Hi there,
My brother just told me about this forum and I’m excited to hear what tips you have about our gutter decision. We’re in a pretty big 2-family outside Boston, we just ripped off the aluminum and replaced it with clapboards and shingles, added a beautiful big farmer’s porch and now need to decide on the gutters. My husband wants copper, I think it’s a bit too fancy/expensive (it’s really just an expanded basic farmhouse), my bro recommends galvanized, and the painter we’ve hired has given us a good bid for wood. Any thoughts??
Thanks so much!!
Alex
Replies
Alex, first off, welcome to Breaktime! The collective knowledge here is amazing, and many lasting friendships are made. If you fill in your profile it will help us get to know you better.
Now, wood makes a beautiful gutter, IF it's prepared and maintained properly. That means at least twice-yearly trips up a ladder to clean, and once every year or two the inside should be washed down with Tung or Linseed oil. Copper and other metals can be made in different profiles--K-stlyle, like the aluminum ones you ripped down, or 1/2 round are the most common.
Can you tell us more about your house, your taste/style, maybe post a photo or two of the house?
There are a lot of folks here from the Boston area. I lived in Somerville and worked mostly on houses in Cambridge for several years.
Mike
Trying to get the pics attached.
alex
Uh, that first pic was an 8 minute download for this dialupper. Irfanview is a great program: http://www.irfanview.com/ Turns your pic into 65KB, from 715, very simply:PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Alex, beautiful house you have there! Since you are up on a hill I don't think you'll have any water issues, and since the cornice is all trimmed out any gutter you add won't blend perfectly with the design. I wrote an article for FHB that was published a month or two ago about exactly this issue--how to integrate a gutter into the design. I would agree with the guys who say leave well enough alone, unless you have specific areas where water seems to be a problem.
Mike
Looks like you've got good slope away from the house. If there's no foundation problems and the roof discharge is not beating up landscaping or splashing mud on the house, I'd say forget the gutters.I see dumb people.
the number one advice usually given isnt here so here it is.
get an umbrella and go outside when its raining and watch the water flow.
Hi Alex, in addition to what Mike said, there are several of us who view gutters as a last ditch attempt to fix a poor design. Are you certain your house requires gutters?
For myself, I only consider copper, but don't have a gutter on any of my buildings.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I was wondering the same thing myself...if they are really necessary. I was told they're needed to protect the paint (it will be stained, actually). I certainly don't think they're necessary for design. the house looks great now. I'm at work now...when I get home i'll try to post a picture...
Thanks!
alex
Greencu knows more about roofs than I ever will. Maybe he'll weigh in on your picture. You might want to read 18253.1 which is a thread about whether you need gutters. Didn't find it, but IIRC Mike Smith's posted pics of his gutterless house and had a bit to say on the subject.
Clearly there are times nothing but a gutter will work, just thought you should be sure you have that situation before you sign up for the maintenance.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks for the tips so far. I read that discussion about whether or not gutters are needed. Maybe we only need it on parts of the house... and would gravel really prevent the backsplash?
I'll attach some photos. HOpe it works.
alex
Half round aluminum gutters are also available. Nice product as a cheaper alternative to copper half round and are pre-painted.
You're almost as paranoid as the people that're trying to kill me.
If you spend the money on copper, be sure the installer will solder it. It's a waste of money to buy slip-jointed copper.
For my money, heavy-guage aluminum is really the best value, assuming it's available in a look you want. It's cheap, won't rust, and will perform as well as anything else besides copper. It's a little easier to dent than galvanized, but probably about on par with copper.
Wood looks nice but can be a maintenance nightmare.
Wood is more expensive than copper, and is a maintenance hassle. I think it is only worth it if the wood gutter is somehow integrated into the ornamentation of the house, like on some historic homes. My home has some of this going on, and I intend to line the replacement gutter with EDPM.
As for galvanized, for the labor involved in painting the stuff, you could have copper. I have removed a lot of rusted out galvanized recently, so I'm somewhat biased against.
For your house and roof style, a heavy gauge aluminum is the practical option. Of course copper would look better...
What we really need is a solid composite material that emulates wood gutter.
Personal taste enters here so whatever I suggest please remember that the advice is worth what you had to pay to get it..
IMHO copper should be used.. the reasons I like copper is it's strength and durability.. copper will be working decades after those aluminum gutters are in the trash. in addition the wonderful patina they have is really charming and adds a dramatic visable additon to a home..
If you are budget driven buy what you can afford and replace as you get additional funds..
Note! copper is for your last home, not for one that you intend to sell!..
Contrary to what others have said, I think gutters are mandatory unless you have Frank Loyd Wright overhangs. If you dont put gutters on your house you are going to have paint failure in just a few years. To say nothing of what it will do to the wood work on the porch. Water is a houses worst enemy. And dont do gravel against the house unless you want a damp basement.
If you dont belive me then just put a gutter on one part of the house and look at the difference in a couple of years.
Whether gutters are "necessary" or not depends on a number of factors, weather being the most obvious one. In most of the northeast, southeast, and midwest there's enough rain to merit them, but in the southwest and parts of CA probably not. (In parts of the northwest you need to build the house on an ark.)Beyond that, the size of the overhang and the conditions on the ground below are important. A gravel band in the drip line will eliminate most erosion and significantly reduce splashing, but most types of plantings (including sod) will not tolerate being in the drip line very well.Grading/drainage is also an issue. It's easier to route the water from a downspout away from the house than it is to make the entire lot slope away appropriately.And, of course, your tolerance of a number of these factors is also key. If you don't mind the plant/sod damage then you can maybe survive without a gravel band, with occasional repair work done where washing becomes bad.
This discussion has been really interesting for me--as you all are FAR more experienced with this stuff than I. I'm looking forward to reading more. I wish I'd sought advice here on all the endless decisions we made with this house.
THANKS!
Alex
alex ---
I know that this is off the point, but what if anything did you do about windows??
thanks.
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but we did in fact replace all the windows and added a few in the process. When we ripped off the vinyl, we discovered about 12 boarded up windows. fascinating.
Alex
alex ---
thanks for the response. i am curious as to what manufacturer of windows did you use. were they replacement sashes or did you replace the entire window???? so far, have you been happy with the results??
thanks
Every window was replaced entirely, as we wanted to have some amount of uniformity of size, and there were about 5 different styles (casement, sideways, sash...) that we wanted to get rid of. So we got new trim inside and out, as well. The new windows are excellent. We got Andersen.
I'm still curious...why you ask? Want to see a picture of what it looked like before?
Alex
alex --
thanks for the response. I am currently starting the renovation/restoration of a 1923 Craftsman style bungalow and am conflicted about what approach to take with the windows. The Andersens you chose were what type -- wood, clad, etc.????
Have you been happy with them so far??? Would love to see the pictures.
Thanks
Sorry to not get back sooner. So they're Andersen wood, clad in something more durable on the outside (I forget what it is, but it's their pretty basic window). They were about $300, I think. We love them, entirely...no complaints.
I hope these files aren't too big.
Alex
Before the renovation...
Gutters and eave troughs are not decoration, if you want bright shiny metal on your house buy stainless steel appliances. Install gutters and down pipes that carry the run off well away from the foundation. Get a price from a continuous eave trough installer.
Remember never listen to anyone who thinks gutters are optional.
Nice house.
david....
<<<Remember never listen to anyone who thinks gutters are optional.>>>
of course they are not optional.. but you can eliminate them altogether if you design for it..
good overhangs.. roof pitches.. grading around the foundation.. foundation water management
i dare say i've probably installed more gutters than the average bear.... wood, copper, galvanized, aluminum... you name it , we've installed them
.. but i still hate them and always try to figure ways of eliminating them
and it doesn't take much to do it either
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Why do you dislike gutters Mike, appearance? I agree you can get around them but most people do not design for that so I would rather recommend gutters than take chances on runoff flowing back toward the house.
david... i always try to design and build with low maintenace in mind..
i've spent a lot of time since '62 working on ohter people's homes..
a lot of that work involved , and still involves.. working with gutters, cornice, fascia, and roof edge..
most gutters are installed and forgotten... they fill with leaves and debris.. they then fill with water and back up into the trim, rotting everything in their path..
wooden gutters have to be properly detailed so they won't overflow back into the wall, they have to be maintained and cleaned..
aluminum gutters have to be cleaned.... a typical cleaning costs $200 .. if yu can get someone to do it.. the hottest selling item on tv is "gutter helmet".. i'd like to see a gutter with gutter helmet on it in 5 years
gutters fill with snow and ice then they back up into the cornice
this morning we installed 180' of green aluminum gutter... that's what they wanted.. looks pretty good too...
but my house, my office, my garage... large overhangs, good grading.. no gutters...
and no splash either....
(one trick is to use sod in the drip line instead of planting grass )
most older homes in snow country have no gutters..the ice would rip them off anyways..
gutters are something we've managed to convince ourselves we need.. when we really don't..
my wife always amazes the people in her office when they start talking about "time to clean the gutters "Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I once heard someone say that "gutters are a way of having rainwater play a round of minature golf before it gets from the roof to the ground".I see dumb people.
Gee, I would have said billiards.
I think you might want guttering on the porch only,since it receives water from the main roof on one side and you have steps in one spot.
5" copper ogee gutters would be ideal-soldered as someone said with 3" round corrugated downspouts of copper.That would compliment your lovely exterior quite well.
You have steps just to the side of the main roofs terminus,so in a wind driven rain that might pose problems with entering in a heavy rain.
As for snow and ice ripping gutters down: they should be set so they are lower than the projection of the roof plane.New England has lots of guttering which survives the Winter weather.Your roof isn't slate so sliding snow is not a huge concern.
of course they are not optional.. but you can eliminate them altogether if you design for it..good overhangs.. roof pitches.. grading around the foundation.. foundation water management.... This is what I did. Let the water come off the roof.
I seem to notice that some of the folks who say gutters are unnecessary post pics of houses with little to no landscaping... I think there is a message here. Really though, it is a very regional thing and here in NC there isn't that much ice/snow and we get enough downpours that landscaping can't take that much water, and for the most part, the only homes that don't have gutters have another interesting embellishment...
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Wheels!:-) Matt
matt.. we get between 33" and 43" of rain.... today we're supposed to get up to 4"
sunday night we got 2".. we get lot's of rain..
here's my office
View Image
and garage with a view of the grass under the drip line
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 4/2/2005 8:25 am ET by Mike Smith
here's a 58" one-pc. gutter we hung Thursday..
View Image
and don't blame us .. we didn't build the roof or the fascia..
and a pic of the gutter with our fascia hangers 2' OC..
a pic of the downspout hangers we use with one oif the custom tops our gutter supplier makes up for us
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 4/2/2005 8:32 am ET by Mike Smith
Landscaping is a lot more than just grass... Maybe the look you pictured is popular where you live, but not here... In new construction, even on the cheapest new homes some "builder bushes" are included. My guess would be though that remodeling rarely involves landscaping other than soil stabilization.<!----><!---->
I'm not sure what the average yearly rainfall is here but I think it is a little higher than yours. 4" of rain is pretty darn significant though...<!---->
I think we are gonna have to agree to disagree on this one though...<!---->
I was gonna post a pic or 2 but my computer is hosed up by some adware... Can't use the spell checker here either...
For professional help on landscaping check over at the <!----><!----><!---->taunton<!----><!----> gardening magazine forum site <!---->
;-)<!---->
Matt
You didn't indicate how old. I'm guessing less than 5 yearss. Over time (another 5-10 years) the soil along the drip line will be depleted of nutrients and some of its loam/clay particles, leaving a sand/gravel substance that won't grow sod.
the office is 1995... and the sod was planted in 1995..
here's the office drip line (1995)..
View Image
later i'll show you a pic of our house.. no sod there.. the drip trench is about 2" deep and the grass grows on both sides..
i ignore it...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 4/2/2005 9:12 am ET by Mike Smith
OK - got rid of some of the adware junk... If anyone ends up with "Security iGuard" on their windows PC, remove it using Start->Control Panel->Add/Remove programs.
Anyway, attached is a pic of "landscaped". For lack of a wide selection of pics to choose from, this is our house - with gutters ;-) Matt
I like the look of "no-gutter"... but for those who are debating ripping their gutters off... there is more to it than just takin' 'em down. The main reason I am posting this... reading this thread from a pure outside viewpoint might suggest that everyone should just "rip-em-off". I know that is not what is intended, advocated... whatever. It just reads that way.
Eaves, overhangs, roof-slope, landscaping, drainage, etc have to ALL be taken into account.
My own house is a prime example. Great design on the eaves (28"... some places, it's larger than that). Roof pitch... 4-12... check. Drainage... what drainage? Landscaping... it's OK... but a huge deck in the back... not good for water to be dripping on the wood deck. Verdict... need to do a lot of work before making decision not to put gutters on (BTW... it currently only has gutters on the front entry... and there are some significant issues I need to address from the years of unabated water (which I knew about when I bought the house).
When I put my additions on.. it is impossible to avoid valleys (OK... not "impossible".. maybe "not feasible" is a better term). It takes some REAL design to abate the water flowing from a valley that collects water from even a small amount of roof... let alone the amount of roof that I will have on this thing!
Again... I do like the "look" of a no-gutter.... however, if it thought that doing no-gutter will be cheaper... not so. Appropriate steps need to be taken to create the functionality, prior to having the gutters disappear.
David - make sure that you listen to this, because gutters are otional.But on this house, I would probably use them. Either a nice copper or an integral wood gutter. Wood done right woulds fit the house style.Somebody said something about protecting the paint by using gutters. That is dead wrong. Gutters have caused as many paint problems as they are likely to solve. Any paint job that won't stand up to rain is niot done right anyway. The main reason for the gutters is to control the volumn of water so it does not go into the grouns and hurt the foundation. Earliest gutters were directed into the cistern to save the water for domestic use. OK You can start listening to everybody else now.
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