Anyone else frustrated with your subs. It seems like the quality and lack of customer service provided by the subs is geting worse. I guess paying on time and providing straight forward quality jobs that should be profitable are not working. Anyone else feeling the same
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What specifically are the problems you are having?
I have been through 5 plumbers, 3 millwork guys and looking for my third tile guy. I don't mess with their pay or ask more than orginal scope without increasing pay. Where I am, there is more work than good subs and I guess I'll have to keep weeding them out. I have a sales background and I get frustrated when I don't feel like I am the customer.
What types of problems have you had with the plumbers, millwork, & tile guys?
Not showing up when scheduled, not completing the work in a satisfactory manor, etc?
as for not feeling like you are a customer, I can see how that could a problem, but I would suggest you need to be acting as a team, the customer service is part of that.
I must be lucky, the biggest problem I have with my subs is my plumber. The guy comes in, does a great job then disappears. I have to chase him down to pay him.
We just finished a bathroom last week and I have to say the Subs really did an awesome job for me. The HO could not have been happier.
BTW the only sub not paid yet? The plumber.
Cant find him.
Doesn't he have a mailing address?
http://grungefm.com
He lives two blocks from me! I cant pay him without a bill.
Wow.
I once had a plumber bill me 6 months after the work was performed. I thought he forgot and that I would never get a bill. Seems his accountant was "behind".
HAAAAAAA!
My bills go out on the spot or at most 1-2 days later and I do them all myself. Positive cash flow is the name of the game - profitability.
http://grungefm.com
I'd sign up to help you out but your profile has no information on where you are from.
http://grungefm.com
Do you want the short list or the 300 item one? :-)
Did you hear the one about the home owner who went with the extremely low ball GC, agreed to pay him extra for labor to install Hardiplank siding because it was highly a technical product requiring special tools, made sure the installation instructions were bilingual (English and Polish), and found the prinited instructions stuffed in the dumpster with Okocim empties, and wound up with a second story addition that only looks good when there is a blackout at night and the street lights are out?
Edited 11/13/2006 7:26 am ET by JoeArchitect
>>> Okocim empties
wazzat? polish beer?
It certainly isn't sealant.
JoeArchitect
Not all of us Polish subcontractors can only read polish, and have to drink beer on the job. We, as are other immigrants, are hardworking people, in search of the American dream.
I would have thought the polish jokes would have gone the way of Archie Bunker. To bad some people still believe that garbage.I hope you don't look at all nationalities that way.
Polish and Proud of it
Greg in Connecticut
The sad thing about this, it's all fact, not fiction. No, it's not a joke. That's unfortunate, because some people will stereotype ethnics in a negative way. My parents came to the US in the early 50's leaving Ukraine because of political persecution from the Communists. They came here, got whatever jobs they could, walked long distances in snow to save the bus fare, settled down, helped to contribute in building the Ukrainian community in Chicago in church, youth, and civil organizations. They even learned to read and speak English. I'll save you the rest of the immigration story of my family. The Ukrainian community in Chicago is next door one of the Polish communities. We've lived side by side, supported each other during each countries protests of Soviet oppression. We've preserved architecturally rich neighborhoods with hard work and cooperation.
I think you're barking up the wrong tree. My naration was all fact, nothing was embelished or dramatizated. It is very sad. The point was not about ethnics, as it was about disrespect to someone's home and disrespect to all other hardworking honest tradesmen.
I don't believe you state where you were born. You should be proud to be Polish. I'm proud that I'm an American, of Ukrainian descent.
JoeArchitect
I guess I'm a little touchy when I perceive people are making fun of my ancestry.Sorry for flying off the handle.
I try to judge people on what they do rather than ancestry.
Greg in Connecticut
Solidarnoscz! I hope I haven't misspelled this.
I try to judge people on what they do rather than ancestry.Greg in Connecticut<<<<<<<<<<Yeh but all youz guyz in Conneticut...we heard about you and those Taunton boyz...lol.
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
OT:is the Delta store still on Chicago and Oakley ?I'm looking for some salt and pepper shakers and some embroidered table runners.
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Tak!
GREAT....duze yakayu ........:).
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I guess you're familiar with the Uke Village.
my cousin Jimmy went to St. Hedwigs on Augusta ..along which FIVE of my aunts were crossing guards from Leavitt to Homan ..... I was raised on Potomac and Oakley......across from what was Tuley HS that was 1952 I stoodup at the first wedding in the new St Nicks....for my buddy Orest......who was also an electrician, and we did LOTS of sidejobs in the neighborhood. Martha.....my first sweetheart was Ukranian and I used to buy her little keepsakes from Delta .
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It's a small world isn't it? I grew up on Rockwell and Rice. I got baptized at St. Nick's, went there to grammar school, Uke School on Saturdays, have always been active in the Ukrainian Scouting Organization where I learned to cope with the cards dealt me in life. I lived in what we call "the Hood" until the end of junios year of high school (St. Ignatius). I still am active in the Ukrainian community. At this time I'm the architect of record (I was volunteered by my friends for pro bono work) for the renovation of ST. Nicholas Ukrainian Cathedral in celebration of its 100 years of existence. The neighborhood has changed a lot in your old neck of the woods with many teardowns and four story walkup condos. If you haven't been here lately, you may not recognize the area. Very gentrified. However, Delta is still there, though half the it use to be. I know a few Orests and even Marthas. I hope life has been good to you.
doing just fine.....but reminiscing is difficult at times especially when just about everything you recall is changed or gone....or just gettin old huh? may you enjoy success in your endeavor with the old church ! I may stop by before Christmas and swing thru Delta.ooops.....I just realized St. Hedwigs was off of Damen....sheesh
must have been St Helens on Oakleydopobacihnya.... pan Joea small world indeed
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That's right, St. Helen's (Oakley and Augusta) is just up the street from St. Nicks. I'ts also just down the street from St. Vlad's, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church on Cortez and Oakley. Did you ever hang out at Sak's (use to be called Steve's) on Oakley and Chicago?
Steve's? I might have stopped in a time or two I don't recall....
I remember Williams though, would buy t-shirts and jeans there.I had forgotten about St.Vlads
and the old CTA barn on Division.
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I never knew the bus barn on Division, as I usually only used the Chicago Ave and Western Ave buses. Williams if of course long gone as is the Gonella garage between Williams and Sak's (formetlly Steve's). The building where Williams used to be is still there with small offices and stores. The Gonella garage has been replaced with three four story walk up condo buildings. Across the street, where Rexall (on the NW corner) and some small shops were, a florist has moved in, two more four story condo buildings, the Ukrainian Modern Institure of Art, and the new four story Selfreliance Bank building. Burger King is still there. Do you remember Pepe's Hot Dogs on Oakley and Chicago?
pepes, no....I recall an car dealer on the NE corner...
BurgerKing??
the last time I was there was probably in '75condos......(
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There is a used car dealership still on SE corner of Western and Iowa, however, many moons ago, late 50's early 60's, there was a Rambler dealership on Chicago, just east of the Sinclair Station which was on the NE corner of Oakley and Chicago. The Burger King is on the site of the National Store (remember S&H green stamps).
S&H ....and Plaid stamps from A&P I think.....
maybe BurgerKing was there I just don't "see" it
in my mind.
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How about the electric buses?
those things were cool, quiet , and fast
I rode on
Chicago Ave
Western Ave
Pulaski Rd.
Grand Ave.
North Ave.I remember the trolley arms flying off all the time at Pulaski and North , and Grand at Homan under the tracksand the rails from the streetcars, never got to ride a Green Hornet though
I think we hijacked this thread enough huh?
Do you mind if I email you so we might continue ??.
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My biggest problem is with painters. I have more trouble with painters than all other trades put together. It seems I am trying a new one on every house. I may have a good one on a home we just started. He came highly recommended by a builder friend of mine, and has done a good job on the outside to date.
Most of my other subs are good.
My concrete sub and framer are the best I have, but I recently cleaned the Garage and Porch floors and found that the framer had lots of subfloor glue on the finished concrete floors. Otherwise, he is excellent.
What works best for cleaning subfloor glue off of concrete?
vigorous scraping.
A good concrete sub and framer are golden. Don't lose those subs, ever.
A good concrete sub and framer are golden. Don't lose those subs, ever
No kidding, there is hardly anything more expensive and important in a home.
what kind of finish is on the concrete, textured or smooth?
hopefully it's not pre-colored or already stained?
what kind of finish is on the concrete, textured or smooth?
broom finished natural concrete
try a wire brush and some laq thinner...
I'd be tempted to try a wire brush in a grinder and no thinner but that may effect the texture and color of the concrete. If you try it, I'd make sure to keep the wire brush rotating in the same direction of the brush marks
Yea - I went to talk to one of the plumbers about where he had placed the hose bibs on a house they were plumbing. They had put them like 2" from the corner of the house meaning that the hose bib would be partially on the corner board/post. I also told him that it was going to be extremely hard to fire stop around some of his pipes the way he had done it. While I talked to the plumber he was slopping purple primer and glue on the garage floor as he was installing DWV in the garage ceiling. Pissed the $%#$ out of me but I didn't say anything because I didn't want to hit him with too many complaints at the same time. When he and the crew next door finished there was pieces of pipe, empty glue cans, and piles of those big wood borings laying around the house. The electricians cleaned it up in 1 house... In the other house they cut through the bottom chord of a open web floor truss. He says it should be OK because there is a parallel wall below the truss but I don't think so since the wall is not a bearing wall. I'm gonna get another 1 or 2 plumbing bids.... The thing is that I'm stuck with this plumber for at least 3 months until they finish the houses they have started.
Dang Matt.... I feel your pain. That sort of stuff makes me crazy and I'm just a sub myself!
I, however, would look at it a bit differently. You're not stuck with them for three months. They are stuck with you for three months! One word....... BACKCHARGE. Guys like that only care about one thing.... the money. So hit 'em where it hurts. Take a digital picture of the truss, for instance. And have your framer fix it and write up a repair bill. Take it right out of the plumber's check and attach a copy of the framer's invoice to the check. Same thing with the slab and the cleaning bill. View Image
My first step is to take a pic of the cut truss and send it to the truss engineer. See what he thinks. Basically, I want to have my guns loaded when the BI shows up (after HVAC & Electrical rough-ins) I'm not only thinking back charge but a "management fee". :-)
And... you will love this - these guys seem to think it is the framer's responsibility to set the tubs when the crane is on site. I told the plumber that I was concerned about the tubs getting damaged, (as has happened in the past) and his response - back charge the framer - that will teach 'em! My framer's are actually good guys and they will put the tubs in the upstairs of the house, but as far as I'm concerned they are just doing it as a favor. Further, any material that any sub supplies belongs to him until he fully installs it.
Getting back on track to the thread, to be fair though, I also have to say that I have a great concrete guy and painter and a really good flooring sub.
Matt
I frame for a living and anytime I set trusses, I set the plumbers tubs. I find it easier to set them, then repair the walls that get screwed up after they put them back together. I know some framers won't boom them, just leave them on the ground.I've got better things to do than bust #alls.
I try to help other guys when I can, and hope someone can return a favor some day.I'll give any new sub I come in contact with my full cooperation. Your plumbers after that first house, I wouldn't bother with.
Greg in Connecticut
A bit past the framing I'd bet the thing that drives our subs crazy is being scheduled on top of each other.
I'm terrible at it, at first it was inexperience, but now getting as many subs together at once solves a lot of problems.
If only for half a day wonderful things happen when the hvac, electrican and plumber are all working at the same time. Between themselves they majically come up with great solutions to iron out code requirements and overlaping/conflicting layouts.
Once our subs have worked together a few times they seem to enjoy the company, but someone new to the fold sure gets cranky they don't have the whole house to themselves. :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
My biggest problem is with painters<<<<<<<<<Oh god...and Shaggy hasn't seen that yet...I'll have to direct brotha Shag to this thread...can he ever talk about painter issues...although I don't wanna get him going.
Duck and cover if he joins in on that one!!
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Shag can talk all he wants, but my statements are true from experience. I have truly had more problems with painters thatn all other subs put together.
Painters do have it rough sometimes, seems they are often called on to fix problems created by others. I try to understand and give them extra money, but many of their problems are self generated and lack of good crew management. At one time I had 20 employees and we did lots ot the work including painting. It was hard to find any punch items, as we did our own "fine toothed comb" inspection and corrections.
I consider it strange and suspect when painters ask me early in the game to make a punch list and mark errors with blue tape (a commn practise here in TX). They already know of many of the problems, perhaps they are trying to see what they can get away with or something. I tell them "You are the painter, and should know when you are 98.75% finished. My HO and I will make a punch list when the errors are not so obvious."
I remember when I was framing and had two crews. When we framed townhomes or a couple of homes, and had the crews split, my other crew leader and I would have a contest to see who would have the least amount of punch items when inspected. We dotted our own "I"s and crossed our own "T"s. Punch out was very minimal and the palce was clean as a whistle, with residual lumber stacked neatly. Why should I have to tell the painter to clean the paint off the Garage or Porch floors?
I hear ya about painters and punch items... As I said before I am very happy with my painters. I guess it's a relative thing though. I still have the punch item problem you describe. Let's say the electrician puts a small extra hole in the closet ceiling looking for the wire for the florescent light. Then the painters come through and do their final - they pretty much go over every square foot of painted area (including the ceilings), and even if they don't repaint everything they check everything. You would think they would say to me - hey - get your drywall guy over ASAP to fix that hole so we can finish this house! But no - they just let it go and see if anyone notices. Another example would be a small piece of missing (to be painted) shoe mold behind a toilet or door. Do they tell somebody? No. Really though, it doesn't bother me that much, I just gotta be extra sharp on my walk-throughs.
I would feel sorry for any builder who ever built a house for me - I can make a 20 item punch list in 5 minutes. The only thing that slows me down is my writing speed... And I'll find something at almost any stage of construction too - any trade... That's the beauty of keeping a sub around though - after you have a crew fix the same type of item 2 or 3 times, a light comes on for even a dumb guy... And they always see me walking around with my note pad....
The only thing that slows me down is my writing speed..
I have started using my new Nextel I580. It has a voice recorder, and I can talk fast when necessary. I speak out a punch list, take it back to the office and put the list on a spread sheet, with names and numbers of those responsible and print copies for my super.
I have tried to use a simple voice recorder in the past, but lose it or get tired of keeping up with it. The intergrated phone / voice recorder works for me.
We are similar, some of my subs call me picky. I says thanks and tell them that is why they are working........ my attention to detail.
I called my electrcian monday to say I needed X "sometime in the next week"
They showed up tuesday.
Fate must be setting me up...
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I'm a sub.... but I hear you. It goes both ways, believe it or not. There are good GC's to work for and there are bad GC's to work for. I can probably give you a laundry list of complaints about GC's that's as long as the one you could give about subs. But that probably won't get us anywhere, now will it?
This is my fourth year of being in business for myself. The first year, I think every job was for a new GC. The second year maybe 25% repeat customers and 75% new. Maybe 50/50 last year. It takes awhile, but I'm finding the guys that I like to work for and that like having me work for them. It's a two way street..... the "R" word..... relationships. And that takes time.
My suggestion to you is that you do not settle for "the devil you know". Keep searching for the guys that reflect the sort of jobs you want to put together out there and don't settle for less. Good subs are out there and good GC's are out there. Sometimes it's hard to get in good with a quality GC because he's already got a framer. And sometimes it's hard to get in good with a quality framer because he's already got worked lined up. Gotta be patient and don't settle for less than you want.
BTW, fill out your profile when you get a second. You never know..... we (or anyone else here) could be neighbors. You just might find exactly what you're looking for right here. Never know. I've formed several good business relationships right here on BT without ever trying to solicit work.
Edited 11/8/2006 2:03 pm ET by dieselpig
>> I can probably give you a laundry list of complaints about GC's that's as long as the one you could give about subs. But that probably won't get us anywhere, now will it? I don't know about that - I think I'd like to know what bugs subs about GC's. Constructively, of course! Maybe a new thread so as not to hi-jack.
I'll list a few things that can really make my job more difficult than it has to be.... most of which can cost me time/money which is my biggest pet peeve. ;) These are in no particular order of importance and generally they are about being put in the a position where I have to do part of the GC's job in order to stay on my time/money schedule.
1. Missing or late material deliveries
2. Short stocking the lumber take-off
3. Not accepting or denying proposals in a timely manner
4. Incomplete sets of plans which require an inordinate amount of field design, verification, or re-work.
5. Nickle/dime hammering down the bid price after it is accepted.
6. Inability to make timely decisions which hold up progress or create situations for re-work
7. Scheduling the next set of subs with too much overlap (I'm a framer)
8. Hiring highly unprofessional subs that I have to share the site with
9. Too cheap to have a Porta-john on site.
10. Not being ready on time.... then expecting me to drop everything when they are finally ready.
11. Incomplete take-offs which I have to finish in order to get the materials I need in time to stay on schedule.
12. Sending homeowners to talk to me directy about C/O's or other concerns.
There's more.... but I don't want to tick off half the board! :) Hey, I'm not perfect either and I'd never suggest that I am. I'm just listing them because you asked! :)View Image
Brian,If you ever want to work in VA, come on down and I will promise to comply with your list.I just had an issue today with an electrical sub. He quoted a job about a month ago, and today he finished the rough in. He called to tell me that the price was 70% higher than what he had quoted. He didn't realize that we were adding on to the foyer of the home (5x11) and that the basement was finished.When he gave me the number, he said that he had already looked at the plans at the clients home (why he was there is a long story). I repeatedly asked him if he needed to see any info on the job, scope of work, etc. He assured me that it would be no problem. I guess he was wrong.My lesson was that if someone is going to quote from the plans, I had better make sure that he gets the real plans from me AND understands what is going on. Another day, another lesson...
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
And Jon if I were ever looking for work in the Virginia area, you'd be my first phone call. I'd be mortified if I were your electrician. I wouldn't even bother asking for more money as it was so clearly my own error. That'd just be my penalty for not doing my homework.
In the very least he should have informed you of the error before he started the rough-in....not when he was finished. That's just lousy.View Image
We pay our subs what they ask when they ask.
That said, they come to me, after they give me a #, and want more money, they have one hell of a fight ahead of them.
They call and say hey, I need more money because of xyz that's one thing, so long as it is done in advance of the work. To complete the work and go after 70% more cash is a problem in my book.
But fortunetly we have great relationships with all of our subs, the drywaller needs some work but he's a good guy, other then that all is well.
How about not paying your bill in a timely manner?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Like I said.... that list sure ain't everything!
Payment is big with me. If I have an established relationship with the GC, I often won't even draw a check until the job is finished. But the check better be ready when I'm done. The jobs get built without whining or complaining so I expect to get paid without having to hear an Oscar award winning performance in the drama category. Shut up and pay up sucka. :)View Image
That is a great list!
I deal with most of that crap daily here. I cannot believe how incapable the GC's in my area are. They just don't have a clue.
My favorite is getting a call begging me to start tommorrow, if I do they dump the job on me. They stop answering their phone if a decision needs to be made. And the customers are calling me at home. Burns my azz dude.
Customers calling you at home? That's ugly dude. Who gave them your number? If it were the GC, I'd throw him right under the bus in a New York minute. I generally don't give out my cell phone number even to GC's until we're signed and ready to go and never to homeowners. I've got a business line with answering service for that stuff and that's the number on the shirts, the truck, the forklift, the business cards, etc.
A man's gotta have some peace, ya know? ;)
View Image
The GC's have my cell number and thats the number he also gives the customer.
They call and ask me "have you seen Tim? We haven't seen or talked to him since you started." They start to get frustrated with the GC's lack of communication and I end up putting out the fires until it's time for a final check.
I charge a very high rate when this crap happens, The GC's have used me long enough to know, dump a job on me and make me be the GC without seeing the original contract and you'll be charged for it.
Brian
I use to have the same problems with short lumber loads,late lumber loads, and incomplete takeoffs.I would always get the same run around from the GCs, always the lumber yards fault.
Nobody offered to pay my guys for sitting around.The gcs I work with now let me figure what I need, let me order and schedule delivery as I need it.
When a delivery is late, wrong quanities, or wrong material, there is only one guy to blame.Usually windows, doors, and trusses(if needed) are ordered ahead, I just call to release.
My biggest problem with GCs is not paying according to schedule.I hate chasing money.
Greg in Connecticut
Good list Brian - I read it twice to make sure I got it all.
Thanks for the replies. I now know how to wire a 3-way as well. I appreciated Dieselpigs replies. Getting comfortable with how someone operates there business and how to manage around it is something I must keep working on. The GC I worked for had total control of his subs and I guess that is more of an earned thing.