In a nut-shell:
Been building new house for last three years.
Nearing end of project.
Let wife handle landscaping, ie. contractor hiring, design, coordination and billing.
Wife dropped ball, No fault of her own, she’s not a contractor like myself.
Landscaper ran amuck, was given an inch… took a mile…
I involved myself too late in the game, started reviewing invoices.
my pants.
Re-grouped, started analyzing invoices.
Findings:
Landscraper changed her rates in the middle of the game (no notification), she increased her hourly rate by $10 / hr.
Found she was billing four different rates for the same general labor.
Mystery employees showing up on billings.
Mark-ups on product and subcontractors that surpass 50% (I surmise)
No clarification or disclosure of product , labor, and subcontractor mark-ups.
Duplicate entries for labor on the same day.
Erroneous and conflicting dates, labor allocation and product purchases.
Accounting anomalies:
Three different invoice formats (using QuickBooks) We received seven invoices over the course of the project .
Three different plant list formats.
Some categories being taxed in an earlier invoice wile not taxed in a later invoices.
Composite tallies of materials and labor costs which surpass given estimates by (in some cases more than 200%)
The atrocities continue, I’m 50% through my assessment, I know I’ve got her by the balls in a few cases, and I’m convinced her initial breach of faith (raising her rates) has opened her up to full scrutiny.
As I strategize my assault in the next few days, it would be appreciated to hear your comments, insight, words of wisdom, torcher techniques etc.
And, “No wife bashing”, my wife did the best she could, (out of her league),
But I will accept “Bitch bashing” directed towards the landscraper.
thanks
Phil
Edited 10/2/2005 11:29 pm ET by PHILLK
Replies
In my state (Connecticut), and in many others, before any work is started there must be a signed written contract spelling out the work to be done and the prices to be charged.
If no agreement A) no legal right to be paid; and B) criminal offense (OK a minor one).
All changes to the original contract must be in writing signed by both parties and be in effect before any of the changed work/prices are effective. If no change work orders, no legal right to payment and, again, a criminal offense.
In both cases, the contractor can be held liable to an award in favor of the HO for violation of the state's Unfair Trade Practices Act. At the very least, means a day in court for her and maybe some hefty attorney fees.
You have her over a barrel if any of this is missing. And depending on how aggressive your Consumer Protection Agency is, or how politically motivated your Attorney General is, you may have her quaking in her boots. Bet she paid all the withholding taxes in all those workers. And bet they're all square with the Immigration Dept, or whatever name is has these days.
I'd say you should have plenty to negotiate with.
Taunton wont...
well, phill.... is this sloppy bookeeping ? or fraud ?
is she new to running her own business ? why did your wife hire her? good references ?
i'd approach it from the viewpoint of the golden rule and i'm not being cynical
was there some kind of initial estimate ?
how about you sit down with her, and keep the aggression you are displaying here out of your negotiation....
ask her for an accounting... since there are descrepencies.. you want original sources.. was this T&M ?... or Contract with Change Orders ?
i would drop the internal reference to "bitch" , either she's a crook... or she's a bad businesswoman
BTW... what about the work ... are you happy ? is your wife happy ?
like you said... you are late to the action... why did you give up this part of the contract for your house ? landscaping is notorious for being budget busters.. i never surrender the landscaping without a heart-to-heart sit-down with my customers... since most of what is being done can be done fora lot less money by my excavator
Whoa there bucko.There is something stinky about your post and it isn't the landscaper.
First off its rather suspicious and totally uncalled for that you want us not to critize your wife but you want us to call the landscaper a "bitch". What rock did you crawl out from under?
You admit you weren't involved but now seem able to assess that there are "mystery employes" and "Accounting anomalies". You "surmise" that there is fraud and over billing yet you yourself admit you are only 50% done in assessing the bills?
Sounds to me like you and your wife didn't get involved enough to understand the process, what was to be done and how much it was going to cost. Who decided what needed to be done? Were there any changes, add ons, enlargements to the plan. And at this stage how would you even know if there was or there wasn't. Your totally off base to assume the landscaper took advantage of you when you yourself admit that you didn't and you still don't really know what went on.
What work was authorized in the beginning? What changes were authorized by yourself or your wife? Are there changes that were specifically not ordered? If the labor rate changed, was there a signed agreement as to what it was supposed to be? OK, no wife bashing, but if the original contract was extremely loose, that sets you up for this kind of trouble.
You should negotiate. Calmly. After you have rationally analyzed the whole mess. Make a realistic payment to cover the work that was done and make it clear that anything more than that will have to be told to the judge.
Did I mention "calmly"? Yelling rarely settles legal problems and threats can put you in the hotseat. Your situation is unlikely to work out to your total satisfaction, but projects without oversight generally do not.
Thanks for the comments (most anyway)!
First I'd like to say... My intent, after analyzing the invoices, formatting my questions, laying out my grievances and talking with my attorney, is to invite her to a "civil" sit-down chat. Calm and collected is the M.O.
Having many years experience in the construction industry, involvement ranging from initial client contacts, contracts, preliminary design work, full construction documents and specifications, permit processing, mitigating planning issues, preliminary budgeting, full and firm estimate productions,
subcontractor procurement and shopping, site survey, site layout, subcontractor layout, project management, site supervisor, estimate or bid tracking and job progress/profit analysis. Construction experience and endeavors from site clearing, site analysis and topographies, excavation, foundations, underground utilities, framing, roofing, ext. doors and windows,
electrical, plumbing, low-voltage systems, drywall, paint, mill packs, interior trim and architectural specialties, custom kitchen cabinetry (construction and installations) and other media, storage and specialty built-ins, furniture and other commissioned items. Final billings, issue resolutions and issue arbitration, employee training, discipline, hiring and firing.
Having this experience and this exposure allowed me for the last 3 years
to design, contract ,construct and renovate a new 3600 s.f home from a 1600 s.f.,1919 farm house.
I have employed all of my favorite "A" TEAM subcontractors. Because of my past fair and good working relationships with them. They offered a working relationship on my project that (for me) reduced their mark-ups or they placed none at all. Cash deals or reduced rates. Time and material contracts that allowed my involvement and intervention to decrease costs. Through this process we were really able to stretch the dollar. Saved a lot but still went over budget. Oh well! Still this is something only people like us in this industry can pull-off.
Their reward... a fare chunk of change in their pockets, a wonderful working environment, clarity and understanding of the full scope of their work and a state of the art showcase home for which they are welcome to send their costumers to see, when their clients arrive they are usually greeted by myself, who will take them on the "cooks tour" of the place, as I praise my subs. work, quality and professionalism. Later I'll get a call from my sub saying "thanks!' and "sold another one!"
This is a tight industry, loyalties and relationships don't come easy, references go a long way, especially if you live in a small community like I do, and especially if your referrals come from the home-owner/ architect/ contractor/ builder rolled up in one!
So, from this point on, I will no longer refer to the landscaper as "bitch" but rather " She who has pooped in her own dog dish" ...Ok Bucko!
Yes, "She who has pooped in her own dog dish" is in for a rude awakening.
I will disclose further some of the #### "She who has pooped in her own dog dish" has pulled.
But now I must go to work. Till laterThanksPhil
well, that's cool.... course.... you didn't say a lot of that first time around... and you didn't , and still haven't given us reason to think of your landscaper as a "she who has pooped in her own dog dish" person..
i see lot's of sloppy bookeeping... i see fraud... i've been expert witness on both sides...
i might have a reading disability problem... but where did you make your case for fraud ? it sounds more like the usual dumb open-ended situation we've all been in at one time or another...
go back and read your first post as if you were representing her instead of yourself
and.... you may be absolutely right... i just don't see thta you've proven your case to this pointMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Dude, you either have a contract or not.
If you have one, and it is a fixed fee bid, then that is the amount you pay, unless there are change orders. Many states have different opinions regarding oral change orders. Someone who sits back and lets the contractor perform a significant change will likely be hosed, for the value of the work performed, not necessarily the amount of the invoice.
If you don't have one, and this is Time and Materials, well then, that is a horse of a different color, and you and your wife will have to bear a fair amount of responsibility.
I would approach this as a complete and utter failure of supervision on your part, e.g., to delegate this matter to a friggin wife, when you should have been doing it; and perhaps miscommunication and bookkeeping issues between the landscaper and your wife.
I'd sit down with the three of you and figure out where you stand. You may not like the result, because I think you are somewhat responsible.
Regards,
Scooter
"I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
You have been granted exactly what you requested, which was advice from readers.
All advice given has been excellent.
Your reception of all advice has been selective.
I appreciate all comments, advice and insights. My apologies if my responses have been selective. I too apologies to the clarity of my issues. Please allow me to try again.Yes I take ultimate responsibility in this matter, I dropped the ball in the handling of this subcontractor. I should have been involved from the start to finish as intensely as I have been with my other subs.No, we didn't have a signed contract, we had estimates and proposals but nothing firm. Bad move!Yes I allowed my wife to handle this aspect of our project, somethings you have to do to keep the peace, I had control over everything else, more or less.Now to salvage what I can.First, through review of all invoices, I noted that her rates had increased during the middle of the project with no written or verbal disclosure.
I will request that we be reimbursed for the added increase above the original agreed rate.Second, in lieu of the first fact, I feel there has been a breach of trust and a question of her honesty and integrity arises. I will request that ALL past subcontractor invoices and material invoices be supplied. Thus to verify that there was no undisclosed increases to her mark-ups. If this is the case I will request that we be reimbursed.Third, I will point out issues regarding her bookkeeping practices. These are as follows: duplicate entries of services and hours on the same day, explanation as to why there are extra persons being billed out on days when her entire crew was here (the'res only four in her crew, including herself, why are we being billed for five persons?) Taxing hourly services in past billings while not taxing them in preceding billings. The'res a bunch more, I request that these issues be addressed, clarified and if so, that we be reimbursed for the errors.The following had been items regarding billing, then there are issues of product quality, issues of not following directions or scope of project. While one could say "things got lost in the translation" or "things were misinterpreted" there were still times when she went off in her own direction without consultation costing us more money or ultimately, not providing what we requested.So for now I hope this clarifies my position and proposed course of action."pooping in one's dog dish" I was referring to the potential exposure and references that she may have gained. My references and opinions, at this time, are not going to send work her way . But that could change depending on her actions.Thanks againPhil
at this point you have missed this one 63977.8 (it is marked 'unread')
I agree, good advice right down the line - keep your cool, work thru it, be prepared to be generous as a penalty for not lining all the ducks up to start with - looks like it's in both your interests not to get into a pissing match -
and then when it's done, let it be done - you won't be recommending her, but do not denigrate her either - something along the lines of 'our communication was not the best...' and leave it there -
my 2c
"there's enough for everyone"
PHILLK has apparently not read posts 2,3,4,5,8 and 9, but he has read 11 and authored 7 and 12. What gives?
I have read all posts, my screen too indicates that I have not read what you state. I dont know what gives.
hey, phill ... welcome to the board.. now that you know you're dealing with a bunch of PC carps in touch with their inner selves.. i'm sure you'll fit right in...
sure is fun , huh ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
have not read
Which is odd. My olny guess would be if a person had multiple sessions of BT open at the same time--I've seen some atypical behavior in that situation (like different lists of "to me" stuff, completely different, that is).
As far as I've seen, once you open a thread which contains replies to you, the whole thread is "read," whether you have actually seen all of the posts or not. (The same thing happens in opening a thread to read, even if you don't read all the posts, next session will show ("xxx new of yyy").
Now, back to the subject at hand, I'm guessing that the primary problem the landscaper has is sloppy book keeping. The fact that you are getting detailed enough information to show who worked where what day is a "clue" of sorts to me. Unless someone negotiates specifically, my invoices tend to be "You Owe: $nnnn, please pay soonest or else." My records might show that M was here for x hours, D was there for y hours--if you lashed up a t & m with me, that would wind up being a line of "Labor: XX hours at #nn = $mmm."
It's knid of bad that during the original post, that my first thought was give us her email so we can get some of G Haye's s/w off her way.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
my sense is that as a customer your a contractors worst nightmare."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
yep, really feeling that love and joy with every word you send! Must be rapture! or rupture?
OK, you had "estimates and proposals but nothing firm."
How many estimates? How many proposals?
Can you please give us some idea of the size and scope of this fiasco? Was it all just planting? Or was there some, or a lot, of hardscape involved?
With all of your experience, you must certainly know that it is easy to drop on landscaping what you might pay for your excavation, foundation, drainage, driveway, finish grading, etc., all combined. Is this the way you saw the project?
How did the initial "estimates" and "proposals" differ from what was finally agreed upon as the scope of work?
Be real. I'm just suggesting that you might have some responsibility here. How in the world could you be so detail oriented and not know a thing that was going on here? You "let" your wife handle it to "keep the peace". I'll give that marriage 10 years tops."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
Over the years I've gotten to know many people & businessmen. Some were organized some were not.
On one occasion I paid a contractor to roof a house and several months later when I did my tax return I noticed the final bill was quite a bit lower than the estimate. I didn't say anything.
Another time I hired a carpet installer and paid him and later at tax time I looked at his bill and noticed he had made a mistake when he took out his calculator and figured "total amount owed" (the numbers did not add up). By the way, do you guys take out a calculator and make sure the addition and subtraction were done correctly on the invoice?.
I overpaid for the carpet install. I didn't say anything.
Recently I verbally hired a contractor for a small job and we had a 7 day deadline. The contractor is a friend and the job was a 2 hour job that paid pretty well (almost $400).
I found out the job didn't get done and I called the guy and he had completely forgotten about it!
I could write a book on these types of experiences...we all could. It happens everyday.
I agree completely. I too have had experiences similar, good and bad. But what I'd like to address and ask anyone is have you ever had a subcontractor or vendor or anyone increase their rates (in my case) 22% without written or verbal communication?
In my case, lets say rather than getting involved too late in the process, that I was reviewing invoices with my accountant at tax time and came across this increase after the sub had been paid. Should I say something? Probably not if it's small, but what if it amounts to thousands? Do I at this time only address this labor rate increase or do I now consider or question the possibility of other improprieties?
This is where I'm at right now. This is why I'm scrutinizing Her billings, her accounting practices, her business practices. This is why I sought counsel here at this forum. I wanted to hear from my peers... your experiences, your insights, your advise.
While my intro thread was inflammatory and ill-prepared at first, I have tried to explain my situation and position in a more calm and rational frame of mind. Much to the "grounding or humbling" effect a forum like this can present.So thanks again,Keep-em coming!Phil
Phil, You may have explained this, and if so point it out.
You have been on this house for 3 years and now finishing up. When was the rate of pay, landscape subcontracts/materials discussed with this Landscaper?
thanks.
Here's one for you to maybe partially explain that things do happen. I was finishing up on a moderate job and the homowner wished to settle up b/4 leaving for a couple weeks. I had the file with the mat. rcpts and knew my labor on the T&M project, so I wrote up a bill on the carbon work order pad I carry with me. Used the hand held calculator and must have hit an extra number in there somewhere.
Overcharged them a thousand dollars on a 3500.00 job. They didn't say anything and wrote the check. I noticed upon returning to the office and typing up the real statement. There was a check in his mailbox when they returned. Things do happen, not usually in volume like you describe however.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Calvin: you're an honest man and your customers will remember that incident for many years and will give your name to friends, neighbors, and relatives as an "honest" contractor.
There was no temptation.
If you start to lie cheat and steal, you're #### 'd.
I did steal twice, but that doesn't count.
The first was taking a candy bar outta the store.
The second was stealing it back into the store.
Thanks for the complement, it's worked for me.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
phill.. i came in as an expert witness in an arbitration hearing..
the job super had changed many things on his own hook from the plans
he freely admitted that he had not conferred with the architect
on the site work.. i demonstrated that there was no way the quantities claimed by the excavator could have been installed on the job
there were many thousands of dollars worth of scam and bad contracting that were all basically proven..
all the GC had to his credit were a bunch of signed Change Orders
that was the end of that.. the signed Change Orders carried the day for him..
big lesson to me.. i sure do get my Change Orders signed before we go forward
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Maybe it was different types of labor. Maybe it was design work as opposed to digging a hole. at this point you have no idea."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
I've got her by the balls Probably not.
Depending on what you think of her experience ... is she new to the business? ... I might sit down with her in a mentor type meeting and go through the documentation to show her what you found. She might be totally challenged in creating invoices.
As far as different invoice formats, maybe she's trying to find one that works well. Tell her which bone you like and why.
As long as you have not paid her in full, don't lose sleep over it.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Phill,
Suggestion: write down your questions and send 'em to the landscaper. I'd use the old "leading question" approach, for instance:
" I see on invoice # xx dated 10/1/04, labor rate is $20/hr. On sbusequent invoice # yy dated 11/22/04, labor rate is $30/hr. It appears that this is for the same type of work. What's he reason for this difference?"
Ask for written responses. The simplest way is to leve space after each question, for the sub to fill in.
The idea is to give her a chance to look things over, and that won't happen in a face-to-face meeting. Especially as hostile as you are about this.
One thing you might be prepared for--what if the landscaper got a verbal OK along the way for a labor rate increase, but your wife just plain forgot about it. This whole deal was real loose, no contract, no written change orders, etc.
Good luck, and I hope you get what's due you.
Cliff
And I hope the landscaper gets her money."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
Phil:
Here are a few off the cuff comments. Not meant to be inflammatory, more just to separate out some stray information presented in your initial post and leave the meat of the problem more exposed...
>> Mark-ups on product and subcontractors that surpass 50% (I surmise)
No clarification or disclosure of product , labor, and subcontractor mark-ups.
<<
If you have questions about individual items pose those Qs. Don't make a general statement like that to the contractor. As far as clarification or disclosure of markups, since when is that a requirement of doing business? When you go in K-mart, are you informed of the price for which they buy their merchandised?
>> Accounting anomalies: << inconsistently formatted paperwork is not your concern. Really just shows inexperience on her part.
>> Composite tallies of materials and labor costs which surpass given estimates by (in some cases more than 200%) << Based on the fact that you said there was 7 invoices, I'm guessing that the scope of the job was pretty broad. How much labor/material was actually added during the course of the job?
Really though, it sounds like the landscape contractor is at least as much mixed up as dishonest. I'd say prepare a list of your questions for her but leave out the emotion and superfluous information. Try to leave any accusation type statements out of your communications.
So? What's the final out come?
"All men's miseries derive from not being able to sit in a quiet room alone." Pascal
bump