I didn’t want to hijack or bog down the “tips and tricks of vinyl” thread so, I’ll start a new one.
Someone posted:
“There is a right way and a wrong way to do vinyl. But vinyl is not wrong. I kinda take it personally I guess.”
The way I see it, there is “good” and there is “good enough”. Some do not accept “good enough” or “it’ll do”, and some do. Some people find a house on a 1/8th acre in a new subdevelopment “fine” and some would consider it cruel and unusual punishment. It is not a matter of right or wrong, but a matter of preference.
I became interested in the publication “Fine Homebuilding” because I believed that it represented something better than “good enough”, else it would be titled “Common Homebuilding”. Nothing wrong with common, its how I like my nails, but not my home.
Some might call such an attitude “snobish” or “elitist” or something along those lines. But, you know, 50 or 100 or 200 years from now, when someone occupies my former home, I hope they say “wow, they just don’t build ’em like this anymore” or something like that. There is something awesome about a structure that has lasted 200 or 300 years and is still standing and inhabitable. Vinyl is just not in the same category.
Edited 7/30/2002 2:28:33 PM ET by Tim
Replies
I agree with most of your post.
But aren't "good" and "good enough" both kinda subjective?
Don't take life so seriously. It's not permanent.
Absolutely, subjective and context specific.
Really, vinyl has it's place, and beauty is subjective...just don't try to pedal it as fine homebulding, no matter how many articles you've had published...I'm thinking " Okay if you like that stuff Homebuilding" which I don't think I am subscribing to...but that hasn't stopped Mike and his opinions before...overbearing or what?
Nobody has REALLY explained why vinyl cannot be a part of 'fine' homebuilding. Is it the relative cost? Does FC count? I'd be curious to know what Andy Engel and his cohorts have to say about this, as I'm certain this question was raised when they considered doing the article and featuring the photo on the cover.
Ken Hill
Edited 7/30/2002 10:26:11 PM ET by Ken Hill
Ken,
Its up to you to decide. For me vinyl siding does not cover fine houses. Why? Personal preference. My opinion. There are many very useful and practical building materials out there. Some of them I choose not to use. I will not put vinyl flooring in my house and I will not put vinyl siding on my house.
Why is vinly siding so popular? Why do you think?
I think it is budget driven. Its easy to install, don't have to paint it, and you can pitch the house as low maintenance. Makes it an excellent product for PART of the market.
Andy addressed this somewhat in a reply to me in the other thread. They published the story as a source of useful information without regard to personal preference. I think the magazine does that well.
Does FC count? For me, FC is a far superior product to vinyl. Ask yourself this question: "If I could afford anything I wanted, would I use xxxxx on my house?" Tell me who out there would choose vinyl siding over anything else.
We debated running an article on vinyl siding, long and hard. None of us have it on our own houses, although I put it on each of the 15 or so houses that I built for others, and I put it on the house I built in NJ for my family before we moved to CT. There is a lot to be said for low maintanence.
What decided us is the fact that many, if not most, of our readers don't build the gorgeous homes we run. Not that they wouldn't like to or aren't able to, it's just that that market is small. We felt that whether or not they liked the stuff, lots of readers probably install it. Since our goal is to provide information that our readers can use, we decided to publish the vinyl siding article.
Also, we knew the article would engender a healthy discussion. While that's not our primary goal, it's a great side effect. The letters haven't started to roll in yet, but the smart money says that the next LTE column will be a lively one.
Andy Engel, The Accidental Moderator
Andy:
I enjoyed the article and I'm glad you ran it.
Tim:
To me "Fine" homebuilding is not about using ONLY the highest quality materials available. In my opinion it has more to do with how the materials were installed and used. Was the installation good or good enough? No, I wouldn't put vinyl on my home, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to learn a few tips and tricks to make sure that the work I do is better than just good enough.
I agree that vinyl doesn't belong on a million dollar home. But, just because that home has a price tag of a million doesn't make it a "Fine" home!
Mark
Mark,
I agree entirely that the craftmanship involved is every bit as important as the materials, in many cases, more so. I have seen many homes way out of my price range that weren't superior in craftsmanship or materials. The high price tag just made them expensive, not "fine".
Forrest,
I did not intend to demean anyone for using vinyl siding on their house because it is a practical and affordable option. If you took that way, my apologies.
Tell me, if you could afford something else, say pre-finished fiber cement or stucco, or quatersawn cedar or cedar shakes, or you fill in the blank..., would you still choose vinyl? If not, why not? What would you choose? If so, why would you choose vinyl over anything else?
Edited 7/31/2002 11:49:40 AM ET by Tim
I hope all the pompous snobs turning up their noses at vinyl siding are as consistently adamant while turning down drywall in favor of plaster,insist on slate roofs instead of shingles,turn down "relatively " unproven plywood and osb in favor of solid lumber,insist on quarry stone foundations instead of cheesy concrete blocks,use only wool carpeting and hardwood floors,and pave all walkways and drives with crushed oyster shells instead of asphalt.........
Jeff Buck is about the only one with the right idea on this( and since he so seldom has a right idea I would like to compliment him while I have the chance)
BTW,my house is sided with cedar shingles and claps with about a zillion coats of Pratt & Lambert oil base paint on it.
Some time ago an acquaintance of mine built a house. The budget was tight. He wanted a brick facade but couldn't afford it.
He had the slab poured with a brick ledge and sided in vinyl. He moved in to the house within 6 months. The money he started saving on rent went into improvements. The cheap cabinets were slowly replaced with solid wood custom units. The stairs were upgraded from a simple carpet covered affair to a custom built one done in cherry. About 7 years after he moved in he had the outside bricked.
The point I'm pushing is that if the basics, structure and foundation, are well built with some thought to the end result desired a house can be an evolutionary product. It grows, adapts to the needs and financial situation of its owner. A simple house can, given enough time, become a dream home. Vinyl siding can provide the option of an inexpensive intermediate solution that can get people of average means into the house where they can be saving money and building equity instead of paying rent. It might not be "Fine" now but it's not completed yet. Come back and see it when my great grandkids are living in it. "Fine" and affordable. I like that idea.
You are correct. Therefore, you must take over the lead. When I was young, I watched as my father spent his summer vacation(and as I came to realize OUR family vacation time) painting the house. Every year it was some part, doors, trim, body etc....
Sooooo ...if vinyl puts the family on vacation, and together, and the rest of the world condems it....then f-ck em'.
I did the steel thing, and bought a good airless, and take the crew and pay them for the week to paint it every 5 years(along with me). I've also been good for at least 6 weeks vacation for my wife and kids through the year. Nobody ever complained.
I would have to agree with Tim and also add that in MY opinion, just as he stated, that vinyl siding isn't used on fine homes, that's not to say that there aren't fine homes out there that are sidded with vinyl. I am building my own house this fall and I will use FC sidding, now that doesn't make my house fine its just that that is what I prefer, don't mind painting, never have. I don't think that it is being snobbish because I don't like vinyl sidding, just don't like the look of it, no more no less. And if it is being snobbish as some of you would insinuate than I am a freaking snob cause I don't like the stuff.
Doug
Keith,I couldn't agree with you more. I think Jeff Buck was also more interested in the quality of his families HOME than fixating on what somebody else thinks should be on the outside of his house.
BTW, we are just back from the outer banks,full of piss and vinegar and I am ready to write out another years worth of tuition checks.
Edited 8/1/2002 6:58:23 AM ET by SHAZLETT
We don't leave for Corolla until Aug. 22 for 2 weeks. Praying for NO HURRICANES. Should be quieter, most of the schools are back in by then, end of season sales for the ladies, but for some reason they never run closeout sales on beer.
"I hope all the pompous snobs turning up their noses at vinyl siding are as consistently adamant while turning down drywall in favor of plaster,insist on slate roofs instead of shingles,turn down relatively " unproven plywood and osb in favor of solid lumber,insist
on quarry stone foundations instead of cheesy concrete blocks,use only wool carpeting and hardwood floors,and pave all walkways and drives with crushed oyster shells instead of asphalt..."
No one, least of all me, has said that vinyl siding is not any good because its new. For that matter, I believe and said that vinyl siding is a practical and affordable product. See the previous post. Read numbers 6 and 7, too. Get some help if necessary.
Some of the materials you listed are superior to those that they replaced. Is vinyl superior to brick? To stucco? To the shingles and clapboards on your house? To fiber cement? Why don't you have vinyl on your house?
Why was the first sentence in the magazine article: "I cringed the first time a custom-home client asked for vinyl siding on a $400,000 house."? Why would Mike Guertin, the author, cringe about vinyl?
No one has made an argument that vinyl is a fine or a superior product. Many have told why they have it or use it, almost all because it is affordable. No disagreement here. Its affordable.
Look Tim, this is not a debate on the merrits of vinyl siding: it's about your attitude that the magazine shouldn't run articles on materials that you feel are inferior. While some will agree with you, there are others who believe that the "fine" is in doing it well and that not all homes we work on are brick with Marley roofs and book-matched long-leaf pine flooring. .
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Phill,
I'll refer you to the last post I made to you. In comments here and in the other thread on vinyl siding, never once did I criticize the magazine for running this article. I responded to Andy that the magazine does an excellent job of presenting information on contruction techniques and products, without regard to personal bias.
This IS a debate about the merits of vinyl siding and only about the merits of vinyl siding. At least that was the intent when I started the discussion. I do not criticize the magazine for running this or any other article. I criticize the product. I thought this would be an interesting discussion. I have learned that it tends to be a very emotional subject for some, to the point that simple english can not be understood.
You wrote: "I became interested in the publication "Fine Homebuilding" because I believed that it represented something better than "good enough", else it would be titled "Common Homebuilding"."
That's pretty plain English and plainly many people read it as being critical. Okay, you didn't mean it..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
"That's pretty plain English and plainly many people read it as being critical. Okay, you didn't mean it."
You've got a good point. The intention was to provide a start of the discussion from my point of view. There have been features in the past that differ from what I consider "fine". Lots of very good information.
I also took the tone of the article in question as "I don't like it, but if you have to install it, here's some ways to do it well". My take on it.
As Andy Engle stated, they seriously debated whether or not to run it. Given the popularity of vinyl siding, were the decision up to me, I would have run it.
So, Phill, as a Woodwright, and a homeowner, tell me what you think of vinyl siding.
Siding is siding Tim, this is brick country. Worked on a couple of Victorian repros, they have to be wood in our area (historical district), one in another part of town was vinyl - looked the same from a distance, but up close all the joints and seams looked pretty cheesy to me; but, most of the visitors to the site never seemed to notice. Still, the house was surrounded by Georgian and Federal style houses all in brick or EIFS and the sided house looked cheap by comparison.
On the other hand, cottage country starts a little north of here; and, even though some of these "cottages" are $1M+, siding is a logical material up there, low maintenence on your second home is a blessing, and people really don't look too close at the exteriors up there; so, you see a fair amount of vinyl siding..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
There will always be a gulf between those who believe that fine homebuilding is defined by the materials and those who believe it's defined by the craftsmanship..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
"There will always be a gulf between those who believe that fine homebuilding is defined by the materials and those who believe it's defined by the craftsmanship."
That gulf is almost as large as the one between those who can read and those who can read and understand.
Andy,
I enjoyed the article very much. My Son buys run down houses to renovate for rental, and vinyl makes it possible to give low income renters a nice looking place to live and can mean he has a positive cash flow vs negative if we are forced to use alternate materials. However, I have seen vinyl grossly misused by people in the same business. They use it to cover rot, termite damage and a host of other aflictions. We usually won't buy houses with vinyl siding unless we know who put it on for this reason. I don't have it on my house but I think properly applied it would be ok. And I think thats what FhB is about. It keeps readers abreast of all the options for homebuilding and shows us how to do it the right way. Keep up the good work.
or you could simply call it affordable.
Some houses deserve more.....some less. Vinyl can make a drastic change for the better on alot of existing homes. A $30K home doesn't require a $30K siding job!
Do I think it's out of place on a new const $500K home....yes, but.....am I not so biased against newer building products to see that like lotsa things in life......if has it's time and place.....yes.
Am I snobbish or elitist enough to judge what others choose to put on their house...or how to spend their money.....no.
If ya hate vinyl....and don't want it on your own home......fine, who the hell cares?
Does knowing and understanding the proper application of vinyl siding help put money into my pocket...sometime yes. Jeff
....now I'm just waiting for the idiot I read a while back on the Old Homes Journal site that said...in the same paragraph...the not only does vinyl leak so bad the house will rot away......since it's plastic....it also "suffocates" the house....I was kinda curious how the holes were big enough for water yet too small for air? Maybe one way valves?
and...to all the purists.....should all decks be cedar? Where's the same fuss over all them ugly PT decks? And Trex and the like is no better....plastic after all.....
She's exotic ,but not foreign, like an old Cadillac......she's a knockout!
"Some houses deserve more.....some less. Vinyl can
make a drastic change for the better on alot of existing
homes. A $30K home doesn't require a $30K siding job!"
Is vinyl siding more affordable than some paint and a little work? Only if you are incapable of doing the work.
First homes, starter homes, budget homes, tract homes, etc... are not fine homes, by my standards. They are what they are: budget. Low budget. A Geo is an excellent commuter car, 40+ mpg, low insurance, low maintenance, etc.., but it is no fine automobile.
All this is just opinions. Yours and mine are not the same. You would rather spend your extra money to go to Jamaica. I would rather not and spend it on my house. Different strokes.
I never said that vinyl siding was not acceptable in any installation, anywhere. It has it place as does sheet vinyl flooring. Its affordable, but it, too, is not what I would consider a fine material.
If I made my living siding houses, I would install lots of vinyl. No judgement. Just a paycheck. I design lots of HVAC systems that are bare bones, low budget. It pays the bills. No one will ever hold up a single zone rooftop unit over a convenience store as an example of fine engineering, but I do alot of them. That's the market.
Tim --
How about a new thread over in the energy & HVAC folder called "Fine HVAC"? I'd be interested in what you consider to be good and bad HVAC ideas.
-- J.S.
"I'd be interested in what you consider to be good and bad HVAC ideas."
Look around over there and you'll find plenty of what I consider to be good and bad HVAC ideas.
Tim,
I am remodeling my home myself because I can not afford to pay someone to do it. I subscribe to FHB and read it cover to cover. I plan to reside the house with vinyl and was thrilled to see the story this month on how to do it. I am using vinyl because it is what I can afford. By using vinyl on the outside I may be able to afford a few upgrades on the interior.
Forrest
I wish I was as eloquent as this guy . He Makes the point as far as I am concerened "I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
"Some might call such an attitude "snobish" or "elitist" or something along those lines."
Yup, that's what it is, bud.
Fine Homebuilding is just that, requardless of the material, be it mud, sticks, logs, stones, granite or (gasp!) vinyl siding!
Fine is the result of using a material well, to it's fullest potential. Of course that's not always been the case with vinyl, but we can aspire improve, can't we? Well, if we listen to the likes of guys like you, nope, no way, never...........
Fine Homebuilding has covered stories on houses made from beer bottles, tires, bales of straw and yes, plastic. It's not the material, it's the craft.
By the way, I'd love to go to Jamaca!
Tim,
Although I share your disdain for vinyl siding, I believe we both need to face facts. Sooner or later what we consider inferior materials become the norm. I doubt there were a hell of a lot of plasterers who rejoiced in 1/2" drywall. You can still find an old timer who wouldnt dream of using latex paints. And how dare they attempt to simulate "true divided lights".
The list goes on and on. If we continue to demand top dollar for our labor, costs are going to have to be cut somewhere. I`d enjoy nothing more than spending my days installing intricate hardwood mouldings throughout huge homes across the country...but I`ll be damned if $1.75/week is my asking fee.
Times change....deal with it! Once you do....swing by my place and help me cope!
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
my house is sided with cedar shingles and claps with about a zillion coats of Pratt & Lambert oil base paint on it.
Isn't this house now covered in plastic??!!
Stirring the Pot.
T
Do not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Actually Mr. T, my house is covered by about 80 years of linseed oil and lead.
"Although I share your disdain for vinyl siding, I believe we both need to face facts. Sooner or later what we consider inferior materials become the norm. I doubt there were a hell of a lot of plasterers who rejoiced in 1/2" drywall. You can still find an old timer who wouldnt dream of using latex paints. And how dare they attempt to simulate "true divided lights"."
JD,
Thats what I wanted to discuss: wether or not vinyl siding is an inferior product. I can see no benefit to have divided lights, so a single sealed, low-e coated, insulated window pane is arguably better. Same goes for latex paint and drywall. These products seem to be improvments. Is vinyl an improvement? Not seen a lot to convince me, yet.
Edited 8/1/2002 2:00:40 PM ET by Tim
Tim,
I don't have vinyl siding on my home because for 80 odd years people have taken the time to properly maintain the existing shingles and claps.Vinyl siding might well be an improvement to someone who didn't want to go the effort and expense of repainting every 8-10 years. The superiority of a material is largely determined by which factors are judged.Maintenance is a BIG factor for some people.
BTW, a lot of people might see a divided light window as superior based on aesthetics alone.The window you described would then be horrifically inferior
Wow...that was almost a compliment! Thanks...and right back at ya! Jeff She's exotic ,but not foreign, like an old Cadillac......she's a knockout!
"..a lot of people might see a divided light window as superior based on aesthetics alone.The window you described would then be horrifically inferior."
True, they might. I made the choice for myself, can justify it, and will argue the merits with anyone who cares to go there. If the only justifications I could come with is "its all I can afford, and I don't like to paint", my argument would be weak.
BTW, I would like to go to Jamaica, too. I made the choice to spend my money on my how now and vacations later.
I suppose it depends on what one considers to be improved.
Does the look of vinyl improve the product? Not IMHO. Does it outlast its predicessor? It should. Does it require less maintenance? Hell yes. Is it more economical? Yes, most definetly. ...And yet, I still dont like it.
"I can see no benefit to have divided lights, so a single sealed, low-e coated, insulated window pane is arguably better. Same goes for latex paint and drywall. These products seem to be improvments."
While I agree there is no benefit in divided lights when it comes to insulating value, I think most attempts at reproducing the look of the original fall well short. As for the drywall question, I`d prefer plaster walls over sheetrock any day. Sure "rock" is more economical to purchase and install, but if that is the criteria used to determine improved, than vinyl siding would be an improvement as well.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
"I suppose it depends on what one considers to be improved."
That is whole otjher can of worms, and as subjective as you can get. One way to look at it is: In 50 years is XXXXX going to make this structure more valuable, less valuable or be inconsequential? Regular maintenance is a fact of home ownership that cannot be avoided. To think otherwise is foolish.
Within my means and patience and skill, I try to make improvements to my house that will last 50 years or more and will, at least not detract from the overall value of my property. I plan to live in the house I now own for at least the next 40 years, maybe 50 if I make it. The improvements and modification are geared towards that end.
I would agree that fiber cement siding is an improvement over wood. I'm sure that is debabtable, as well. I would not agree that vinyl is an improvement. I predict that in 30 years most of the vinyl installed today will be in need of replacement or will have been replaced already. UV radiation will be the killer. Where I live, the mice would also chew it to pieces. My FC siding will be in need of its 3rd coat of paint.
I love plaster, but I cannot do plaster walls worth having. I was accused of being a "purist" by someone, which is not the case by any means. Old windows are great. I love them, too, but there is over 1000 square feet of glass on my house. Insualted, argon filled, low-e, is what I chose to use. In my opinion, a definite improvement in the overall value of the house as well as ####signifincant energy saver and improvement in the overall comfort of the house. Drywall falls in the middle. I think it will neither add nor detract.
First off I will say that I was very impressed with the article by Mike Guertin. In his introduction, he deals with the issue in a forthright manner. He would rather have diamonds, but sometime zirconium is what gets the job done. My impression of the quality of his work has been lifted up a notch. I remember an article a few issues back on a framing for a cantilevered bay where he describes a few quick and easy details that are in his "bag of architectural tricks". Not to say that he's a hack, but I thought he maybe went a little easy on the "Fine" aspect. A simple little this or that and your tract home will look like a million bucks. After reading this article, I fairly sure that I may have jumped to that conclusion too soon. Anyone who plans a foundation drop based on the exposure of the siding is OK in my book. Most carpenters would laugh at such level of detail, but as I'm sure Mike could tell you, if you have a good grasp on the issues at hand, this level of detail requires just a little more thought. This extra thought is part of what constitutes "Fine" homebuilding in my opinion. Many can get the job done. Of that population, slightly fewer can do a good job. Of those, even fewer can do a great job, these being the craftsmen. They can understand the ramifications of every decision in the layout stage and then have the skill to execute the plan so there ideas are realized. Good job Mike.
Now, I think we would all benefit from a consensus on exactly what is good/bad about vinyl. I think we all understand the benefits, namely cost and maintenance issues come into play. But what's bad? Is it obviously chinsy? Will it deteriorate quickly? Does it encourage rot? Does is house vermin? We have had much talk dealing with it's inherent problems without really defining the problems.
Let me suggest this alternative. From the beginning, plan your numbers to work out with the fixed course dimensions as much as possible. Use a high quality siding, installed with care (including the secondary weather barrier). Use wide casing and as little J channel as possible (as Mike would recommend). I think that a vinyl job done right could rival many others options fairly successfully.
I personally think that vinyl has one application that it is virtually superior to wood. Soffits and fascia. How many good plywood soffits do you see? In remodeling, I see many that are sagging with joints that are not close to being flush. Workmanship aside, I still think that this detail is a bad idea. Excluding beadboard soffits, I don't think there is a good reason to use wood soffit material, especially on a second story. I can understand not wanting to cover the entryway portico with vinyl, but other that that, who even notices? Mike Smith uses some great soffit material (Alcoa pro bead), which in my opinion rivals beadboard. Just my thoughts on the matter.Jon Blakemore
Vinyl soffits ? Roughly how many minutes does it take the average raccoon or squirel to break in when they're ready to nest in the Fall ?.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Good point Phill. Something I hadn't considered (after all, how often do you think of the soffit to keep rodents out). Exactly the issues I would like to see posted.Jon Blakemore
You said: "Roughly how many minutes does it take the average raccoon or squirel to break in when they're ready to nest in the Fall".
This issue and that of smaller rodents, is one of the reasons I beleive FC to be a better siding material that vinyl or wood.
Raccoon seem more likely to get in via the soffit, ripping off a roof vent, or chewing through an apron around a stack vent than pulling off the siding..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
To All,
Along the same line debate, what about roof trusses verses stick frame? I regularly see huge expensive homes with trusses where the ceilings are wavy, and the roof is wavy as well. In addition, there might be 4 or 5 common trusses in the middle and the rest are all different. It can get pretty complicated and difficult to brace the webs. I don't see the benefit to trusses on houses like that.
Rick
I guess that was me taking it personally. I agree, That is par for the course around here. Vinyl on an expensive home, maybe as uncommon as Red cedar bevel siding on a mobile home.
Finally, a use for architects, let them decide which goes where. lol
There are cheap brands of siding as well as expensive ones. That makes a difference. Actually , people do put expensive siding jobs on a 30k home. It may increase there value, and marketability by and hiding flaws. However, It should not be an excuse, or substitute, for poor workmanship.
"A job worth doing, is worth doing right" right?
I still say A siding job done well, can be sexy. It is all about the proportions.
I like what I read about using a wider profile J channel in this months FHB. It's in the details as they say.
"I was born in the country and razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
Edited 8/1/2002 7:09:05 PM ET by Edgar76b
Edited 8/1/2002 7:11:21 PM ET by Edgar76b
Edited 8/1/2002 7:45:39 PM ET by Edgar76b
"There are cheap brands of siding as well as expensive ones. That makes a difference."
This is something I wanted to ask the people who know: Is there (like every other product on the planet) a range of quality in vinyl siding, similar to that of, say, asphalt shingles? There is the 10 year, cheap versions, that look like tar paper with sand stuck to it and there is the 50 year laminated "architectural" versions.
I am not one of those Snobs. I would buy a house with asphalt siding and I would leave it there, until I had everything else in the house. Nailed down, and the way I wanted it. I don't care what anybody thinks. you don't find too many of those opportunities, In every community.
I am on the middle ground with snobery, and I end up gettting abused from bothsides. I tend to hold products to an aesthetic and quality standard. That strives to meet the standards of the most expensive Products. There is a lot of crap out there. I choose my products wisely. I would have used that asphalt product. It was a good idea. I expect high quality to be affordable. It's not always. That is the Par for the course issue, which keeps you from putting marvin windows in mobil homes.
I am also considered a snob. when I do certain jobs because, I like to go the extra yard. I especially go at it with my Dad. He would rather not spend the extra money. An example : He has always been able to fix things untill they are useless to any one. Mostly vehicles, doing the work himself, not spending the money. I have inherited a lot of that but, to a different degree. I will drive an old well designed, vehicle forever, I will replace everything eventually, sometimes even things that aren't broke just because it will be easier to do it now ,while it is apart. It will give me peace of mind. Instead of having to go back in later. Between the 2 of us we have it covered, but we usually disagree about somthing. Usually, "why do you want to spend that money now." He has a point.
We don't talk about that approach too much around here. Someone mentioned that this is FINE Home building , that is a point too.
However, I have noticed that many questions are about repairs too.
I guess the problem is many people consider their homes to be Fine Homes.
"I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
Edited 8/2/2002 10:11:21 AM ET by Edgar76b
Edited 8/2/2002 10:14:46 AM ET by Edgar76b
Edgar, this has nothing to do with the topic, you said about your Dad,
"He has always been able to fix things untill they are useless to any one. Mostly vehicles, doing the work himself, not spending the money."
My grandfather-in-law had the same affliction (which his son inherited). His name was Clyde. Many years ago my brother-in-law christened this type of fixing as "Clydinizing". The name has stuck ever since...
"I expect high quality to be affordable. It's not always."
There is a differenece between something that is affordable and something that is a good value. First cost versus lifetime cost. Some products give you both. I use flooring as an example. In my 100 year old house (my first) I ripped out the 10 year old sheet vinyl kitchen flooring that was worn through the surface. The 50 or 60 year old tile in the bathroom stayed. Obviously there was a difference in first cost, but was it 4 to 1? I doubt it.
"I will drive an old well designed, vehicle forever, I will replace
everything eventually, sometimes even things that aren't broke just because it will be easier to do it now ,while it is apart. It will give me peace of mind. Instead of having to go back in later."
My '71 Cheyene is on its second engine, that needs to be replaced, 2nd transmission, 4th set of brakes, 4th set of tires. I upgraded to the HEI when I swapped the engine, but used a budget rebuild. Bad decision. But I understand. I have learned through the mistakes I have made by going "budget".
We all have a point of view. I have gotten no less than 320,00 miles out of every vehicle I have ever owned. The only time I have ever sat on the side of the road , when I left my lights on and needed a jump. The only time I ever need a tow, when I blew the engine,in my 71 maverick. That is not to say I haven't fixed things on the side of the road, or limped home. I have. I also have some skills, I know, when I am over my head. Not too often. I'd like to have one of those new BMW coupes. I doubt that I will ever buy a brand new work truck.
As far as Affordable Quality goes, I think my point is that Marvin windows are high quality. I would expect them to last a long time. And because of it's reputation it has become a standard in fine home building.
On the other hand somthing that is less expensive than a marvin window, should not be of a lesser quality. And there are alot of good products out there. There are a lot of crap.
I blame the banks, and the Architects for housing that is not "Fine Homebuilding" It is there policies for loans to first time homeowners, and people with no equity, that builds boring and lower quality housing, with low quality materials.
You can be a perfectionist, do an excellent job . The cheap product will make you look like a hack.
To bad we can't all be millionaires. We could all build almost anything we wanted, within code.
Maybe we can get bonehead Bush to give us vouchers for marvin windows, if we live in a poor school district."I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
Wolverine has a great product . It is heavy, duty, thick. That gives it a more realistic appearence. It is excellent if you have a wall with a lot of imperfections , variations. it will ride over the low spots. We used it on a two story 4 section modular. the gable ends came together like a pencil point. I was able to shim it out just enough. You can't tell. It still looks good 12 years later. That was wolverine. I can't imaging it working with anything less.
Being thicker it is also harder to work with, more labor etc. I like there accessories.
Wolverine white J is and soffit is my standard with any siding.
Certainteed makes good stuff too. Their mainstreet collection is good .
Generally you want something with a rigid nail hem. that is what gives you the structure in appearence.
I heard some one say on another thread. "Soffit is not rated to be run over 8'." Anybody else heard that ? I would swear. I have done that before without any problems. Never read it. Although 8' is pretty wide for a porch roof maybe not.
"I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
Edited 8/2/2002 10:36:16 AM ET by Edgar76b
Edited 8/2/2002 10:38:06 AM ET by Edgar76b
Okay, I just came to breaktime to get some advice on residing our old house - I didn't expect to see 47 rants about vinyl and trucks with 300,00 + miles.
Our house has 3" beaded siding with 97 years of paint thats severely alligatoring and chipping off - scraping and sanding is not producing a good paintable surface. I like the look of fibercement siding but the cost of vinyl is appealing. What exactly is the cost difference? The hardiplank web site says 'less than brick but more than vinyl' but thats not very specific.
Can a weekend wood butcher put up fibercement?
Do you have any other suggestions for making our old house look like the "fine" house it is?
One of the recent issues of FHB had an excellent article about paint and paint failures. Find it, read it and see if you can diagnose your paint issues.
Unless you have a need to replace the siding I wouldn't do it. But, if you can install wood siding, you can probably install FC siding. The manufacturers provide detailed info on the installation of their product. If you decide to go that route, get that info and adhere to it. You will have to decide if you have enough in your bag of tools and skills to tackle the job.
I can't answer the question about the cost difference.
As far as the rest goes, keeping you fine house that way, I can only say: "Don't settle for anything less than the best you can find/buy/do." Of course, you will have to determine what that means for you and your house.
Thanks for the advice. I read the piece on paint and failures, the entire house just needs to have the 15 or so layers removed. I'd do it with a power remover if the siding didn't have a molded edge cut into it. I looked at another house today that had been sand blasted. The paint was off but the clapboards were so rough the detail on the siding was hard to make out, kind of like rough-sawn cedar. It should hold paint, though.
My wife is leaning towards maintenence free. Says she want more time with me...
"My wife is leaning towards maintenence free. Says she want more time with me..."
Consider yourself fortunate!
There is a lot to be said for "limited maintenance" (although I do not believe in the concept of "maintennace free") and much of it has been said here. There are also many folks who frequent Breaktime that could give you some ideas on the cost difference.
You have a few good options (maybe someone else knows of more). You can strip the paint with a chemical stripper, you can remove the paint mechanically (by hand scaping, or "power scrape" some, hand scrape the rest), you may try a heat gun/scraper or you can replace the siding with something. If I had siding worthy of the effort, I would want to do whatever was necessary to recondition it and keep it.
wait a minute here guys,
Plastic siding is fairly expensive if you start from the point of material costs.
I'm kinda dumb and I figure my time isn't worth anything when I am the ultimate benefactor. To me raw material costs are what matter. I can buy some nice wood if I avoid all those who are middle men.
If I go to a saw mill and buy wood direct it is a lot cheaper and then I can modify it in the manner I want to for little more than the cost of electricity.
With this thought process I can afford Black walnut, stone, and brick.
Now if you want instant and you want to have someone else do it, you should plan on expense.
So I guess my point is that how much ambition a person has determines "fine" more than the material....