Hey all. I’ve been thinking alot lately about changing the focus of my business. I’ve been a gc for the past five years working alone usually, but occasionally with a helper. We build 1 or 2 houses a year, mostly specs and I fill in the rest of the time working alone on small projects such as flooring and trim.
My dillema lately has been that I’m tired of picking up the slack for subs who don’t do what they promise, don’t come back and correctly finish punchout items etc. Also, I find myself wasting time dickering with subs and suppliers over issues such as “was the product installed right or was it a manufacturers defect”.
I realize that employee management is not my strong suit. It is one of the reasons I prefer working alone. Most gc’s around here have at least several employees and don’t do alot of the physical stuff. I enjoy the physical stuff (most days) and find that my work is generally as good as the subs.
I just think that if I specialized in one or two areas I might have fewer headaches and less stress. I would only have myself and the client to concern myself with and not have to worry about scheduling,callbacks, bidding, billing etc. for someone else and their crew. I’m probably being too optimistic, but it seems that all my subs are very busy and making good money. They are in ,out and on to the next job while I’m getting permits, picking up supplies,explaining to Joe that Harry was supposed to be here yesterday to do x but he didn’t show, so I’ll take care of x to keep Joe working even though that messes up my whole day etc. In short, It’s been a bad couple of weeks and I wonder if having a more limited scope wouldn’t make life easier and perhaps, more profitable.
Any thoughts on switching focus from small gc to full time subcontractor?
Replies
SCAMPERNATRA,
You might want to try and move this to the Gen. discussion folder or the business folder, I found it in the Tools folder.
Sometimes it seems that all a gc does is run around putting out fires or preventing fires. What about stepping back and looking at how you are running things/ setting things up. Is there anything that you can change to make things easier? What about giving a bigger time space between subs to account for one of them not showing up?
-m2akita
I meant to post in the business folder. Don't know how it got here. how do I switch it over?
think real hard ...
might be the grass is always greener ....
Subs think the GC makes all the money ...
the GC thinks the subs make all the money ...
and the home owners think everyone is stealing all their money!
Subbing ... you know the drill ... whay can ya do ... well and quick?
maybe those half assed subs are making more because they're skipping the final details on their way to the bank ...
if those details bother ya now ... they'll both ya then ... and you'll still be fixing them as the other subs are driving to the bank.
Another way to look at it .... I think it's easier to book 3 four month long jobs ...
than it is to fine 12 one month long jobs ...
as a sub ... you'll be digging around alot more looking for alot more jobs ...
Not that thta's a bad thing .... just different way of life.
I like to combine the two .... do as much of my own stuff as I can ..... then in fill with GC's I've subbed from before ... after too much of either ... they can both get old ....
almost like work?
I'm slowing growing towards all my own work ... but I still like to fit in some sub work here and there ... for one ... every now and then it's nice to have someone else pretend they're thinking .... plus ... like GrandMa always said ...
Ya never know!
My phone could fall off the wall tomorrow and without the connections the kid would starve ... this way ... there's always work somewhere .....
plus ... a little of both lets ya pick and choose a little more ...
btw ... the times I enjoy someone else pretending to be doing the thinking get shorter and shorter each time .... especially when I'm spending half my "sub" time doing the Gc's work.
pretty much the opposite of youe situation ...
but then again .. exactly the same ...
sub .. GC ... it's the person ... not the title.
You'll want those details done right no matter what they call ya.
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
You make some valid points, but one thing I don't get. If I'm the siding sub for example and I see the flooring guys doing a crappy job, it might bug me but I have no interest in seeing that they fix their work other than being part of a team. In other words it's not my place to question them as the gc would. I do my work and move on while the gc spins his wheels.
I do enjoy the variety as a gc but I hate dealing with other peoples mess ups. I have enough of my own to deal with. Getting steady work might be a challenge, but it seems that there could be less wasted time (and more time to produce) if I only had my income and my work to worry about. I know the grass is always greener, I just need a new mower.
My equation for all of this
GC = finding good subs
Sub = finding good GCs to work for AND finding good employees
GC with good subs = happy GC
Sub with good GCs to work for = still jumping job to job with little security. (even the best GCs will drop you if a decent sub comes along with a lower price)
Around my area, there is a lot of work... both remodel and new work. GCs that are quality have little problem finding jobs.
Subs, on the other hand, have some issues. Due to the crush on pricing that is being forced by the big builders... the custom GCs are pushing the limits on pricing too (they figure they can do it if MIHomes does it). the ability to find good labor is a HUGE one.... do you want that problem?
The topper of the equation. When I go home at night when I am a GC on a job.. I go to sleep knowing that I have coordinated actually building something (the reason I got into this biz).
When I go home when I am working as a sub... I think about what a #%$^ the GC is until I cry myself to sleep for bidding that work so low and having to put up with that %$#%$ GC !! LOL
Moral... get better subs if you are having problems with the ones you have. Don't worry... they still call you a %$%#ing GC at night anyway!
Edited 8/10/2004 11:42 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
I can't really add anything to what Jeff just said.
Consider his points well, greener grass is exactly what came to my mind. Not all subs are making a killing. Sounds like maybe you need to ride herd a little harder on your subs so you don't get stuck all the time.
As Jeff says, switching sides won't change the way you sweat the details. They'll always be there and you will take care of them - figure out a way that you get compensated for that attribute.
I would suggest that the cost pressures found with new home construction make it difficult for either situation to make you the profit you want.
Try the remodeling market. It gives you the opportunity to do your best work, and still make a profit.
Sounds like it would make a nice fit with your personality and style.
Jeff has some good points.
If you do consider the sub route, make sure you consider supply and demand.
You might be great at something, the best, but if there's 12 other guys who do a decent job and 10 people that need that type of work done, well there will be 3 Cory's going hungry.
Subs can run a lean operation but there is less cushion when things get lean.
If you can find a need that you can fulfill, preferabbly with some barriers that will limit the next batch of layoff victims from joining you, I'm sure you would do well.
-edit- AFAIK, the only way to change the folder your thread is in is for the SYSOP to do it. Shoot him an email.
Jon Blakemore
Edited 8/10/2004 11:06 pm ET by Jon Blakemore
I don't think I would ever totally give up the gc. It would always be there as a backup. Trying to get more business as a sub is an idea I've been kicking around just to see what the market would be like.
I would think retaining your status as a GC might increase your overhead and headaches somewhat. You would probably need to keep more tools on hand, maintain your accounts and contacts with suppliers and subs, and the paper work might be more complicated than a specialty sub.
Of course the ability to take on various types of work is good insurance.
I should add that I'm referring to a situation where you do one or two things exclusively. I think Jeff's subbing is more like running a kitchen reno almost as he would if it were his job.
Jon Blakemore
I think Jeff's subbing is more like running a kitchen reno almost as he would if it were his job.
U got that part right ... not the traditional knock it out and move on to the next one .. kinda subbing .... I sub myself out as either tile ... trim ... or cabs ... or all three .. which pretty much make up finishing off a kitchen or bath ..... works well for the design/build guys I know ... their crews rough the place out ... then I tend to the K and/or B as their guys move on to finishing the rest of the place ... usually either large scale additions or whole house reno's ...
As to worrying about the details ... I mean ... most subs will say ther are done when they feel they are done ... if something wasn't prepared for them ... they'll work around it and leave that detail unfinished ... then move onto the next job ....
Before I subbed I hated that attitude ... after I started subbing ... I amlost admire it!
Myself ... I've last money waiting for my prep work to be done right .. or have just done it myself .... while I know full well other subs would have just worked with what they were given and not looked back .... those subs with the brand new trucks ... they don't look back ....
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
hi
sounds to me like you take most subs for face value and assume they will do what they say is this true ?? i have a simple question why is it that most gcs end up with a punch list that other trades were suppose to do ? why are they paid for what they didnt do ? i have been guilty of this for years !!! but now what i do is tell them when the owner pays me and accepts that area of the contract they will get paid ! put it in writting with them
but now what i do is tell them when the owner pays me and accepts that area of the contract they will get paid ! put it in writting with them
Does that work?
when I sub ... I write a contract the same as I do for most any other customer .. all be it a much more condensed version ... but I lay out my start check amount .. and my pay schedule ... phase one get's paid for before phase two is started ... for the bigger jobs ... then there's always the final which is held for customer inspection ... and I usually trap the customer before the gc and get a mini walk thru even before the big official walk thru .. which usually involves them saying ... it's all fine .. we looked at it all yesterday with Jeff ...
I won't pull out the tools without a start check ... sometime 10% ... sometimes 50% ...depends on the job size ...
When I GC a job .... I get all the mechanicals moneys before they start ...
that's written into my contract with the HO ... then ... I usually pay my guys as I expect to be paid ... and I don't wait for a customer walk thru ... thry get paid when they're done ... I do the final ... if the customer don't like something ... then we all figure it out ... and usually the customer has to pay for a change ... as if I OK'd it ... unless I missed something ... it's OK. Subs that need an inspector to come in and give the official electric or plumbing, ete inspection .. get paid after we get the signed sticker ...
Under your rules .. I don't think we'd work together( as in .. it sounds like you wouldn't agree to my contract) ... and I bet half my guys wouldn't either ...
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Face value,yes. Smart business,no. How do you handle sub payments when the checks are coming through a bank via draws? These can slow down the whole process. As far as the gc having a punch list of subs work, I know I need to work harder at getting items corrected before they ever get put on a list. Some things can get missed however and when they are discovered (say a roof leak or nail pops) it can be a pita to get a sub back in while the owner is calling you everyday. At that point you may have to fix the problem yourself and deal with the sub later
Scampernatra,
Where are you from?
Whitehall, Michigan. An hour west of Grand Rapids.