I would like your view on self installed generator set up. I am not electrician but I have installed new circuits.
I’ve talked to 2 electricians so far. One was going to hook up the generator with the generator neutral grounded. He wanted cash and I had a feeling that I would not see him if there was a problem. Another electrician wanted $1200 to install 6 120v circuit/ not expandable transfer switch (Reliance manual) and cut a hole in the wall to connect generator with a 10 ft cord. He hung up when I would not commit to the job.
So hear me out, and I am going to listen even if I am called a fool. But please help.
The generator is honda 5000 watt 120/240v with 30 amp/4 prong outlet. At the store, battery charger will be connected and I will have this outlet into a floating neutral.
These are the distances: generator to power inlet box=20 ft, and power inlet box to transfer switch=55 ft.
GenTran manual transfer switch, prewired, 6 circuits (expandable to 10), model 3026. This switch is not wired for 240v circuit.
Gentran installation instruction is very clear.
Questions.
1. Cords on the market are 10 gauge wire. I would like to make one with 10/4 stranded, if money is saved. Parts will be outdoor rated. Are the pre-made cords better?
2. Hard wiring between the power inlet box to transfer switch. For 55 ft., should I use 8 gauge cable? Minimum required is 10/4 cable.
If I am going to install this, I am assuming one thing, which is that I will not have neutral and ground issues since now I am going with 240v generator. If I am again wrong on this, and there can be problems that only electrician will notice, please say it.
One thing, though, transfer switch needs 60A 240v breaker, and there is a room in the service box for it. Service box is not overloaded. It is Murray 200 amp box and diagram shows at least 4 120v tandem breakers can be used. I used one. Extra room also comes from 240v sauna heater that was removed. I did not switch breakers around between two bus bars to do this. The balance is about it was before.
Also, I’m not saying one thing and doing another. I did look for electrician in good faith. Hope you can understand my state of mind.
Thank you.
Replies
If you only made 2 calls and got two dubs, I wouldn't call that a good faith search. There must be some decent electricians around. The last thing you want to do is take instructions from a web forum. If you are installing a fixed generator, you may need a permit and in most places that will require a licenced electrician.
you are in over your head with a dangerous bedfellow!
It amazes me the number of people who will attempt electrical work under a cloak of uncertainty! Is there anythign potentialy more dangerous to person and property? If you have a fire are you willing to negate yoru homeowner's insurance?
You have so many issues to contend with here! You are making changes which effect your entire elecrical service. This is a whole order of magnitude above installing a spare circuit or two. For example, your panel will no longer be service entrance equipment and you must make changes to the bonding of the panel, isolating neutral bar etc. Shared neutral multi-wire circuits REQUIRE: that breakers be mounted on opposite phases so that the neutral isn't overloaded, that the neutral not be broken by a device and that thebreaker handles be tied for common trip (single pole breakers and different amperages allowed). Your transfer switch installation should very clearly dictate how to provide for the neutral - and local codes prevail which may be tougher or less restrictive thtan the current verison of the NEC depending upon your state's (NJ?) adoption. Not all states adopt the latest version of the NEC immediately upon publication. Also lcoation from the house, set back from property lines etc are additional factors you need to consider.
In X years when you go to sell the house are you going to disclose to the buyer that the generator and substatnial electrical work were performed with out a permit? Most states have mandatory property conditon disclosures - are you willing to commit fraud by falsifying the information on it?
Go to your friendly electrical supply wholesaler's counter (not a big box store) and ask them for a recommendation or two (they will usually be more comfortable giving more than one) of a licensed AND INSURED (lability and workman's comp) elctrician who would be willing to do this job or perhaps(if you are lucky) be willing to supervise you and and call for the final inspecion unde his license.
You are right there is boom in generator installation - and a lot of sub par installations. I see one in five that are faultless and some are down right dangerous.
Caveat emptor! Good luck.
For example, your panel will no longer be service entrance equipment and you must make changes to the bonding of the panel, isolating neutral bar etc.
Incorrect.
Shared neutral multi-wire circuits REQUIRE: that breakers be mounted on opposite phases so that the neutral isn't overloaded, that the neutral not be broken by a device and that thebreaker handles be tied for common trip (single pole breakers and different amperages allowed).
Correct for the most part. The requirement for tied handles is something of a "local option", I gather.
I'll stand by it
The original poster siad he was going to install a disconnect so:
Based on 2011 NEC: 445.18 "Generators must have one or more disconnecitng means that disconnects all power except where: --" (with two exceptions - neither of which apply in this case).
230.66 Sevice Equipment Listed as Suitable for Service Equipment "The service disconnecting means must be LISTED as suitable for use as service equipment." which means, among other things, the service disconnect is supplied with a main bonding jumper so a neutral-to-case conneciton can be made as required in 250.24(C) and 250.142(A).
250.142 (A) "the neutral conductor can be used as the circuit equipment grounding conductor for metal parts of - - (1) Service Equipment." (B) Load Side Equipment "- - the neutral conductor isn't permitted to serve as an equipment grounding conductor on the load side of service equipment."
What this means is once the required service diconnect means is installed on the supply side of the existing panel board it (the PB) is no longer the service disconnect and the neutral bar must be isolated, the grounding bar bonded and equipment grounding conductors must not terminate on the same terminal bar as the neutral conductor. (408.40). So I stand by my original statement as empirically correct.
Regarding handle ties on multi wire branch circuits with single pole breakers: 210.4 (B) Disconnecting Means "Each multiwire branch cirucit must have a means to simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors at the point wehre the branch circuit originates" Note: Inddividual siingle pole circuit breakers with andle ties idetnified for this purpose can be used for this application (240.15(B)(1)
This is a 2011NEC Code requirement so if you gather "local option" you'd be wrong as would your local inspector if she is inspecting under the 2011 Code requirements.
If you're "not sure" about
If you're "not sure" about the neutral/ground issues then you need an electrician.
There is another shared neutral issue that came up. One Amazon review says, "-new state inspection requires that- circuits that share a neutral be paired together and the handles on those breakers be tied together". He is electrician and he is saying he can no longer sell Gentran 3026 because this switch does not have enough space to hold both necessary circuits and accompanying circuits that share the neutral. He is frustrated because the UL company allows this switch and state rules don't.
People are apparently buying this and putting them in themselves and gentran company continues to make and sell them. In fact, as of this moment, these switches are back ordered for 2 months in some stores.
So what is going on?
I heard new york city did not allow romex for long time. Is the shared neutral issue in the similar area? I am going to put my big foot forward again, feel free to step on it. Generator puts out 240v max. 14 ga. wire I see are rated 600v. So what if there is a case where one neutral carries the input of 2 live wires? And there is a breaker between the service panel and the transfer switch.
Please enlighten me. My experience so far tells me that I am going to have to become an electrician to hire an electrician. Any fool can put the switch in, and plug in the generator, including the electricians.
You're talking about the insulation on the wire being rated for 600 volts, the wire itself (14ga) is nominally rated for 15 amps. Don't believe everything you read on Amazon. Also NY and Chicago are notorious for electrical rules that benefit union electricians and plumbers more than the public. The fact that the switches are still sold must mean that they are still legal to use in some jurisdictions anyway.
You don't have to worry about shared neutrals with the 240v generator.
The reason shared neutral circuits should have the breakers tied together is a safety issue in the event a person is working on a shared neutral circuit and shuts off only one breaker, there could be voltage on the neutral wire if it becomes unbonded to the ground bus and be a shock hazard. It has nothing to do with overheating.
I really think you should find a qualified electrician to install the switch. I would expect that the place where you bought it could offer references.
Really appreciate the concern shown by everyone on here. To close the subject, I decided I'll do the installation. I will list some reasons here.
1. There is generator boom going on here in northeast NJ. As when there was housing boom, it's push the cheapest product, hook up the set up, no inspection, cash and leave.
2. The neutral and grounding issues that I read over are based on possible shorts or neutral contacts going bad (going bad is the word used, not mine). In this case, and if I insist on no such problems in the future, an electrician is going to have to check on neutral contacts in the house, at minimum, clean all contacts and reinstall. This seems to me an over reaction. I plan to check, at least, for outlets that share different circuits (middle tab removed) and lable them about the shared neutral.
3. I will balance the load in the transfer switch the best I can with the meter on the swtich. In residential system, using only the necessary circuits (6 in my case), load balance does not seem to be a concern.
4. Splices made in the service panel. This is allowed at long as wires do not take up more than 75% of the space available in the panel that was left for such cases. My panel has about 6 inches of space under the bottom most breakers. Panel is standard depth.
5. I plan to put a on/off switch between the power inlet box and the transfer switch. This will be one of those outdoor boxes with long handle on the side. It is somewhat like the extra fuse for the AC condensers. My parents will open the contacts before initial start and refuel starts. Then they can close the contacts after the generator engine warms up. I think this way is better than turning off all breakers in the transfer switch to protect from initial surge that people talk about in forums. BTW, inlet box and this cut off are in the roofed porch, although screened. Generator will be outside. I have to think up some kind of roof over the generator, as well.
6. Northern tools has fuel transfer tank that make fueling a lot easier than pouring from a can. I also am thinking of some kind of leveraged fuel cap opener.
I would like to close this thread, but, haha, any suggestion or admonition will be accepted with thanks and gratitude.
Something like this might just trigger the 2012 Apocalypse.
Just kidding. :-}
Good luck.