This seems like one of those “six of one, half dozen of another” moments, so I thought i’d ask for a smarter view …
i’m upgrading a small garage to a small shop. just light power tools and small business stuff, nothing heavy. i had an electrician come in and install a subpanel and put in some basic lights and exterior outlets. he looked at the rest of my plans, wished me luck and said it was all DIY from here. then i did a lot of framing and added an attic and such.
now i want to add a some 20-amp 120v circuit for some basic hand tools and a chop saw. likely add 4 outlets along the back and side where i built a fold-up bench and tool wall.
here’s the question:
is it better to use one 20a GFCI breaker ($31) and four standard 20a outlets ($4×4=$16; for a total of $47)
or a standard 20a breaker ($5) and four 20a GFCI outlets ($11×4=44; for a total of $49)
its essentially a wash money wise, but i figure there’s a smarter way to do this and somebody out here would know.
Replies
You can also use the "feedthrough" feature of most (almost all) GFCI outlets to protect "downstream" outlets. Use a GFCI as the first outlet in a "chain" and connect the outgoing wire for the remaining outlets to the "load" side of the GFCI. This is usually by far the cheapest option.
However, even for your stated purposes I'd go ahead and install two (separately GFCI protected) circuits, and alternate outlets on the two circuits. Also, install a third circuit (no GFCI needed) strictly for lighting. This will prevent blowing all power (and blowing out the lights) if you cause an overload somehow. A lot easier to do now vs later.
Which of the GFCI options you use would depend partly on what would be most convenient in terms of resetting a blown GFCI. If your first thought would be to go to the panel then the GFCI breaker may make the most sense. If you'd be more inclined to check the outlet then the GFCI outlets (one per circuit or individual ones) might be more "obvious".
Do try to avoid getting two GFCIs "in series". This isn't unsafe but can cause confusion when trying to find and reset the blown unit.
For a DIYer in your situation, probably the GFCI breaker is harder to screw up. You just need to be sure to connect the white for the outgoing cable to the breaker's white terminal, vs connecting it to the neutral bus. And then connect the white wire from the breaker to the neutral bus. You can't easily get things backwards or accidentally leave an outlet unprotected.
happy?
The advantage of the 2nd option is that the GFCI is right there and if you trip it then you don't have a long trip to the panel to reset it.
But in a small garage that should not be LONG trip, but that is a consideration for places like bathrooms and kitchens you don't want to have to make trip to the basement.
But there is a 3rd option. The first receptacle in the line is a GFCI and there are LOAD terminals on them that come with tape over them. Remove the tape and wire that to the next receptacle in line.
That one GFCI will protect them all.
And BTW, where are you buying the receptacles. $4 is way to much.
Use the Spec grade. Last time I check about $1.73 in the 15 amp side wired versions. A few more sense for the backwired and a few more cents for 20 amps version, but you don't need those.
I'm thinking the back-wired receptacles are in the $3 range. Personally that's what I use if at all possible.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I just went through Lowes website.And it is confusing as there are so many variations and I think a couple of mis prices.But it appears that CR15's are $1.63 or $1.88BR15's (the backwire version) are $1.88 or $1.99 with one (BR15LA-SP-L, don't what taht is, but it is more than just color) for $3.00 They also have packages of 10 for $16.90The CR20's are all $2.37The BR20's are $2.94 and the odd ball BR20LA-SP-L or $3.00So there is much more of an up charge in the 20 amp than the 15 amp, but that really doesn't make much sense as in either both the 15's and the 20's the terminals, both side and backwired have to carry 20 amps.Then there is this real odd ball one.Item #: 61241 Model: BR20W-L $22.00I suspect a typo. And these are not the hospital or isolated ground, they are a completely different series.
Do people actually trip breakers and GFCIs? Maybe it's me but the last time I tripped a breaker I was arc welding. But other than that, I can't ever really remember tripping a breaker or GFCI.
Just curious. I recently read a justification for putting in subpanels and, other than huge houses where the main panel won't fit it all, the justification was to avoid that long trip to reset a tripped breaker. I filed it in the "useless product/service looking for an application" category, but I hear it a lot. Maybe I've just been lucky?
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
I can only think of a couple of times that I every tripped a GFCI other than testing it. One I was working on building a dock and the end of the extention cord fell into the lake.The other I was verify the polarity of some old 2 wire receptacles after I had replaced all of them. And since the I had just done the bathroom with all new wiring I plugged the exteension cord in their as the reference. And one time I use the neutral intest of the ground and the current draw through the neon tester was enough to trip it.PS, it was worth it. I found one whole circuit that had been miswired at a junction box in the basement.Likewise I have problem flipped breakers a 1000 times to work on a circuit for everytime I had to reset a tripped one.
Do people actually trip breakers and GFCIs?
Breakers, no, but for some strange reason, my cell phone charger trips GFCI's. This was discussed in a thread a while back and I'm not alone.
I have 1 non-GFCI outlet near my kitchen which I use to recharge my phone.
-Don
This might sound weird, but the charger is probably a buck type switching power supply that is backfeeding voltage from inductive "ringing" back into the GFCI. Typical design has a zener diode that clamps one side of the inductor to damp the ringing (weird thing to pop into my head, but I worked for an electronic firm during college about 20 years ago). The zener diode is probably toast.
If you're especially curious about it, you should write the manufacturer and see what they think about it (&see if they'll replace it free). If nothing else, their engineering dept. might be interested.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
WE don't want to get into that AGAIN.http://forums.prospero.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=53896.31
Deal.
I'm approaching that age where I can't remember if I turned off the facucet, but stuff from the dark ages pops into my head clear as day. Why I remember the time that . . . . ;-)
Edit: can't remember how to spell faucet either.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Edited 3/19/2006 9:52 pm ET by philarenewal
I skimmed that post. Very entertaining but my curiousity is getting the best of me. You know the difference between near field and far field emr. What do you do (or did)? Just curious.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
My degree is in electrical engineering, but to be honest electro magnetic therory was a very weak point. And when I took that course Edison was still trying to find material for the light bulb.So I have forgotten all of that.Most of my work has been in controls of some sort or another. Largely software for embedded process control for rual water distribution.But now I am semi-retired and doing some handyman work.
Yeah, I went to school with Edison. Nice guy, but you had to shout for him to hear you. Too bad he never hooked up with that guy Bell -- might have made something of himself.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Cool. I have a somewhat similar ancient history. Maybe started a little after Edison, but long before Gates/Jobs/Wozniac. In those days, PC meant a large heap of wire wrapped junk with an 8080 core connected to a surplus terminal. We all made them. When the 8085 came out for embedded controllers, it was heaven. ;-)
Then things changed a lot, fast. Last project I did was an rf temperature transponder using a PIC core. Full packet radio network; the complete circuit board was smaller than a double A battery and it was powered by two of those. Ah, the good old days. Then I went to law school and did that for a while and now I'm into construction. Much (much) prefer construction.
Still wonder what would have happend if I had answered the phone when Bell called. . . . It was such a new thing, nobody knew what to do with it when it rang. ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
I'd replace the charger if it's tripping the GFCI...
Aren't backwires not code approved anymore? At least it is true in Los Angeles.
You might be thinking of backSTAB outlets.
Backwired outlets have you stick the wire in the back & then tighten down a screw. Backstabbed outlets have a spring that holds it in when you stick it in - they are the inferior outlets.
You are correct that I am talking about the ones with the holes in the back that are hold the wires by spring tension and a small screwdriver poked into the small retangular hole next to the wire to release them. still think the packages I have save backWIRE rather than backSTAB, but I could be mistaken. The GFCI's have the screw clamp hole in the back that you describe.Kirk
I've tripped a breaker with an overloaded saw, eg.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?