In an attempt to hire a GC for what appears to be a fairly straight forward open breezeway/deck construction, I am finding out that:
1. A majority of GC’s do not return phone calls
2. A majority do not show up on time for meetings…meetings that they schedule.
3. They take copies of plans and then do not return phone calls for weeks at a time.
While I would like to get the standard 3 plus estimates from GC’s and review them in order to make a good financial decision about the future of our project, I feel frustrated that getting one to follow through up and until the estimate is nearly impossible. This is what I believe forces people to settle on one of the first estimates that come through, increasing the chances of being unsatisfied.
Is there something that I am doing wrong or am I way off base?
Replies
I'm not a contractor (just a HO like you) and have learned a few things hanging around Breaktime:
Contractors are busy busy busy
Contractors can/will do some screening while talking to you one the phone. Why? See above point
There are skilled contractors and skilled businessmen. Not all are both (no offense meant, just an observation)
Contractors get their chain yanked a bunch by Time Wasting Home Owners (not saying you're one of them, but check out a current thread about this subject)
The nature of a contractor's work day is less structured than most folks (I work in an office and know what I have to do everyday, and my office is in the same location every day; a contractor may be here today, there tomorrow and has to contend with a lot of driving around -- maybe that's why they are late. Also, there is a probablility that there will be things that need their attention that they just didn't count on).
I'm sure a lot of others will chime in, but having just had a similar situation with roofers, I understand your pain. But, eventually the job is done and you'll be happy. At the minimum, the job will be done.
6milessouth
Bless you man. You nailed it. I thought so, at least.
Yes. Busy is an understatement, but it isn't always continuous. Sometimes there's that feast or famine aspect of business. When one call comes, thirty more follow, all within the same two hours.
Art: To the original query, from the contractors perspective, things that might help you get what you want and be happy at the end.
Referrals - knowing someone who can vouch for the contractor does two good things. One is it sets your mind at ease. The second, when you call the guy, and you say "I like what you did with Mrs Jones' basement" you've got his attention. You are now linked to a current customer. And customers talk. Maybe it's unfair, but we're a little clicque-ish at times. Who you know.
Professional organisations - home builders, for one example. Granted, like the BBB, you pay the fee and you're a member. But people don't stay members who don't believe in it, and the people who run the office typically know who the trunk slammers are and who the reputable people are. Calling the main place might even be a good way of filtering out some who either aren't qualified for the specific task at hand or simply aren't interested. Remodelers all have different comfort zones. Things they take on, specialise in, do and don't do. Not returning a call might be an indicator of low interest - from not being the right guy for the job.
Have your ducks in a row. If you're not hiring a design/build firm, dont expect the contractor to figure out what you want. I fight this a lot. Yes, I've seen baths I like and some I didn't. But that is no indicator of what YOU might want in your place. I don't like offering opinions on style or design. Material selection is another deal entirely. They should be able to speak to that. But have a drawing of what you want. And know what you want ahead of time. This wall moves, toilet goes there, tub leaves and we're framing a tiled shower there, as opposed to "we think we might want to redo the bath."
And when you find someone you think you can work with, ask for references. There's a polite and a snotty way of doing it. I'd say it early - like before you have a contract in the works, and basically like hey - we think we like you so far. We'd be even more comfy if we could just talk with a couple of former clients to get an idea of how things went - do you have anyone you'd recommend? Nobody ever asks for references. Sad. I think I've been asked once. I don't know how many hundreds of people I've done work for. But it's a great way of weeding out bad apples. There's a number of builders here that would be out in short order if anyone bothered to talk to their former (and never again) customers. "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I went through the same thing with subcontractors last year when I built my house. I think this is exactly why you need to work hard to get your three quotes, do you want to waste your time and money with someone that takes your plans then can't even return a call. I had better luck in the Winter months as most of the trades in Chicago area are slower at that time.
Good Luck - Jack
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=47494.26
_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
Be careful you'll loop back to yourself and forget what side your in and be trapped betwix and between.
yea
checked to be sure that I put them in the correct places
someone had mentioned "the other thread" and that had come to mind
so...
interesting how both threads basicly started with the same things, just different sides of the fence_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
As a contractor Let me say I feel your pain. Similarly tho I would ask,
Why doesn't a homeowner call back after I leave an estimate, to at least say thank you for your time but we're going to use another contractor.
I have never recieved in the 30 years I've contracted a return call saying thank you for your time but...
I agree with you I find it appalling that a contractor doesn't return calls. Being busy is a poor excuse. I have always returned calls, even to the one's I know aren't worth my time.
A simple basic level of respect on both sides is all that is needed.
If this seems like a rant I appoligies. But the last several bids I have given has resulted in no such level of respect.
The kindest thing I think I can do for myself is to hold my breath.
Edited 9/16/2004 2:56 pm ET by JAGWAH
Thanks to both yourself and others for responding on this matter. It helped to hear both perspectives.
I keep telling myself...it is only house and it will get done at some point.
Thanks
Hey Art,
Sounds like maybe you've had run of not so good business men answering the phone....but they may be great craftsmen so don't count 'em out yet. This is the busy season, but people shouldn't make appointments if they can't be there on time. And returning phone calls is just common courtesy. But I won't lie to you, I've shown up late (with a phone call though) and I've been up to a day late on a call back. I try to write everything down, but I do space out sometimes "in the heat of battle".
Anyway.... don't get too frustrated. It's not worth it. And don't hold your previous contractor's apathy or tardiness against the next one.... he could be the one you want to do business with. Hang in there, you'll find him.
Fill out your profile and maybe someone here can help you out.
Where'd you happen upon the numbers of these contractor's? Are you looking for a professionally licensed company or just a side job type of guy?
That could be part of the problem you are facing.
The thing about my situation is that I had originally started my search through word of mouth. After gathering the names from friends and family, I went to the phone book for more names. This way, if I obtained 10 names I would at the very least get 3 responses expressing an interest to look at the job. I do sympathize with the craftsmen that get their "chain yanked" by people who are not sure nor serious about what they are looking for. I not only have architects plans drawn up, but also a document with all of my contact information and any specifics that I can give them. So I figure I am ready and prepared for a
In response to other posts that mention discussing with the contractor the amount that you are willing to spend...this seems like a bit of a trap if you ask me. I do if fact have a budget in mind or else I would not have even entertained the idea of the remodel. Don't you feel (on the customer end) that it would make more sense to discuss the project, get feedback from the GC such as timing/materials suggested/subs he/she uses etc... get the pricing back....review the 3 or 4 quotes and make your determination after carefully comparing apples to apple?
I agree completely that follow up is extremely important. Time is money and the consideration involved in meeting with a GC and taking away from future business merits a thank you and a handshake at the very least.
"In response to other posts that mention discussing with the contractor the amount that you are willing to spend...this seems like a bit of a trap if you ask me."
Has anyone asked?
I usually do. And if I don't get an honest answer ... or feel the potential client doesn't trust me enough to let me know pretty much the most important bit of information I'll need to know and will eventially know ... then I'm not so quick to return that bid either .... and when I do get around to ballparking it .... it's just a wide open ball park.
Remodeling/building is a game of trust and personalities. Actually nailing the boards together is the easy part. When remodeling, I live in your house for what could be months on end ... the personalities have to mesh. There also must be mutual trust.
I trust you to pay me ... U trust me to build what ya bought.
And both both had better trust each other from day one. Your budget is the biggest factor deciding whether or not this building grows outta the dirt.
I also expect to deal with adults, making informed adult decisions. And as much as people hate to talk about "money" ... I gotta know how much U got and U gotta know how much I want.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jeff, you're right. Without the trust factor, all is lost. The problem with both parties involved is that with normal relationiships, it takes time to develop trust. Far to many contractors and customers have been duped by a kind word and nice smile. That's why customers should check references even though they hate to.
And smart, really smart contractors doing larger projects get approval and run a credit check on the home owner. Home owners could do the same about us. There is just too much money involved to "trust" too quickly by either party.
Personally I never ask what their budget is.
1. Most done have agood perception of the true costs of remodeling, anyway.
2. It really does not matter. If I want to spend $25K on a new truck, but fall in love with a $30K truck, a full 20% more than I want to spend, I'll spend it anyway.
Besides, once I find out the general scope of work to be done, within about 20 minutes I can give them a pretty close ballpark price, or something like between $8K and $10K say to remodel their bathroom if they don't want a $2K vanity and granite tops. If they say they are not sure about the caliber of the materials to be used, then I simply say between $8K and $20K, stating that obviously there is a big difference between a Ford Crown Victoria and a Mercedes, and suggest that they start prioritizing the "what's" to get to "usable" numbers. Still, and after such a conversation, I would only have to be in their home for about an hour to still come up with a reasonably close ballpark.
One way or another, within one hour, I will have given them one ballpark and a handful of options with prices.
Let me add one more cirtical comment:
If any contractor even hopes to be able to charge for a detailed Proposal, he had better look like, act like, smell like, and speak like - in other words - a "professoinal." Not like someone who just spent the day at Woodstock or crawled out from under a rock. Yes, IMAGE matters.
Here in Naoles, FL we have a lot of "business" men (?) going on sales calls or otherwise spesking to their clients while wearing boat shoes with no socks. I remember a couple of years ago getting complimented upon my business attire by a women who told me she had just an hour earlier chastised a 30 something young man who showed up at her door to sell her window covering. I'd guess it was to be at least a $10K - $15K job for him. She had the cahones to tell him she expected to see a business man, not a "preppy", show up. Obviously he did not get the job. I did, and I don't even sell window treatments, but I subbed it out to a "business man" and made my 25% on his sale, then coordinated our work with his installation.
Like earings on a man, "cool" belongs in your private social life - not in the business world.
Sonny, thanks for all the great posts. Maybe some day, when you retire, you can write your own builders' business book.
I do, however, get a kick out of your emphasis on dress. I realize you live in the old blue-haired conservative lady capital of the world, and this is your reality. I live in Missoula, MT, and if you showed up at many homes, as a builder, with business attire you would probably intimidate a great majority of your potential clients.
A huge percentage of the people around here with money to spend probably don't even own suits, are under the age of 40, and in Missoula, probably even vote Democrat. They are going skiing or hiking as soon as the meeting is over.
Clean and neat - good. Businessman - uh, no thanks.
Don't get me wrong, I wear the same here as I did in Michigan, a rural factory and farm area. Dockers pants or equal, sport short, solid color or otherwise - nothing loud - shaven, socks and polished shoes, often they are loafers.
If I lived in Texas, it might even be boots. My point is - well, you get my point.
BTW, my "uniform" is a short sleeve white button down collar dress shirt (Wal-Mart $12) and khaki pants - also Wal-Mart for about $15. Just threw out three pair that had to many "spots" on them and bought 3 new paint. I do splurge on shoes, believing in wearing a good pair - Rockport @ $110. Same shirt but white pants for painting jobs.
Guess I should have said business attire for your area.
I also keep a cordless Norelco shaver in my truck door pocket to touch up after lunch.
Remember that old jingle, I think it was for Burma Shave: Look sharp. Feel sharp. Be sharp. Well, I'm old too! Never got into the "relaxed" lifestyle that allows some people to go to weddings with blue jeans. I like the old customs of showing respect for your audience, host, or occasion.
I agree. Most people know how much they want to spend. What they dont know is how much they will get for their money.
Take a kitchen for example. If someone says I have $20,000 to put into my kitchen I can tell them they are going to get stock cabinets and a laminate top.
If someone says I have $25,000 I can give them stock cabinets and a granite top.
If they have $ 30,000 we can also change out a window and put down a new floor.
$40,000 and its custom cabinets and granite.
I can tailor the project to fit the budget, but I can't tailor the budget to fit the project. Give me a budget to start with and we can all lay our cards on the table. Eventually I am going to find out how much you have. Lets cut out the bull and down to business.
Dont call and say "I'm thinking of having this done and I'm wondering how much it would cost if we did....". My first thought is "Tire-kicker".
Key words "thinking...wondering...would...if..."
Try a different approach. Instead of making your best poker face hoping someone will bid lower than the others, figure out what you are willing to spend then ask 3 contractors what you can get for that amount of money. Then ask them to put a proposal in writing and compare those.
Call them and say "I want this work done, like so, by such and such a date and I have X amount of dollars (available) to get it accomplished. Are you interested and will it fit your schedule? My first thought is "a serious prospect"
Then you are not shopping price AND Personality at the same time.
Maverick,
I dunno, I have to agree with you. I'm still feeling my way into this business with expectations to being full time by years end, so I been giving a lot of thought to this very topic as I try to finalize how I am going to present myself to potential clients.
I'm thinking that it might be wise to do a mix of charging for estimates and not charging. If the HO is letting me know they're playing a real ballgame then I might be inclined to give a free estimate and compete fairly for their business. If I get a sampling of calls using those keywords "wonder, if," etc and they're not sounding like they're in the game I might charge for an estimate.
The ethics of that I don't fully know, just tossing the idea in my head for now. I want to treat all fairly but I am indeed learning from a lot on BT that tire-kickers are all over the place and can be our biggest waste of time.
"If the HO is letting me know they're playing a real ballgame then I might be inclined to give a free estimate and compete fairly for their business."
In my 32 years I've rarely found a potential customer who I could pick that was playing, or serious. In their mind, they are always serious. On the flip side, I've closed jobs for several hundreds of thousands from people who started out saying thinks like: "We're thinking of......" Last year my son got a job that started with "I'm kicking around......" It ended up being $1.3M.
You have a policy or you don't have a policy. And by having a policy, that policy covers mistakes you make even with excellent qualifying tactics. Actually, it doesn't "cover" them, it "eliminates" them. It's the old, "No ticky, no washy" saying.
It's a pathetic shame that so many competent contractors had not a clue as to the tremendous value that a detailed Proposal represents to a potential customer. They do, but you don't.
One would think that if electricians, plumbers, overhead door companies here in Naples, charge a minimum of $40 just for a "trip charge", and just to show up and say: "Hi. I'm Joe from ABC Electrical Co." one would assume that "showing up", taking down info for at least an hour, then going back to your office to spend another 1-8 hours working up a detailed Proposal, then "showing up again to present it is worth even more than $40. Maybe even $42.
Even with those who are not "businessmen," but "tradesmen" instead, one would think, realize that time is money.
Nahhhh. Continue to drop 15-30 hours each week when you wear your philanthropic hat. Never tell anyone that you don't do charitable work. You do it those 15 - 30 hours each week.
And asking people to tell you want they want to spend for what they want to have done, does anyone here really think that any substantial percentage of the remodeling buying public think that they really have a clue - like buying a car or dishwasher? How many times have we all heard: "Gee. I didn't think it would cost that much." The next time someone says that to you, ask them how much they thought it should cost. The will reply something like: "Well, not that much." Then ask them to tell you how much they thought the material would cost, the demo labor, the installation labor, the content protection labor, the debris removal labor, the administrative labor, the logistics time, how many man hours and at what rate. See if you get even one answer.
Then get ready for the blow up when you tell them that you put a markup on the material. WHAT??? I got to pay you WHAT? Then I'll supply all of the materials. Then the next blow up is when you say that you cannot warranty materials that they supply. WHAT??? Why not? You're installing them!!!
By now their heads are spinning and they are thoroughly convinced that you are trying to rip them off.
Understand that to most customers you and your time is absolutely worthless, worthless when you take the time to visit them during your "personal time" like weekends and evenings, worthless while giving them design ideas, and worthless wile taking the tremendous time to obtain the needed info to create that detailed Proposal. Your time is only worth money to them when your hand contains a hammer or paint brush.
But al of the above is not the public's fault. It's our fault. Give TV sets for 500 years to anyone who calls, and deliver it to boot, and then start charging even $100 for a $500 TV set and your a criminal!
Not all, but for the majority of the public, the above is 100% true.
By the way, in my 32 years as a remodeler I can count on one hand how many potential customers had the courtesy to call me to tell me that they decided not to hire me. Less than five! The rest just "used" me, and I didn't even get the opportunity to have a cigarette with them afterwards.
In our current era of "entitlements", the use of us continues to be one as well!
First meeting, a verbal ball park and that's it. After that it's a "purchase" for a detailed SCA "document" and the many hours and "expertise" that goes into it.
As I've said before, take your car or truck with an electronic problem - remember, you take it there - they don't come to your home - to a dealership . See if they will diagnose your "problem" for free. Ever hear of a car dealership owner going under, or getting a divorce because his wife and kids never saw him, or being at the store DURING evenings AND weekends, AND weekdays?
That happenes to doctors a lot, but at least they get paid for ALL of their time. Unfortunately for them however, now the trial lawyers get their money, so they get screwed thrice, by their customers, their insurance carriers, AND the trial lawyers.
In other words, be a "business man", or a schmuck like I was for about 20 years before I said to myself: "ENOUGH!"
Now I only rant (like now) when I get mad at seeing my peers make the same mistakes I made.
Awesome post Sonny. That's how I need things to be said to begin understanding them... a little thick over here, but I'm starting to catch on!
Hi all,
I'm a fairly-recent Breaktime HO reader, trying to absorb information, and there's something I keep thinking about in these pricing/bidding threads...
I totally understand the value of being a serious customer and not wasting the time of crafstmen when asking about work. But what if I'm simply not educated enough to even know a ballpark estimate? I need that first, approximate, "it ranges from $xxx to $yyy to do what you're asking" to decide whether what I'm thinking about is even feasible.
So where/how should I ask the "wondering how much it would cost" questions?
In your case, I would find a builder through referrals, call him/her and state your situation: "We want to remodel the bathroom or kitchen or whatever, and have no clue what is involved as far as cost and scope of work, and we don't even have any plans. Can you come by one evening and consult with us, and we'll pay you for your time." With that call, the builder knows what to expect, knows that he will most probably not be asked to do a detailed proposal, and it won't be lost time. A smart builder will recognioze that it could be a prelude to a nice project.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
we'll pay you for your time." With that call, the builder knows what to expect
The other nice thing there, is that the contractor gts to decide whay, if any, to charge.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Right, and the decent thing would be for the contractor to tell the caller 'OK, I'll be there at 5 pm and I normally charge $40/hr" or whatever.Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
or whatever
Correct. You get a great customer or great project, you could even give them a credit against the first "real" invoice. That way you are staying "in principle" as you have billed for your time, while also creating a benefit for a good (even if new) customer.
You get to keep an "ace in the hole" for deadbeat, tire kicking, and acehole clients, too. Funny how easy they are to spot after a while. Not perfectly "spotable,: of course--few human endeavors are ever perfect.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
There's nothing wrong with calling a contractor to at least get a ballpark price. He owes you that because by inviting him into your home, you are giving im p"permission" to sell you something. A book entitled: "Permission Marketing" covers that concept. His price should also include what's included and what's not, like a 'standard" shower faucet as opposed to a $300 one.
It is easier for a contractor who has been around for a while to be able to give a reasonable spread in the ball park as to from a new contractor who doesn't have many years under his/her belt. Furthermore, if the contractor has a niche in remodeling bathrooms and kitchens only, his balpark price will probaly be closer to the final price and be more definitive.
And do not buy price. You're not comparing a Model # 11111 GE Refrigerator from Sears price to someone else for the same identical item, an item taht has already been built and with it's quality already been built into it. You are actually buying a "promise" of something that you anticipate will end up with "what" you anticipate.
Go with someone whose personality and yours "click." But even then check references and go see a couple of jobs he's done. Ask the people what they liked about him and what they thought his short comings might be. And if you still like him because his short comings are something you can address, go with him.
Remember, the difference between a cup of coffee at McDonalds, and a family style restaurant, and a high end restaurant can be summed up in one word - "Experience." That's why we pay for if everything else is the same.
That's why there is a book entitled: "The Experience Economy." Because "brand names" are created thru the experience as "perceived" by the customer. What "I" want is not important. Only what you want is important, and as a so called "professional" one of my first commitments to you is to be able to provide options for you to consider. It's your money, and your home, so the decision based upon professional options that I provide rest with you.
while we have a home owner on the line ...
here's a Q from another thread ... that may fit in here ...
Art ... how would you react if the one guy that did make the apointment without being a day late ... said he'd be happy to look at your project but he charges for an "estimate"?
Just curious to get some home owner in put that fits another discussion.
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I'll pop in here and say I would not mind paying for an estimate. The contractor is a professional and I am paying for his time. I pay for that time on occasion even when he's not at my property doing work. It's more complicated than that, but I'll tell you that I'm a doctor, and I expect to get paid in the Emergency Department even if I tell you something you don't want to hear or you don't get what you want. So, what is good for the doc is good for the contractor. You're a professional, and I am using you time. You shouldn't give it away.
Thanks you, Dr. Maxwell. Just be sure you don't get an "estimate" which many contractors consider to be a one pager with very ambiguous statemensts, but a detailed Proplsal statting the scope of work, brand names, etc. My own SCA - Specification and Cost Analysis for "large" projects (have 3 contracts) is 27 pages:
Contents page
Contract components
Project and Scope Description
Specification of Materials
Drawings and/or Plans
Subcontractor List
Existing Conditions
Working Days & Hours
Allowances
Owner Supplied Materials and/or Labor
Payment Schedules, Terms and Conditions
Owner Responsibilities
Contractor Responsibilities
Hidden, Concealed and Unforeseeable Conditions
Disasters
Addendums, Change Orders and Additional Work Authorizations
Schedule
Delays
Debris Removal
Clean Up
Termination & Cancellation
Construction Standards and Warranties
Declaration of Completed Project
Disclosure Statement
Arbitration
Owner Acceptance of Document Contents
Here's what you do. It's easy. I am presuming you have a set of plans and specs for your project.
Ask the managers at three different local lumberyards who the best three or four GCs are for your type of job. Pick three from the lists you get.
Call them all and tell them you want a proposal for your work, and that you will pay up front for the proposal, and that you realize the payment is in no way going toward the job's cost if you award it. If they say they are not usually in the habit of charging for bids, tell them you want to start a new trend in the area.
Then review your proposals when you get them, pick your GC, then call him and tell him he's got the job, and when he tells you he has a six month backlog, tell him you'll be patient, then write him a check for, say, 50 or 60 percent of the total job cost, as a down payment. If he says, hey, wait, that sounds like too much, you only have to put down a few thou as earnest money to buy a whole house, tell him you want him to feel good about you, and again, you want to start a new trend.