Anyone else have a hard time bringing themselves to do a bid? Its like having to write that term paper in college, I dread it. Anyone have any motivational things they do to get on one of the most important parts of their business?
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Start charging for them.
Woods favorite carpenter
yeah ... sometimes I attack it ...
sometimes put it off as long as I can rationalize.
I have found that when I put it off then have to "cram" ... I usually end up better in the end! I dunno ... less time to second guess reality?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I can't get one done. I'd rather guess.
It's not in my talent description. Some people love putting these things together. I don't. If you are going to count on me, it'll be late.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Yeah, sometimes they are hard. I tend to be slow and thorough when researching, quick when pricing. Like Jeff, I find second-guessing myself works against me. Since I have employees now, I'm trying to advertise more, bid more, and get better at it. Sometimes it works that way. =)
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I always thought this might be a problem. I'm in the middle of GC'ing my own house and I can't tell you the number of subs who drive 30 minutes one way, spend another 30 or 45 minutes with me going over the scope of work, tell me they'll get me a proposal and I never hear from them again.
I think when it's time to put pen to paper they freeze.
Runnerguy
Writers Block.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
And its funny, all these H.O.'s complaining about the guy who didn't give 'em a bid, never think the contractor might sit at his keyboard, look at his screen, ask himself Do I really want to work for that guy?....then get up and go watch a TV show instead. =)View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Your situation is explainable. Something in the way you present yourself, or make demands is causing them to decide that they don't want any thing to do with either you or the project.Don't look at that as a bad thing. You are entitled to do things the way you want them and you want contractors that are compatible with you. One other reason might be THEIR qualifications. They might not be capable. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You're right. Two way street here. I've walked the job with some prospective subs and concluded I wouldn't want to work with this or that guy.
What's baffling is when I call a guy up that seemed interested at the job I sometimes hear "Yes, I'm doing it now", never to hear from him again. At least he could say "I got another big job and can't get to it any time soon" even though that may not be the truth.
Also baffling is some suppliers. So far I've had two (gas fireplaces and door hardware), that said they were working up a quote but instead evaporated like the morning dew.
For all the subcontractor lurkers on this thread I would like to say I've made a point of getting back to everyone that gave me a meaningful bid. I realize the valuable time spent doing it so there's at least a benefit to those who didn't get the job. I explain the other quotes I received, answer any questions they may have and why I went with the company I did (as opposed to why I didn't go with them if it's noneconomic related). Most really appreciate it but some have gotten kinda defensive but that's ok.
Runnerguy
You sound like a good client and I wouldn't worry too much about why they aren't getting back to you.Some contractors don't like working with well informed clients. That might be you.Some might prefer well informed clients.Some don't like to work for homeowners but are willing to spend a little time and check your job out. Some might not be comfortable with one component of your job. The guys that aren't getting back to offer you a bid are just too socially inept to tell you they aren't interested. Tradesmen, generally speaking, aren't people persons. They are individualists that would rather interact with their trade and craft and the components of their trades rather than people. We are kind of like computer geeks but the wood and crete are our hard drives and software. Very few tradespeople are adequate at sales either. I think the ratio of successful businesses vs barely surviving business bear out that argument. Just keep plugging along and if you think you need to talk to five people, talk to ten. You'll get at least two good comparative bids. Incidently, I'm going through exactly what you are right now myself. I'm a tradesman, an insider, and I still am not doing much better than you. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
As project manager, I would just keep calling. There are a bunch of reasons why they won't get back to you.I must have called one guy about a dozen times. He must not have liked the look of our client. Finally he returned my call, did the job, got paid, happy ending for everyone. I procrastinated calling back lots of clients, myself. Some people are harder to deal with than they realize. Often, I didn't have the answers to the questions I knew they'd ask, like when back-ordered product would arrive. People are funny. We all procrastinate doing things we don't like, to a greater or lesser extent. We all do things that aren't in our best interest. We all have problems, sometimes, figuring out what our interests ARE. I've learned to push people more than I used to.
Frank is a great project manager like that. He will push, push, push them to get them to commit, then push them to carry their commitments out. In the long run, it helps everyone because the schedule can be counted on. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
What's baffling is when I call a guy up that seemed interested at the job I sometimes hear "Yes, I'm doing it now", never to hear from him again. At least he could say "I got another big job and can't get to it any time soon" even though that may not be the truth.
The tricky thing about bidding work is to not bid more than you can do if you get it all. I'm mostly a sub so the GC's I work for get preference. The one's that pay their bills promptly get more preference and the one's that are easy to get along with also get a bump.
To keep my valued contractor business, I have to bid every job that they're interested in whether I'm interested in the job or not. I have to take the interesting with the boring to maintain our relationship.
So, I bid 6 jobs for GC1 and 9 jobs for GC2 and 5 jobs for GC3. Most of this stuff takes about 6 months to come to fruition.
In the meantime, I'm getting a little slow. Homeowner Joe calls me with a job that interests me. I meet with him, measure it up, and start working on a proposal. But he has no plans and hasn't picked out exactly what he wants. I try to help him decide by pricing his job 5 different ways, but in the meantime he gets another bid from a high pressure type company selling something proprietary. He wants to know why this product is better and slightly cheaper than the closest comparable option I've given him. In the meantime, I've invested a couple of days time with this guy and have nothing to show for it.
Then he decides he likes me for the work, but wants a revision to lower the price. Shortly before he calls to ask me for more paperwork based on uncertainty, GC's 1,2 & 3 call to tell me that we've gotten 14 of the 20 jobs we bid on and 2 of them will be ready for me by Friday.
I drop HOJO like a hot potato and run for the sure thing. Suddenly, Im overwhelmed with work. My daughter gets in trouble at school. My foreman's dad dies. I get busted by OSHA. One of my subs decides he doesn't want my business anymore when I was depending on him. Whatever, but life is coming at me fast. Calling HOJO back is at the bottom of a non-existant list.
Now, if HOJO is so enamored of my work that he persists in calling me, then I'll get a little more excited about working him in. But I've already invested 3-4 times the amount of time with him that I did for my GC's who come to me with set perameters for me to price. And I don't know if HOJO is going to pay his bills promptly.
I guess for some of us, the call backs cost family time or (heaven forbid) valuable internet time............http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Homeowner gets several bids, picks the one he likes, dumps the others without so much as a phone call. That's expected. Contractor looks at numerous jobs, picks the ones he likes (to bid), dumps the others. What a flake!
I still say (and as your post shows) the system itself is goofy. But its what we have.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
When you give a bid to a homeowner it's got a time limit (or should). What's the time limit for a contractor making the bid?
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
No industry standard I know of, so I always ask.
I take it back, now that I think about it, the industry standard reply is "As soon as possible!" A logical reply, of course, since most people have no idea the amount of work that goes into a bid.
You know, stuff like: Get the plans and spec's, study the plans and spec's, walk the job with the client, make copies of the plans and spec's (they never give you enough copies for all your sub's), get the plans to your sub's, call and remind your subs you need a bid, make a materials estimate and call your supply house for a bid on materials, figure equipment rental costs, make a labor estimate, figure what areas are most likely potential trouble spots, figure a factor to cover contingencies, what other factors might influence labor estimates or job costs, call and remind your sub's and suppliers that you REALLY need those bids as soon as possible, call the client and reassure them you're working on it, lose sleep, say your prayers, come up with a number knowing that you miss one thing and you could end up in court or out of business, but include that one thing when the other guy missed it and you likely won't get the bid for being too high.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
It was a rhetorical question. As a consumer I'm gonna assume that a no-response from me during the stated time period (and a little extra for padding) is equivalent to a refusal of the bid. Of course I might reopen negotiations later, but terms would then be reset.The consumer, OTOH, has no indication when a contractor intends to bid vs when they're ignoring the request. About all they can do is keep calling and be a nag.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
It was a rhetorical question. As a consumer I'm gonna assume that a no-response from me during the stated time period (and a little extra for padding) is equivalent to a refusal of the bid. Of course I might reopen negotiations later, but terms would then be reset. The consumer, OTOH, has no indication when a contractor intends to bid vs when they're ignoring the request. About all they can do is keep calling and be a nag.
Get used to it. Phone and communication skills are an essential part of every construction project. Real questions, not rhetorical ones, are the key. When discussing a project with a potential bidder, learn to ask a lot of questions. Is this project up your alley? Do you have a lot on the plate right now? How long do you think it will take to put this bid together? Do you have a crew or work alone? Will you be working other jobs at the same time as this one? Will you fax me the bid, deliver it in person, or just phone me a number?
Then communicate your situation. Let them know you're anxious to know what they think this will cost, you're counting on their bid. Then follow up the initial visit with a friendly phone call saying Thank you again for coming to discuss my project with me, and I'm really looking forward to hearing from you soon regarding your cost to do this project. Sometimes I'll offer to buy their lunch, if they'll meet at lunch to submit the bid.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Yeah, well first you gotta get them to talk to you.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Yeah, well first you gotta get them to talk to you.
I'm sorry, I guess I misunderstood. I thought we were discussing contractors who had showed up to look at your project, and bid it. The stuff I mentioned was stuff you would want to discuss at that initial meeting.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Good advice Huck.I'm in the same situation right now trying to build network of subs. I'm using the failures of my previous encounters to explain my situation. I then explain clearly what I would prefer to happen: written proposal including specs and scope, timeframe for quote, etc. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
holy cow huck,You just made me have flashbacks. I need to go take a break."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
Sorry, maybe I misunderstood - I thought you were a general contractor. If you are a homeowner who is generaling your own project and are frustrated with subs who don't respond - like Blue says, we (contractors) go through this also. Especially when we move to a new area. Usually, over time, we develop a relationship with certain subs who are more responsive. But communication/follow-through is always a problem in this industry. Persistence. And if they promise to be there a certain day or time, always call and remind them, and reiterate their verbal agreement. Always. And I usually conclude with "Thanks, I'll be counting on you to be there."
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 1/15/2008 4:03 pm by Huck
runnerguy
I have been that contractor on a few occasions and I am ashamed of myself when I allow it to happen.
Read the post just before this for a partial explaination.
Sometimes there isn't time between work and family to sit down at 8:00 at night and work something up. Sometimes you know it's going to take 3-4 hours of dedicated time to wrap your mind around the job and my mind doesn't work that well at night when I am tired.
Sometimes I start looking at the job and realize that I should have looked things over more carefully or made better notes. (I should start carrying a camera for 1st meetings.)
Right now I am waiting for a bid from a plumber on a shower, and my bid to the client is on hold. I just made a guess at what the electrican will charge. Or waiting for a material quote.
And some times I just put it off until I am too embrassed to get back to them.
You are gem if you call back contractors and tell them they didn't get the job. I can count HOs on one hand who have called me back in the last 20 years with a refusal.
The industry has a bad record in this area. I have gotten alot of jobs because the HO told me I was the only one who got back to them with a price.
Rich
It's an ADHD thing. Treating your ADHD may help signficantly.
aoc,
I've always had a hard time doing bids.Put them off until the last minute every time.
But the main motivation for me is, I like to eat and so do the kids.The bank likes to get their mortgage money,the truck has to be paid for and don't even talk about gas.
Get where I'm going with this, buddy.
Vince Carbone
Get where I'm going with this, buddy.
yeah ... U found yer cure for that "add" mentioned earlier!
like starvation and living in a cardboard box with a pissed off wife and kids.
unless it's something real complicated ... I wing it.
like I said ... the less I "work" and more I "guess" ...
the better I do.
plus ... it actually gets done that way!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
any motivational things
If you don't submit the bid, you won't get the job.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I don't mind spending time on a bid. I take my time. Think it through clearly. Visualize all the potential problems. I don't charge for my quotes. I figure an accurate quote that doesn't cost me later because I forgot something is worth the time spent.
Dave
I usually tell the customer I will have it in x amount of weeks. then that gives me a motivational deadline.
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
we're a GC firm doing mostly remodeling....
most of the time i give a free consultation, then tell them i will prepare a Proposal for a fee
i also have a good program called GC Works, a template using Claris Works as the base ... the current version is called BuilderWorks ( Synapse software )
i make some basic entries... with MY pricing.. it does the math , writes the estimate, and writes the Proposal
most of our Proposals are accepted and we seldom bid competitvely
getting paid , and having a high percentage of acceptance of our Proposals gives me a lot of incentive to deliver a Proposal when i say i willMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I googled GC Works and didn't turn up much.Do they have a website? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
here you go, Jim.... this is the current version : BuildWorks
http://www.synapsesoftware.com/store.html
GC Works is the older version that i still use... it's based on Claris Works ( the old Mac based spreadsheet program )
BuildWorks is based on MS Excel
i would say that this ( GC Works ) and hiring a part-time bookeeper were the two biggest changes in the office side of my businessMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hi Mike,Happy new year.You mentioned Claris works, Is that a mac based program? I work off a mac here and have been looking for an estimating type program, one that I can customize like excel. How is the builder package you are using in that respect?Thanks,Jason"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
claris works is a mac based multifunction program.. i have version 5.0, which i bought because it creates the templates that my estimating/contracting program builds on
my program is GC Works ( Claris Works / QuickBooks Pro based ).. which has now morphed into BuildWorks ( Excel / QB Pro based )
i run on wndows, not mac
Claris Works is very nice, but i know nothing about their current status
as far as customizing... absolutely.. customize all , some , or nothing
download a trial and see for yourselfMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I noticed that there was a huge price difference between the builder package and sub package. 3k vs $600Which are you using? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
my version is old... but i'm using the "Platinum " level
if i remember, I talked to Jim Ervin.. the originator.. and back then .. you could upgrade from one version to another by paying the difference
i'm probably running the "builder" version... but, as usual, i use about 10% of the features in the program ( sounds familiar , no ? )
give them a call and find out how to get your feet wet without going in over your head
if Jim is still answering the phone.. say Hi !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
thanks - will do"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
aoc
You might want to check out the thread "How do you speed up estimating" 96046.1
Alot of discussion on changing your mindset about office work.
Mike Smith mention getting bid out quickly and regularly. He was also describing a system and knowing his costs.
That is the problems with most of us reluctant bidders. We don't have a system and we don't know our costs, particularly labor.
Rich