Hi, all – I’m just a lowly residential archy trying to keep my clients in line with realistic expectations about pricing. I’ve got a pretty good idea about square footage costs in general, but I have no idea when they ask me to break out the electrical or plumbing portions of the house budget.
Do any of you have a rule of thumb $-per-sf estimate for elect, mech and plumbing? My houses tend to be medium finishes, nothing high end. And they’re located in the Denver area.
Thanks in advance.
Replies
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Hi, all - I'm just a lowly residential archy trying to keep my clients in line with realistic expectations about pricing. I've got a pretty good idea about square footage costs in general, but I have no idea when they ask me to break out the electrical or plumbing portions of the house budget.
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I have the same problem! It's bad enough that the same size kitchen can vary in price by tens of thousands of dollars depending on what equipment or cabinets or counters get chosen, but most contractors around here don't break down their prices at all. People complain that architects are bad at designing to budget - but it's hard when you have no information.
>>I've got a pretty good idea about square footage costs in general, but I have no idea when they ask me to break out the electrical or plumbing portions of the house budget.
"Square fooage costs." Hah!
Anyway. You can be fairly close if you tell them that plumbing and electrical will each be about 1/4 to 1/3 of the "square footage costs."
The main design areas where you can effect price is total footage, roof complexity, level of finish, and cost of appliances.
You do research cost of appliances and finish materials, don't you?
You can try going back to contractors who have completed projects for you in the past and offer to buy their detailed estimates.
EDIT:
>>but most contractors around here don't break down their prices at all.
Why should they?
Do you break down your prices by how much it costs to design the kitchen as opposed to the den? Or drawing vs research?
The best way to design to a budget is to quit using the "Bid Wars" process and start using the "Team Building" process.
Bid Wars: The process of choosing the contractor best at cutting corners to build your dream.
Team Building: Creating a team of mutally appreciative, helpful, and skilled members to accomplish a goal.
SamT
Edited 5/27/2005 3:00 pm ET by SamT
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The best way to design to a budget is to quit using the "Bid Wars" process and start using the "Team Building" process.
Bid Wars: The process of choosing the contractor best at cutting corners to build your dream.
Team Building: Creating a team of mutally appreciative, helpful, and skilled members to accomplish a goal."
I do try to do this. There are contractors I work with regularly and I often bring them into the process early. However, many homeowners are nervous about committing themselves to a particular contractor early in the process and feel more comfortable with "bid wars". They don't, by the way, always go with the lowest bidder though.
As for whether I break down costs - I can give clients a ballpark idea of what the schematic design phase costs compared to the construction documents. But I have no idea how much a designing a den costs compared to a kitchen. Less I'm sure. :-)
I understand that you might not have that information either, but most contractors I know, do have different subs do the electrical and plumbing work - it would be easy enough to list them as separate items on the bid.
Tea,
>>most contractors I know, do have different subs do the electrical and plumbing work - it would be easy enough to list them as separate items on the bid.
Uhm . . .
Imagine this, if you will;
George GC gets a bid from Erik Electrician for $5135. George breaks out the phases to Harry HO, where Harry sees George is charging $6933.
During the course of events, Harry runs into Erik.
Harry, "Dang, Erik, $7000 is awful high, isn't it?"Erik, "$7000! I only bid $5000."Erik, to himself, "George is making $2000 off my labor. That scumbag. I gotta find another GC to work for."
Later in the week, Harry and George.
Harry, "George, why are you charging me $2000 more than Erik is charging? I think you need to rebate me $2000, or I'm calling my lawyer, the BBB, and the DA."
George, "Hunh?!? What? Lawyer? What's going on?!"
SamT
"Anyway. You can be fairly close if you tell them that plumbing and electrical will each be about 1/4 to 1/3 of the "square footage costs." "
Interesting. I'd love to go back and get these numbers for various projects. Paying a contractor for the breakdown of the costs is a good option. I also would love to see more of the real costs of the jobs after the client has finished all the change orders and after all the bad news is revealed in renovation jobs. (I had one recently where when we opened the walls we discovered extensive termite damage.)
The last job for which I have a good breakdown was a kitchen renovation. Original kitchen was gutted, and a small back porch was folded into it.
Carpentry and tile laying were $13,000
Plumbing (which included adding a powder room) was $4000
Electrical was $2000
Appliances, plumbing fixtures, cabinets, counters, wallpaper, tile, flooring and doors and windows were $11,000.
I wonder how I got such a good deal on the electrical work?
Of all the phases of the project, why would you be most concerned about electrical and plumbing breakouts? It's not like you're going to eliminate the sink, or knock off a few outlets to get within budget. The big savings are going to come from changing finishes, or simplifying the design.
Finishes are easy to get a cost for, or at least a relative cost between two items. For example, if you're over budget, you can ditch the granite tops and go with laminate. Or ditch the porcelain tile and use vinyl instead.
The problem with contractors giving bid breakdowns is that the numbers are either "bare", with OH&P listed separately, or the numbers are "loaded", with OH&P included. In the first case, the OH&P shows up as a big lump sum at the bottom of the breakdown, and the customer has a fit over "how much the contractor is gouging us". When the numbers are loaded, they see the kitchen sink listed at $800, when they saw it on the shelf for $600 at Home Depot, and it's "that's ridiculous- I can buy the sink for $600!" Hence, breakdowns usually cause more problems than they solve.
The solution is to get help early in the design phase with budgeting from a helpful contractor (or a cost consultant- hint, hint). If the client isn't comfy with foregoing the bidding process and the bids all come in our of range, select a contractor anyway, commit to them, and work with them to VE the job to within budget.
Bob
I'm trying to get this client a ballpark price without involving a contractor, at this point. I hate caling subs and have them price a project only to not have them get the job, or the job going forward at all. In short, I don't want to waste a subs time. Or a GC for that matter. I do have a great relationship with several GC's, and will ask the question from them. Just thought someone here might have a ballpark sf idea.I can usually tell a client, "It's 35k for a powder room, 50k for a kitchen and it's 200 bucks a foot for an addition or a new house," but they all want to know how much for the pumbing or electrical, etc. They don't care about a $600 sink at a big box. It's way too early for that. I just wish I had a number I could give them as a rule of thumb, like $12.50 per sf for plumbing or something general like that.
I dunno- I still don't get why that matters. Knowing it's $12/50/SF for plumbing doesn't get them any closer to making or breaking the project than the $200/SF addition number does.
But then again, people never cease to amaze me with what they expect.....lol.
Bob
"I dunno- I still don't get why that matters. Knowing it's $12/50/SF for plumbing doesn't get them any closer to making or breaking the project than the $200/SF addition number does."
Well, sometimes it might. Sometimes it is a question of Plan A which leaves the plumbing where it is, and Plan B which is much nicer but moves a kitchen to the other side of the house. We know Plan B is going to cost a lot more, but I can't always tell my client much more. It's not that different from being able to tell a client they can have their deck in composites but that the price will go up a certain percentage depending on what composites they choose.
I know I should know more - I think there should be a continuing ed course in available in my area that would cover specifically this sort of thing. I'd be happy to pay to learn to be a more cost effective architect.
Another example - I know that if I start complicating a roof it's going to cost more - but now much more? Some complication might be worth it for aesthetics, but not if it's going to tip the project out of a customer's ability to pay.
"I'd be happy to pay to learn to be a more cost effective architect."
So you're saying that my upcoming "Estimating for Architects and Interior Designers" World Tour would be a big hit in your neck of the woods?
Bob
You coming to the NYC area? :-)
AIA/Pratt offers courses that are aimed at big business, I just want something focussed on the residential area. Despite my griping at the beginning of this thread, I'd like to see ways for architects and contractors to work better together. That's why I subscribe to Fine Homebuilding and periodically hang out here.
Coming to the NYC area? Isn't central NJ part of the "NYC area"? lol
Seriously, if you need any help, give me a shout, and I'll do what I can.
Bob
I think that it is a great idea for you to get good numbers for your clients budget. We are working now on a job where the architect was fired (He got paid everything owed him.) because the job was so far over budget. I was not privy to any discussions about budgets and have no first hand knowledge about what was said. I only know that the client is astonished at the cost of the project. Better numbers about the costs or, more likely, updating of those costs to reflect changes in the design could only have helped in this situation.
You should consult with the GC's you know. For a very modest fee they will probably be willing to share with you the costs of some of their recent projects, both in total square footage and in plumbing, electrical or other subs. I know I would for any local architect that I wanted to establish a good relationship with.
I think that you will find that square footage is a poor way to figure plumbing and electrical costs, especially if the project is an addition. The number of bathrooms or fixtures would be more accurate but even more relevant is the price of the fixtures. The same idea holds true for the electrical work.
If you work with a knowledgeable GC, you will be able to look at a range of work that will put you in the right ballpark. No one can expect more than that.
Do you have a good reciprocal relationship with a GC?
My suggestion would be to take him out to lunch and pick his brain.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com
are you talking about new construction or remodeling?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
new construction.
then I'll be of no help what so ever!
what I have seen for remodeling are price lists from the plumbers/electricians.
"costs per" .... try to make a list of common options ...
and ask your most loyal plumber and electrician ...
maybe they'll real-rough-ball park it for ya ...
then add ... 20-30-40%?
and ya might be safe.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa