Hanging a Ledger on Concrete – Fasteners
Cargo47
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
While lag-in-shield seems to be the recommended method of hanging a deck ledger from a concrete foundation, are there some other recommendations from you pros?
My experience with smaller lags (5/16 & 3/8) is that there are always one or two that snap, requiring more drilling and ledger prep. I’d like to avoid the problem if there is a better solution.
Replies
I can think of at least two other methods besides using lag screws and shields- through-bolting all the way through the wall or, if the wall is poured (and not concrete block construction), you could use studs that are held in pilot holes with fast setting epoxy. I've used the latter for attaching framing to existing slabs and it seems to work real well. The epoxy is kind of expensive but sets up really fast. I believe Simpson makes the epoxy.
Based upon my experience of having lags pull out, I also prefer drilling through the foundation if possible. A rotary hammer will punch a bunch of 1/2" dia. bolt holes through 10" of concrete faster than repairing failed lag bolts.
use expansion bolts .drill only one size hole through board and concrete using hammer drill . through lead shields and lags in garbage. HD has these bolts in stock. For smaller fasteners to mount on concrete use "Tapcons" also at HD
Hilti Wedge bolts. Drill and drive. Tighten. Forget it.
Forget Tapcons for this too.
Excellence is its own reward!
What are those Piffin? Any special tools or just a hammerdrill and a driver? Are they like expansion bolts or "Red Heads"?
Red Heads and Wedge Anchors are essentially the same. I'm with piffin on this. I've used thousands of all sizes up to 3/4" (which has a sheer strength of something like 18000 lbs, if I recall) and never had one pull out or break off. Ever need to get one out? Gotta grind it.
Hilti-bolts ARE THE ORIGINAL wedge bolt. I use mostly half inch..
Excellence is its own reward!
Bozo's handy tip of the day:
Lowe's and HD have all the red-head bolts, but jeez, they are high...check out your local industrial supply house...the kind of place that sells all kinds of stuff to local industry. That's where I buy all my bolts, lags, screws, and concrete anchors. For example, the redheads (brand) cost about half or just less than at Lowe's.
And you have more variety! And quicker restocking if they run out.
I'm interested in the fixing method for a different reason.
My folks had a kitchen extension & deck put on in the '80s while I was living in South Africa. Plans showed footings and foundation, but they got piers and everything is slowly sinking. GC must have realized after the bid there was an old oil tank there.
Anyway, I don't want to pull off the entire addition, but the deck has to be rebuilt anyway and the joists and ledger of the kitchen extension are covered from underneath. Big crown where the old floor meets the new, and oh yes, according to my laser level, the kitchen extension sits down 2 1/4" over a span of 10 feet.
I'm going to jack up the extension after demolishing the deck. The old finish is glass-type stucco over angled shiplap & 2x4 studs - I have no confidence the contractor even found the box joist.
Would the Hiltis you mention keep my kitchen from falling off until I can get the tank out and the foundation in, you think?
Yea, where were the inspectors THEN?At my age, my fingers & knees arrive at work an hour after I do.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
see the misadressed #24 above.
Excellence is its own reward!
I ran across these from Simpson:
View Image
They're actually for attaching ledgers to ICF walls, but I wondered if they would work or not. The link for the page is:
http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors_list/ICF.html
I find television very educating. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book.
Guys:
Thanks for the ideas!
Checked with the Department of Permitting Services (our friendly, helpful building code enforcement guys) and either through-bolts, wedged bolts, or the Simpson studs are OK.
The ICF ledger looks interesting, but might require an engineering signoff for use on something other than ICF - something to look at.
Again - thanks for the quick response - the SWMBO has me on a pretty tight schedule.
Todd
those sizes you mentioned are too small. Use 1/2" lags, and the sheild needs a 3/4" hole.
Rawl pins. Can't beat 'em. Drill right through the ledger and into the concrete with your hammer drill and drive them home. Absolutely will not come out and your Aunt Tilly and her fat assed sister couldn't shear one off.
ROTFL...HA HA HA HA HA...musta just caught me off guard. You outta write commercials for the things!
Drill thru lumber and masonry with the same bit used for tapcons. I use a small roto hammer.Drill 4 1/2" deep and insert a 4" piece of tie wire [ the type used for rebar] then drive a 16 d galvanized nail along side wire into masonry. This will not pull out, the lumber could be pried off with a 4 foot stripping bar and the nails will still be there.Have not used a tapcon or other anchor for 2x material since I was shown this method 20 years ago.The reason the hole is drilled 1" deeper than the nail is for dust buildup in the hole.
Mike
quik-bolts---various brand names,hilti,redhead,rawl.....wedge anchors
Why not powder actuated fasteners?
This page reviews the anchoring methods and recommends wedge anchors for a ledger. http://www.acehardware.com/PRC/ProjectKD/weather/masonryan/masonry.asp
My guess on why not powder-actuated for ledgers is because of the possibility of pull-out. With sills to floors or furring to walls, there's not much pullout force on the nail, but with ledgers there is that plus regular vibration, and just like lags are better than nails for connecting ledgers to wood, so wedge anchors have the advantage with these kinds of stresses.
Guys -
Thanks again - for the advice and entertainment.
The wire and nail method sounds like it's a tried-and-true method, but here in PRMC (People's Republic of Montgomery County), all decks (and I mean all decks - even the low ones) get footer, frame, and final inspections, and the guys are pretty serious about approved methods.
Lots of decks get built here without permits, but my backyard is clearly visible from the county highway and one of the "neighbors" has a rep for ratting out both DIY and 'below the radar' pros.
On bolt size, the smaller lags I've used were for trellis, etc. - MC requires 1/2" bolts or lags 2' OC. For Redheads/Hilti, this would be a 5/8" sleeve (1/2" bolt shaft) or 1/2" wedge. Any pref between sleeve or wedge from the folks that have used them when going into 12 year-old 8" poured concrete walls? Hole depth is not an issue - a Bosch Bulldog is available for the project.
I'll let you guys know how it turns out - third deck I've built (everyone's got an all-thumbs BIL that wants a deck built, right?), but first into concrete - also first one with Ipe/Eb-Ty.
Thanks again-
Todd
Thanks for the link and the explanation.
The bolt size and spacing needs to be engineered.
They have great shear strength but it sounds like you are delaing with a connection to a frame wall - the stucco over shiplap. Hilti's are are wedge bolt. It expands in a hole in the concrete as you tighten the nut. It sounds like you need lag screws..
Excellence is its own reward!