Graywater/Speptic Recommendations or Alt
Background on the house and location:
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My family owns a small cottage (1,000 sqft) built in 1914 near Hooper’s <!—-><!—->Island <!—-> in <!—-><!—->Maryland <!—-><!—->. Currently the interior house is gutted and the exterior is more or less weather tight. First floor of the house sits about 30†above grade w/ a crawl space below. Grade is just above or at sea level depending where you are on the property. House sits on approx. 1/2 acre. Currently there is no septic on site.
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We are still in the planning phase, but once the house is finished it will have (2) full baths, (2) bedrooms, washer, and possibly a dishwasher.
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The house will be used as a vacation home throughout the year but mainly during the weekends from spring to fall.
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There is no sewer on the island but I’m not sure how well a septic system will work well being so close to sea level, perhaps using a mound system instead of a traditional drain field. Are there any other alternatives to dispose of the “graywater�
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We were also thinking about getting an Incinolet (http://www.incinolet.com/). Would you recommend this?
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No mater which route we decide to go we will consult the professionals to ensure that all work done is code compliant.
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We are just trying to explore all of our options and educate ourselves.
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Thanks for the help!
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Trevor
Replies
The information you provide begs the question of what sort of sanitary facilities the house had previously. I would suspect it may have been an outhouse or possibly a sealed, periodic-pump-out septic tank with no weeping field.
Generally, before you can install a weeping field, you have to dig a test hole to determine the permeability (and drainability) of the ground in which you intend to put it. If grade is that close to sea level, and you are on a small island, my guess is your test hole is going to fill up with seawater almost as soon as you dig it.
There are sand-filter weeping fields which are built on top of the existing soil when there is not sufficient depth (generally a minimum of 36-48") before you hit bedrock or the water table. I don't know what your local AHJ's position on these systems is; you're going to have to ask. However, I suspect that the potential for a storm tide or even just a very high springs tide would put the kibbosh on any type of weeping field that is lower than, say, the 50- or 100-year flood level.
I do know that here, properties near a river which lie in the floodplain may not install any type of septic system other than a sealed tank which is periodically pumped out (ie: whenever it's full).
BTW, 'greywater' is a term which refers to waste water which does not contain any human waste or food-scraps; only soap and detergent residue (as from baths or showers or washing machines). It used to be common in many parts of the world to direct greywater to a separate weeping field which is not preceeded by a settling or holding tank. All 'blackwater' (toilet waste) then went to a separate, smaller system.
Again, I don't know the code in Maryland. Here, there is no distinction allowed between greywater or blackwater. All waste water must be routed to the septic tank, and thence to a weeping field.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
the local building department is the first place to ask these questions, they may well have very strict requirements for what you can and cannot do.
I guess my next step is to call the local building department and see what they require. The island does have residents that live there year round so there must be a solution for the septic, my guess is a large sealed tank.
We thought we might be able to not use a septic by using a Incinolet to take care of the "backwater" and some kind of water re-use system for the "graywater". But if code is going to require all waste water go to a septic or storage tank we would plumb the house conventionally.
Thanks for the help!
Trevor
Graywater re-use systems are more involved than you might imagine.
Graywater contains waste from food, oils from cooking, bacteria/hair/skincells/remnant ####/####/menestration remnants/etc.!
As a result the graywater is inocculated with bacteria and immediately grow exponetially.....so storage and disposal become an imediate problem. Within 24-48 hours they must be handles or they sour-out and become funky!
Incinerating or waterless toilets all have their associated maintenance problems, which means someone has to clean up the $h!t!
In 2002 I worked with a local "green" community farmhouse construction. We had a years worth of research and discussion about septic/graywater/waterless & incinerating toilets and eventually decided that the concrete septic tank was the least maintenance, with the least contact issues and the most user friendly.
I can dig into the files if you need more info...............Iron Helix
Yikes! That is a little more involved than I thought it would be. I’ll pass all the info along to my in-laws (the owners). I think they just wanted explore all of their options before they drop $10-20k on full blown septic system.
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I’m requesting information from the county now, but I have a feeling we will end up with a concrete septic tank.
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Thanks for the info!
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Trevor
Our cottage had a incinerating toilet at one time (http://www.incinolet.com/). Not a fan. It was a headache.This was a luxury item instead of the outhouse.Currently looking into composting toilets:
http://www.envirolet.ca/
http://www.sun-mar.com/The basic operating principal is evaporation. Building inspector friend of mine has one at his cottage and he says it is fine, with venting being the major concern, i.e. insufficient or improper venting results in smell.They seem to be popular around cottage country here (southern ontario)If anyone else has comments on composting toilets I'd like to hear'em.
If anyone else has comments on composting toilets I'd like to hear'em.
The anti-flushers I know swear by the bucket&sawdust system. Composting done outside.
Lots of complaints about commercial units. You noted venting.PAHS works. Bury it.
Like this :
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/08164/889453-100.stm
Crazy......
Amish farmers ordered to jail in outhouse dispute
Thursday, June 12, 2008
The Associated Press
HASTINGS, Pa. -- Two Amish farmers in Cambria County have been sentenced to 90 days in jail for violating state sewage laws.
County sewage officials say Andy Swartzentruber and Sam Yoder don't have permits for outhouses at a school and have been disposing of waste improperly. Both men say the permits would violate their religious beliefs.
A district judge today offered the men a chance to pay a fine or perform community service to avoid jail time.
But they say they don't want to pay the fine. They say that performing community service would go against their religion.
Swartzentruber owns the property the school is on. Yoder is a school elder.
The men have until July 21 to appeal the sentence or report to jail.
Edited 6/12/2008 2:59 pm ET by wivell
Interesting, but attempting to bring faith into the argument strikes me as wrong. Immoral. They had religion-satisfying alternatives.
OTOH, there's no reason not to talk about real alternatives. On a different subject (water, not wastewater), I got the Va. State Health Dept. to change their rules for me several years ago. Gave them an argument they'd never heard.
Graywater wasn't anything I thought worth arguing. Here, it goes into a septic system. Period. I was allowed a composting toilet, but still needed septic for graywater.
Never brought up water purification systems. Fought that in Colorado many years ago, prefer not to repeat it.
All depends on what it's worth. PAHS works. Bury it.
We are building a cottage in northern Ontario and have just had our "grey Water Pits" approved.
We put 2 pits in, one on each end of the cottage to eliminate the need to put piping from one end of the cottage to the other end. These pits have been lined with pressure treated wood and back filled with sand.
1 pit that has only 1 kitchen sink is 5' x 8' x 5' deep, the other pit which has 1 shower and 1 sink is 9' x 9' x 5' deep.
Later on we will be able to put in a washing machine or dishwasher with the pit that has the kitchen sink.
We will be purchasing the swedish ecoethic composting toilet with the fan.
j88,
don't know if you changed your toilet yet but i figured i'd give my feedback. I found this post because i'm looking for information on incinerating toilets...
We have the Envirolet composting toilet at our cottage. At the time, we had no electricity so could not use the heated or power-vented unit.
It serves 7 kids and 6 adults (although not all the adults use it...i just #### in the woods) on the weekends we are there. It's not meant to handle that much load (pun intended) in that short amount of time and it usually smelled pretty bad. The venting through the stack was not sufficient. Emptying the toilet is a real pita. Without heat or enough venting, #### pools at the bottom. There is a drain for overflow but it's 1" of the bottom of the toilet. To empty the toilet, i need these: http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&p=10264&cat=2,42407,33240
We had since managed to get some electricity to the cabin. I installed an inline fan to the stack and it makes a big difference in the smell. I might buy the heating attachment now also to help evaporate the liquids.
The toilet is also a rough plastic which is hard to clean. The kids seem to have a hard time adding the peat-moss INSIDE the toilet.
FYI, I think the VEN-MAR is on display at Home Depot...at least it was in 2002 when i was shopping for this.
Thanks, good to know a fan makes a big difference.
We have been using a SunMar composting toilet at the cottage for a couple of years now. 2000 size. Unfortunately it is installed in a temporary location (shed) while the cottage is being built, so we only have a 5 gallon container of water above with gravity flow. It does not flush well and is constantly plugging. I am hoping it is due to the lack of water pressure. We do not put TP down it. I sure hope that with actual water pressure, it will flush better and will not have to put the TP in a garbage can for ever.
They require a lot of work. Daily cranking & adding the shavings is a must. Recently got lazy and wasn't cranking or filling daily, then the heater stopped working. After inspection, turns out the #### had burned a hole through the casing and shorted out the wiring. So don't think you can get around the daily maintenance.
The cranking is actually fairly tough to do (I am a 115 lb, 50 yr old female - can't image doing this when I am 70)
The crank handle broke in year 1, but SunMar promptly sent a new one under warranty so service was good.
I'm up the road from you in Maryland and do a lot of work on waterfront homes. All I can tell you for certain is that you are in for one big hassle from the State when you say "Bay" and Septic" in the same sentence in Maryland. Good Luck!
I did a little more searching and found out that MD is pretty strict about septic systems especially near the water ways. They actually passed a Bay Restoration Act. Here’s the link if anyone is interested: http://www.mde.state.md.us/Water/bayrestoration.asp
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Dogmeat12, we’re looking for the following trades/suppliers in the <!----><!----><!---->Cambridge<!---->, <!---->MD<!----><!----> (or anything closer to <!----><!---->Hoopers<!----> <!---->Island<!----><!---->) area:
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Septic Installer
Electrician
General Contractor
Well Installer
Lumber Yard (not Home Depot or Lowes)
Plumbing Supply House
Do you have any recommendations?
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Thanks again!
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Trevor<!----><!---->
I'm over in the Rising Sun/North East area so can't be of much help to you recommendation wise. I can say that before you set up your budget or do anything else, get the septic thing straight with Dorchester County AND the State because if you are within 1,000ft. of the Bay, you have a problem. If you are within 100 Ft. you are in for a world of s**t ( no pun intended). I don't mean to scare you, It's just that I have fought this battle before and it gets harder and harder. Are you aware that you can't use riprap for the shore line erosion control anymore? I'm sorry that I can't be the bearer of better news.
I’m pretty sure the house is within 1000’ feet of the water, but it is not right on the shore line. I’ve contacted Dorchester County Health Department and they are running a record search and property status report to determine the exact requirements for the property. Part of the Bay Restoration Act was to provide grants to homeowners that live near the water and have failing septic systems or are installing new systems. In order to apply for the grant you need to install one of several systems approved by the EPA for enhanced nitrogen removal. Most of these systems introduce air into the system to super oxygenate the water, similar to how modern sewage treatment plants work.
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We are still creating a budget for the remodel, but obviously the biggest cost is going to be the septic system. I’m in the process of getting quotes from the companies approved by the EPA to see what kind of financial damage we’re looking at.
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Thanks again for the help.
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Trevor
Over the years, I've seen several incinerator and composting toilets installed. They do have their place, but folks who are used to flush toilets aren't always happy with them. A word of caution about using them in a water-front vacation home: fill the house up with friends and family for a week-end and you may test the ability of the toilet to keep up.
As others have pointed out, this can be a really complex issue, especially in a situation like you have. I work in Virginia, but I hear that Maryland is getting serious about the potential for nitrate pollution of the bay from septic systems. That may involve a septic system that provides more treatment than the standard septic system.
You should start planning for sewage disposal early in the planning phase, since the layout, cost, etc. may affect your plans for the house. I think that in MD, the local health departments regulate onsite sewage disposal, and you should discuss the available options with them. States are quirky, and not all options are allowed in every state.
Consider waterless toilet ... i.e. composting toilet ... sounds like a good match for your pattern of use.
Greywater ... still contains e-coli. Many places have no distinction for treatment, but the IPC allows certain greywater sources to drain to shallow landscape irrigation ... untreated (only in season, though). I designed a land application greywater system once ... they are used commercially for all kinds of things (e.g. golf courses and parks). Don't expect the local officials to welcome you with open arms ... more like tar and feathers (they may not do it ... but they think it!).