About to hang kitchen cabinets for the first time. Whee…
The painter offered to hang them (for a small fortune) using genuine piffin screws. He is not longer working for me (for other reasons.)
I hae the “Claw” clamps, 3″ almond washer head cabinet screws from McFeeley’s, and the small jacks also from McFeeley’s. The cabinets are the beginning of the top end cabinets from Lowes.
I have read several articles on hanging cabinets. However, none of them mention any trick of how one makes sure that the screws are dead center on the studs. In my case, the top of my cabinets are at 8′ and the top of the double plate is also at 8′, so that gives me 3″ to hit, which is the most important part. However, anchoring the bottoms might be a bit trickier. The studs range from 14″ to 17″ spacing, with fire blocking about every two to three feet.
What are the preferred methods of getting the screws centered on the studs? Do you just measure along the wall and then transfer this to the upper cabinets when they are sitting on the floor? Do you write out a diagram giving all of the spacings? Use a story pole? Do you drill pilot holes before putting the cabinets up against the wall?
At present I have the studs marked out on the wall, but I will lose then when I paint the wall prior to putting up the cabinets. I suppose I could paint the wall in sections and then transfer the outline of the studs from the unpainted areas to the painted sections before I finish painting the wall. Sounds kind of fussy, though.
I also have a David White laser level that will run a vertical line. I suppose I could mark the spacing of the studs on the floor and then line up the laser and see if I can mark the spot on the inside of the cabinet without getting in the way of the laser light. I am inclined to just measure the wall and transfer the measurements to the back of the cabinets and drill pilot holes from the back while the upper cabs are sitting on the floor.
I appreciate your sharing your accumulated wisdom…
Thanks, Casey
Replies
You can find the centers of the studs with a finish nail right above the tops of the base cabs. Take your measurements from there. The studs should be level enough in the nineteen inches from there to the bottom of the uppers to still be in the center of the stud.
I always drill a pilot hole before I lift the cabinet to the wall.
Mike
It's really not that necessary to "hit the stud dead center", just so long as you hit them.. I assume the walls were already drywalled before you started, otherwise you would have had the chance to install blocking for the cabinets.
Of course, this is a good opportunity to mention some of the hidden dangers that we seldom think about. Just last week I saw a guy run one of his screws into a waterpipe. Really good example of the importance of carrying insurance!!!!!!!!!
All the suggestions you offer work just fine. Which ever method you use, spend the time to make good stands so that the uppers are where you want them and you are not under any pressure to attach them quickly.
Watch out for the wiring. I occasionally have to deal with a cabinet screw through a cable.
If you didn't see the framing before the drywall went up, here's some guidelines:
--there are gonna be at least a couple of cables running up the stud that a light switch box is mounted on. Figure out which side of the stud the box is attached to and stay away from that side;
--there'll be cables running down the stud from the switch to the garbage disposal
--there'll be romex runing between the receptacles serving the countertop. The best place for those cables to run is above the backsplash and below the top cabs--generally in the area between about 40" and 58". If the sparky didn't run the wiring in that zone, or didn't nailplate each stud (and there are no NEC or other Code requirements to do so), good luck. I get a couple of jobs a year to troubleshoot kitchen upgrades (not complete gut/remodel) wherre the wiring is left in place and a cabinet screw hits a cable.
That can get real ugly--the client usually just wants to job done and over with at that point in the process. It's no fun to tell the client or general contractor that a damaged section of cable has to be re-run. I can fish just about any situation with my bag of tricks, and not create an obvious access hole. But it's not cheap...
When I rough-in any kitchen, I make sure to run the wires in the "clear zone" and also I use 3M stackers when running wire along a stud. These are cable mounting clips that hold the romex off the stud by a half-inch or more. And when I have to run other places, I nailplate liberally. Oh, and I put in my contract that damage subsequent to installation of the wiring is not covered as a part of the fixed-bid; troubleshooting and repair will be done at $125/hr.
If you want to be safe about the wiring, use mounting screws that are 1.25 inches plus the cab frame that you'll be screwing through, or shorter. The NEC requires that the outside edge of any hole through framing for a cable be at least 1.25 inches from the edge of the framing, or be nailplated. I know top cabs, when full of dishes or canned goods, can be very heavy, and I don't know if that much thread into wood is strong enough; maybe an engineer could weigh in here.
Good luck,
Cliff
<< troubleshooting and repair will be done at $125/hr. >>
I should have been an electrician! :-) Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Remodelerator
i prefer when i can.... to run a 1x top & bottom shimmed the best i can... this screws to your studs... then you mount your uppers to this... with scres anywhere you want...... not like you can hit studs with a 9 or 12" upper anyway unless you are just lucky... yes this will bring your upper out an extra 3/4" and yes you can see the lower 1x but you can prepaint it... or you can run it 1/4" high prepaint it black if your cabs are dark... or you can run it 1" high and mount rope light to the bottom of it for a good effect... just all kinds of ways to make more work... something i do very well...
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You can drive finish nails in the wall where the cabs will cover them to be sure exactly where the studs locate.
Then before starting to hang, use a scrap strip to make a storyboard, and/or run some painters mash along the wall just under where the cabs line up. Make your marks on that.
take a reference mark and measure from there, predrill the carcass but no the wall.
I try to assemble a run of wall bas on the floor or table and then hang all at one time. Makes it easier to align the faces.
Ooops, are you using face rframes or European framless?
You really do not have 3" to hit of plate at top. you only have about 2-1/4" due to SR and mud.
Check to see where the wall is straight or not and since you are planting tight to the cieling, if the corner there is square or if you have another problem to deal with - are you using a crown on these? Or just hoping all the SR is straight and the fit is fine?
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". I am inclined to just measure the wall and transfer the measurements to the back of the cabinets and drill pilot holes from the back while the upper cabs are sitting on the floor."
I take it one step further and start the screw in the cab and leave it there so all I have to do is pick up my gun and drive it home.
Most important thing (for me anyhow) in cab install is layout. Find your high point on the floor (never assume your floor is level, even in new construction), then from that point measure up to the point where the top of your base cabs will be and mark it on the wall. Snap that line level all the way around. From that line measure up 18" plus thickness of counter top and mark and snap that line. My PLS laser on a tripod is a godsend for this process as it does both horizontal and plumb.
Next I mark all studs and lightly pencil in their centers on the revealed section between your snapped lines and mark it with an 's'.
Finally I mark where all the back of the cabs are landing on the wall taking into consideration the backs are not quite as wide as the fronts because of the face frames . That's when I can make any and all adjustments with fillers, where water pipes may land, making even reveals for trim on both sides of a window etc. etc. I label the cab # on the wall where the cab will eventually cover it up.
I do uppers first, so I screw a ledger board on the line where they will sit.
Yes, it is very fussy and most installers don't quite go to that extent of layout. But guess what? It saves you time and lots of heartache in the end. That whole process on the average kitchen takes me maybe an hour and a half. I just did an install last week on a medium size kit by myself, uppers and lowers with a peninsula. Two days, done. The template guys come tomorrow.
Thanks for all the advice. In my case, the hight on the wall will be determined by a corner full height cabinet. I will have to align all of the other uppers to that one. Piff, in my case, I do have 3" of double top plate. The ceiling is a cathedral ceiling with open beams, and the double top plate is at the bottom of the 4x6 beams and the angle of the beams means that there is almost an inch on the inside wall between the top plate and the bottom of the beam. The cabinets are traditional face frame, unfortunately, while they have plywood sides, they have 1/2" MDF at the back (I assume it is MDF, it feels pretty hard to the fingernail.) On using 1 1/2" screws. Most recommendations that I have seen say to use either 2 1/2" or 3" screws. That's with 1/2" plywood at the back of the cabinet and 1/2 sheetrock, I think they are shooting to a minimum 1 1/2" penetration into the stud.Someone mentioned that you don't have to hit the studs dead center. I agree, but you also don't want to hit them out near the edge. I have demoed enough construction to know that it is not uncommon for carpenters to put a nail into the outer 1/4" of a stud and blow out the wood along that edge giving zero holding power. I would prefer to get no closer to 1/2" of the edge if I can.
It would be insane to use less than a 2-1/4" screw.
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I also like to set the bottom cabinets first, then the tops. This is especially important if there is one of those "appliance garage" thingy's going in, where you have to get the distance between the uppers and lowers perfect. or if there will be a tiled backsplash where you also have to get the spacing perfect. It's a heck of a lot easier to mark out where the uppers will go once you have the lowers all set and level rather than vice versa.
I keep a piece of 1/2" plywood ripped down to 2' for a temporary countertop, then I have a couple of 'pedestals" that I made up out of scrap plywood. I sit the pedestals on the plywood countertop, then set the upper on the pedestals and then it's just a matter of scooting it into place and screwing it up (And believe me, if there's one thing I'm good at, it's screwing stuff up!!) This method also works just as well if you like to attach a bank of cabinets together before lifting them all into place." If I were a carpenter"
Just to clarify, CAP, was saying you need 1 1/4" penetration into the stud, plus 1/2" for the hanger bar,plus 1/4" for panel thickness, plus 1/2" for drywall...equals 2 3/4" screw length, or as is typical 2 1/2" - 3" long screw......
My two cents , install temp ledger, pre-drill screw locations in cab. set cab on ledger and adjust into position R. to L. pre-drill into wall stud, (you'll do a lot less cussing if you're using 3" screws, if you pre-drill the studs with 1/8 pilot bit 6" long), drive screws but do not drive home, leave about 1/4" - 3/8" out, set second cab. on ledger, clamp stiles together, fasten with #8x 2 1/2" FHW screw(3 per), predrilled with clearance hole through first stile and 1/8" tap hole into second stile & countersunk, now set a screw into this cab into the wall, and then install third cab in same manner and so on to end of run. Shim and fasten permanently, both top and bottom of cab.
You can also assemble a row of 2 -4 cabs on the floor and raise them into place as a unit, but you need some help to lift them. I always do uppers first to avoid any damage to lowers while leaning over them to install uppers.
**You should first find your high point on the subfloor, from this point you can measure up 34 1/2 " and strike a level line around the room, this is the top of your base cabs. Assuming 34 1/2" bases with 1 1/2" counter thickness, strike a second line 54" off the subfloor, this is the bottom of your upper cabs and the line you will fasten your ledger flush to. Your total cab height is 84" w/standard 30" uppers, since you mention a full height corner cab,it's height will determine your total height, but in any case ,this method will work. It's better to have to shim your tall cab than to have to cut it down!! Also double check your "counter" dimension to accomadate any appliance garages (if any) you might have , or other cabs that may sit on the counter.
Geoff
Just out of curiosity, how many screws, of appropriate length, do you feel is adequate for an upper cabinet of, say, 27" width? And, how many other screws do you normally put in?
two to four per cabinet as long as they aren't sheetrock screws.Minimum 2-1/4" but I usually use 3"#10 or 12
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Lasers? Chalk lines? Ledgers??Geeze guys...this little secret may save a lot of time:I learned this from an old trim carp a few years ago and he and I could do 3 kitchens a day installing for HD, the local kitchen shop or builders new construction.Don't put the bases in first.Draw a level line along the walls that get cabinets. Hammer a finish nail above this line to find studs. Measure each stud from the corner that cabinets butt into and write the numbers on the wall next to the stud. Each measurement goes to the corner, not stud-stud. (16, 32, 40...etc)Unpack ALL wall cabinets and lay them on their back in the order they go on the wall. Assemble them to each other exactly as they go on the wall (screw face frames to each other, or sides if frameless). Attach filler now if applicable.Stand them up 90 degrees so they're away from the wall, but in the exact orientation as if they're on the wall. Now, hook your tape on the corner cabinet and mark all the stud location on the back. Pre-drill with 3/16" drill (top and bottom of cabinet) and loosly insert cabinet screws from inside of cabinet.Now it gets fun: grab the plumber, builder, helper and electrician and lift them all up at one time and stick them to the wall. One guy walks around with driver and screws them to the wall while the other guys hold them up. Bam, being an all assembled unit solves leveling and un-flat wall issues. We've done this with as many as 8 cabinets at a time, in an L configuration.Never once had a cabinet break apart during lifting either.
Edited 4/25/2007 9:36 pm ET by Buttkickski
That is the same way I already said that I do it. Did you mean to adress this to me or somebody else?
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Lasers, chalk lines and ledgers are a big waste of time & effort IMO.I addressed it to you because I expect to take some heat for not using a method as precise as most here are advising.
I see - you wanted to take on the biggest pile of heat you could find, eh?Oh well, I've been disappointing people all my life. It's a long line. Now you're in it.
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I mark the location of studs below the bottom of the cabinets, set them on an attached cleat, then use a PLS2 laser at each stud mark to mark studs location within the cabinet, then shoot the screw thru the cabinet. Works great.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Tip: to remove any stray pencil marks after the job is done...MrClean "Magic Eraser"...Its,,well its magic!You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
I use denatured alcohol
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Here's a little trick a friend showed me. Works like a charm.
Remove a 4 inch strip of drywall/plaster the length of the cupboards along the top and bottom of the cabinets where you would normally screw the cabinet to the wall.
Insert a piece of 1 x 4 strapping material or plywood ripped into 3 1/2" strips.
Hang your cupboards, level, and screw into place.
If you can get your hands on a cabinet lift, you will be able to do it by yourself.
Dave