, too but it's not in these photos. We took back the rest of the plywood and got 7/16" OSB instead at less than 1/3 the cost.It did rain for about an hour last night, not hard, but some. Despite my advice that he get all his stuff out of the garage before we started, and despite my asking if we shouldn't tarp last night when we saw the clouds rolling in, he wanted to do neither - forever the optimist - and now he has some damage to his belongings. He and Eduardo did put tarps on the roof *after* it started raining.There's also some more shoring up that we would like to do, but with all the junk in the middle of the garage we can't get to it. So it will have to be later.Oh, crap. My camera wigged out on me for 5 out of the 6 sheathing photos and I didn't notice. It's been behaving more and more erratically. Anyway, here's the only one that came out.Rebeccah
And now the ones I'm not so proud of, but...These are the structural shoring up we had done prior to patching the sheathing (we've done a bit more since then). Just ignore all of the stuff in the garage obstructing the view. :)img0001 and img0002 show the sistered rafter tails. On img0001 you can see the bad birdsmouth cut. It turns out that a previous repair by someone two owners ago had the birdsmouth done the same way, and that's what Kalim copied. A couple of the existing rafter tails on the left were structurally OK, so we didn't sister them.img0006 is sistered rafter tails from the inside. The new pieces are 5' long, overlapping the old by 4' and extending 1' out beyond the wall.img0009 shows the sistered garage door header (which fortunately shows only a little bit of rot on one side and is not sagging at all) underneath the level, as well as some blocking between that front facade construct and the next rafter. The other newer looking pieces of wood are from someone else's previous repairs.img0014 shows a sistered ceiling joist. In the back you can see the section of top plate that was replaced. Unfortunately, since it's nominal size rather than the full dimensions of the original, the roof is now slightly lower in that corner. I wasn't able to think of what to do about it at the time, although I can think of a couple of things now. Also seen in this photo are Eduardo's hands sistering one of the studs in the back that was missing its bottom three feet. Just to the left of that is one that he has already done. To the left of that are two repairs that were done at some time in the past -- one is a board nailed on its side to the siding, which has about a 3/8" gap at the gable end top plate (so nothing is bearing on it), and the other is a 2x4 that was nailed to the siding and has about a 1/4" gap between it and the stud above it (you can see the color difference between grey painted and unpainted wood).img0015 shows another view of Eduardo's hands at work, and 2 2x4-8footers placed in the position of a ceiling joist (that is, resting on the top plates), but nailed to the studs across the back wall. This was Eduardo's idea. I wanted him to do diagonal bracing for shear, but this is better than nothing.More tomorrow.
Hey, I like those red jalapeno pepper lights!
Nearing completion...We've got almost all of the roofing felt on, and I have to leave for a class. One screw-up today, my fault -- I didn't read the label on every single roll of roofing felt we bought, and one of them was #15 instead of #30. I should have gotten suspicious because the edges were more ragged and it was easier to cut. But I didn't notice until we had rolled out and nailed 6 rows of it and were starting on the 7th. The previous roll had only lasted for 3 1/2 rows. It took a bit to persuade my coworkers that it *had* to be #15 because the diameter of the rolls was the same. So I got down and found the torn-off label on the ground, and sure enough.So, one and a half rows near the top of one side, and the bottom 4 rows on the other side are inadequate. Sigh. We *have* to get the shingles finished tomorrow, because we're leaving for Orange County to visit Kalim's kids, so there's no time to roll another layer.I may think differently in the morning, I'm not sure. We'll see.RebeccahOtherwise, everything went OK.
I'm no expert, but given the nature of your roofing job and the overall life expectancy of the building, I don't think the 15# vs. 30# felt is going to be a significant issue.
Don
dual ply of 15# is what I'd be using there anyway
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OK, looks like today we trim off the extra roofing felt on the gable end rake edges to 1/2, put the drip edge there, and apply shingles. I need to go get some 1 1/2" roofing nails. The ones we've been using are 1 1/4" (I was originally planning on just the 3/4" plywood and didn't want the nail ends showing through), but with the OSB and underlayment and the shingle width, 1 1/2" will be better for nailing on the shingles.Here are photos after all the sheathing is on. We did something that was probably dumb (think like a raindrop and all), and I was too embarassed to take a picture. We have some roll flashing (18" or 24" wide, I think, which we had thought of using to make a concrete form when we did the trench drain two years ago), and because the ridge is kind of uneven we used it folded over the top to smooth it out a bit.It does not overlap *any* of the felt, it's to be thought of as more smoothing like the second layer of decking (though I think Kalim thinks it will shed water). We have two layers of 30# felt over it that lap the felt on the sides. The only thing is that because of the roof sag, it didn't lie quite as flat as I would like. We had several pieces of various lengths of maybe 4' to 10', so it's better than it would have been with one 18' long piece. Anyway, of course it all looks nice and flat once the roofing felt is on. I just want to make sure our roofing nails are long enough.The whole idea had made more sense in the context of the old sheathing, which had a gap as wide as 1 1/2" at the ridge in places, and evidence of leaks at knot holes where the roofing material wasn't adequately supported. With the OSB, we have a 1/2" difference in height between the two sides at some points, but no real gaps. But I don't think any harm is being done. I hope not, anyway. Besides the sheathing photos, I'm posting an exaggerated sketch of how the flashing material applied over the ridge for smoothing purposes only looks.Rebeccah
The extra cap flashing will probably not help, but probably won't hurt either.
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First of all, Rebeccah, hats off to you for doing this project yourselves without a lot of previous experience! This IS your on- the- job training! No matter how much knowledge and experience the rest of us have, we all had a "first day"! The more work you do, the larger your base of experience, the easier future projects will be.
A little comment about the 15#-30# felt question. About 8 years ago I had ordered materials from my usual supply house to be delivered to a shingle job I picked up. The 30# felt underlayment I received was a different manufacturer and seemed a little thin. I called the supply house back and got this explanation. If the roll wrapper says "30#" it must weigh 30#/sq., but if it says #30, it's just the number the company uses for that felt, regardless of it's weight. Has anyone else heard of this, or had this experience? I returned all of the questionable felt and replaced it with "real" 30# from another supplier, after driving over and actually feeling it! Sorry about getting away from the original thread, but I think all the roofers out there are following this thread. Your opinions and comments are greatly appreciated!
getting a little chatty...
--- Has anyone else heard of this ---I've seen it mentioned on this forum a couple of times.Rebeccah
Yes, back in the seventies when asphalt first got expensive ( along with all oil products) they came up with all sorts of things to save cost.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=gravel+stop&btnG=SearchHere is aproduct from BUR roofing that could substitute for the curb and the drip edge on that rake, but i doubt you would find it at HD. It would be available at a roofing supplier Gravel stop
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The roof is DONE. Except we need to get some caulk for the exposed nail heads at the ends of the ridge. Just finished at 6:40pm, so too dark to take photos.
Miscellaneous odds and ends to do:
- Take the unused materials back to HD.
- Clean up all the crap from the yard and make a run to the dump.
- There are some 1x4 pieces between the rafters that need to get replaced all down one side and for a couple of openings on the other. Are these what is called frieze board?
- Install some diagonal bracing so I'll feel comfortable removing the temporary bracing.
- Clean up the garage.
- The worst of the rafters needs a full length sister still.
- The other rafter that got a two-piece sister needs a mending plate applied to the two pieces.
- Painting.
- Inspect the sill plate again and see what still needs replacing (there was a section replaced in the back).
- Oh, and put the next-door neighbor's clothes line pulley back up, with or without the pole that came down when it was unfastened from the side of the garage so the garage could be plumbed.
We can probably handle all of that ourselves without Eduardo's help.
Eduardo was a big help this week. He has at least some knowledge of carpentry and construction in general, and as has been mentioned in other threads, he showed up every day to work. Kalim thought the whole thing was only going to take two days, and he had other commitments for much of the week, so it was Eduardo and me for a lot of the work, especially Wednesday and today.
We're leaving for Orange County in the wee hours of the morning (unless the Grapevine is closed due to ice, got to remember to check), so I won't be able to post pictures of the shingles roof until probably Monday.
A big THANK YOU to everyone here for your help.
Rebeccah
Edited 1/19/2007 11:12 pm by Rebeccah
Photos of the new roof.
We also put 6" L brackets on the inside at the front and back of the garage, and 12" ones on the outside at the front, where the racking was the worst. No movement occurred when we removed the temporary bracing. (Hooray!)
Oh, and I was wrong: There *is* some sagging in that header over the garage door. The door itself sags about an inch or two in the middle, and now that's what prevents its closing fully (rather than the racking, which was the problem before).
yay !...... success
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Congrats to both you and Kalim. Great project to get your feet wet on. Don't forget to share the next one with us as well.