I’m about to install four hardwired smoke alarms one on each floor as per my inspector’s requirment.
I thought I’d ask here first whether or not any particular brand or style stands out for anyone here with more experience than I for their reliability, their NONtendency towards false alarm, or any other significant considerations.
Any thoughts or suggestions appreciated-
Thanks!
Replies
Can't think at the moment, national brand, but why do they have to be hard wired? Local code here says they must all sound at the same time. If one
goes off on the lst floor ALL the detectors in the home must sound off. It may be Kidde. They have these units in wireless mode (function). Saved me and my client a fortune in a remodel project. No
running of wires.
Interesting thought ... the wireless idea. I'd have to ask the inspector about that .. he didn't mention the possibility and he's pretty good about that sort of thing. I'll bet that here in Seattle the actual hard-wiring is 'required'. But .. I donno for sure.
My concern is that I have heard over and over again that some of them 'chirp' constantly and 'go off' for no reason WAY too often. I would SO like to avoid that sort of ongoing hassle! That's primarily why I was asking here ... to see if there were any brands that were definitely recommended as 'stable' and not 'glitchy'.
Thanks!
I don't know name brands. My electrician installs some and the security company installs others, but I do have some experience based comments.Chirping is usually in the battery type that have dying batteries in need of replacement.My electrician uses one brand that can be adjusted or reset when it starts chirping.
There are also some hard wired that have a battery too. We see a lot of those because the power often goes out here.Most false alarms are from extreme conditions of some kind.
A lot of dust
Extreme cold
sometimes loud noises jaring dust loose.
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I remember hard wired being required in LA. I think big cities might have stricter codes about this.
If they are hard wired you can't just take battery out or not replace the battery when it gets low. "There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
I just finished installing the smokes in our Habitat house. One in each bedroom and one in the hallway that also had a CO2 detector in it. All hardwired on the bedroom lite circuit.
These smokes had a battery door on the face of the detector that had a push to open and push to shut latch. Very, very easy to change batteries.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
In many parts of the country they're required to be line-powered. The batteries too often get removed or go dead and aren't replaced.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
".......but why does it have to be hard wired?"
Because the BOCCA (Federal) code requires it. A given municipality doesn't necessarily have to conform to the BOCCA code but my guess is that most do. I don't know that the signal has to be hard wired but the power supply does.
Question------Let's go back 5 yrs. New const. with hard wired where
appropriate, if the one in the basement went off, did they ALL go off???
Not in my city that I know of.
The downside of hardwired detectors is that even the best of them will eventually fail due to dust build up over the sensor lense.
I don't know what sort of time frame we're talking about but periodic repalcement should be a requirement..
The first set in my house was 15yrs old and still worked. But...they had started to turn yellow and DW wanted them changed out.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
"The downside of hardwired detectors is that even the best of them will eventually fail due to dust build up over the sensor lense. "
And this does not happen with battery detectors?Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
absolutely!
But they tend to be extremely easy to replace. The down side is dead batteries at the wrong time.
Look, maintinace of a house is required. The whole idea of buy and forget until obvious repair is called for, works on many things but not on smoke detectors..
Well, the hard-wired ones are almost as easy to replace. Twist off, unplug the connector, and install a new one by reversing the process. Time elapsed, < 1 min.
The reason I know this is 'cause of that one pesky room that keeps frying detectors for some unfathomable reason. ;-(
I make it a habit to replace smoke detectors every 5 years or so, regardless. Even if they continue to work properly, the get a bit dingy lookin'.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Good for you! I'll bet that's not done by most families!
repalceing a old one with the same brand is as you say really simple.. however often you can't find the same brand that or they've upgraded or changed it somehow..
I have one that I get a couple of years out of before it starts chirping. Hard wire in my hallway that leads to the main bathroom. I always suspected it was dust.
Frenchy, the detector doesn't fail, as in die from the dust... you can vacuum the dust out. Oughta be done periodically anyway... danged homeowner maintenance.http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
My first detector didn't respond to that treatment. I then went in and tried to clean the detector surface off only to have caused it to ring continuously. In talking with various people that's the normal result of attempts to clean..
No, it's not.http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Holly - I sent you an E-mail.
I thought I told you to quit bugging me! Ha, tonight, or a few days ago? I don't see anything new, and I thought I replied, but you know how that is... I know, prima donna trim carps LOLhttp://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
E mailed a few days ago.
BTW - actually Frenchy is right about smoke detectors getting dirty but everything else he said is just oral flatuation. ;-)
Don't be riffing on my man Frenchy....
It's flatulation by the way....
Or shellac covered....
Hummm... I don't know ya but a word of warning - people are sometimes judged by the company they keep... No worry though - I try and make a point of taking each person as an individual based on their own merit.
I think you are right though... Smoke detectors should be heavily shellaced to protect them from smoke damage and such.... ;-)
But he's gonna show me how to refinish my oak fifty year old oak floors in a DAY!
Yea - shellac makes a great floor finish for bathrooms...
I r-emailed you... never have seen a smoke detector I couldn't clean out without failing.Oh, well, there was that one at a beach rental about 20' up that I had to clean out with a flying broom at 3AM... ya, that one failed<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Hummm... I'm not getting your E-mails. Did you get mine? Even looked in my junk folder. Nothing in there except stuff about body parts enlargment and stuff. :-)
I guess I miss-read you. I thought you were saying they didn't fail from getting dirty.
In my experience, dirt doesn't kill 'em, just temporarily incapacitates them... and it's not even dirt, it's those wascally dust bunnies.I'll try you again.http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
I just sent you an E-mail to your [email protected] mail account - from my "real" E-mail. (not my hotmail). You should feel privileged... :-)
Don't clean it by putting it in the dishwasher
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yep. I think the current recommendation is to replace every 10 years.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
thanks everybody.
No specific recommendations for any particular type or brand as I'd kinda hoped for ... but good to read through the discussion.
thanks again -
n
I'm a firefighter and specialize in fire prevention and public education in my community. Done a fair bit of research into detectors.
Personally I always liked the Firex brand a lot, but they were bought out by Kidde and I haven't had a lot of experience with the latest products by Kidde--although I bought a whole bunch of different ones last fall to evaluate and distribute to the public.
Most alarm issues result from poor placement and poor maintenance. If an alarm needs to be installed near a kitchen or bathroom (and it's best to keep some distance from those areas as much as possible), use a photoelectric type (less prone to going off when you burn a little toast). The more common type is ionization. It's ideal to have both types in the house, as photoelectric are better at detecting a slow burning or smoldering fire, which produces a lot of visible smoke, while ionization will be quicker at picking up a fast-burning fire, like a wastepaper basket.
CO alarms are important, too--you can get combo smoke/CO alarms, but make sure the home has at least one (first priority is the hallway near the bedroom).
Chirping generally means a low battery, as Piffin mentioned.
It's best to get ones with a "hush" button, so the homeowner can silence an accidental alarm (although if the smoke condition doesn't improve after a few minutes the alarm should activate again--just designed to give you enough time to open the windows and air the place out)
Be sure to sit down with the homeowner and make sure they understand how important these things are--countless lives are saved by them every year. Batteries must be changed annually (unless you get the lithium type), they should be kept clean of dust, and they should be tested monthly. After 10 years replace them. And everyone in the house should know the escape plan and practice it once in a while.
Hardwired ones with battery backup are ideal...and definitely interconnected, so that if one downstairs goes off the one in your bedroom goes off.
That's probably more information than you wanted, but hey...this stuff's important. Several thousand people die every year by fire in the U.S., that number would be lower if people took smoke alarms seriously.
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Edited 7/31/2009 10:42 pm ET by Megunticook
Edited 7/31/2009 11:02 pm ET by Megunticook
Edited 7/31/2009 11:10 pm ET by Megunticook
Megunticook's information is spot on... You should use photoelectric detectors within 20 ft of a kitchen or bath and use ionization detectors elsewhere. For the smoke alarms, I just installed several hard wired and battery powered Kidde detectors (power goes out during a fire quite often), which have a ridiculously easy to use pop-out and in battery tray. I'm very happy with them.Also, consider putting a CO detector near every appliance which burns nat gas or propane in the living area of the house. IMHO, an older detector (ie more than 8-10 years) which falses should just be replaced. I've futzed around with them quite a bit, and they always end up getting replaced shortly after I waste too much time futzing with trying to clean them.Ken
Where are getting that?http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Read it somewhere.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
The manual that came with the Kiddes that I have everywhere said that The National Fire Prevention Association and Kiddde recommend replacing this alarm ten years from the date code label.
I am wrong about the smoke alarm failure. In 20 years, and a bunch of houses I haven't had one I couldn't maintain with cleaning. Apparently, I'm smoke alarm lucky, and glad I now know this. I use Firex :http://www.firexsafety.com/homedir/en/ProductsServices/Firex/OnlineServices/FAQ/ReplaceandUpgrade.htmThey, also, recommend a 10 yr replacement.I just found this from the U of KMaintenance is the Key to SafetyMany people have smoke alarms that don’t work. This isn’t because the alarms were defective, but because they were not properly cared for. Like any other piece of electronic equipment, smoke alarms must be maintained properly. Having a smoke alarm that doesn’t work can be a fatal mistake. Take care of your smoke alarms and they will take care of you.The first requirement for smoke alarm care is proper feeding - a smoke alarm will not work if the battery that powers it is dead. You should follow the manufacturer’s directions for changing the batteries in your smoke alarms. If you have a lithium powered 10-year alarm you may need to change the battery only if the alarm fails a test. For most smoke alarms, however, you should change the battery at least once per year. Many people change the battery twice per year, when they change their clocks to and from Daylight Savings Time in the spring and fall. Use good quality alkaline batteries in your smoke alarms, and test all alarms after a new battery has been installed. Most current smoke alarms have low-battery alarms that “chirp” or beep when the alarm battery is low. If the low battery alert sounds, change the battery in the smoke alarm immediately.Testing a smoke alarm is very important. Smoke alarms are delicate electronic devices that operate around the clock, year after year. Sooner or later, some of them break down. The only way to know if a smoke alarm is still working is to test it. To test a smoke alarm, follow these steps: 1. Push the test button on the alarm. (If you can’t reach the alarm, use a broomstick to push the button.)
2. If the alarm sounds, the alarm is OK.
3. If the alarm does not sound, replace the battery and push the test button again.
4. If the alarm still does not work after the battery is replaced, the alarm is defective. Replace it immediately. You should test the smoke alarms in your home at least once per month, or more often if the manufacturer’s directions recommend it.Cleaning your smoke alarms is also important. If the alarm vents or sensor become clogged with dirt and dust the alarm will not work. You should follow the manufacturer’s directions for cleaning each alarm. In most cases you can use a vacuum cleaner to remove dirt and dust. If you will be doing work near a smoke alarm that will produce a lot of dust, such as sanding or installing drywall, cover the alarm with a plastic bag. Remove the bag as soon as you are finished with the work. Never paint a smoke alarm - the paint can clog the vents.Replace a smoke alarm if it fails a test (see above). You should also replace alarms whenever they become ten years old. Like any other electronic device, smoke alarms can fail, and the chance that an alarm will fail increases as the alarm becomes older. There is about a 30 percent chance of alarm failure by the time an alarm is ten years old. Older alarms have even higher chances of failing.http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Hey thank you very much everyone who responded sincerely ... MUCH appreciated.
Megunticook, BillHartman Ken37 Dreamchatcher and others .. some great info that I've written down and will take with me in purchasing the detectors.
I'm in the home stretch of completing a four story, forty foot addition to my own home so I am the HO. The 'problem' may be that one of the floors IS the kitchen .. and I am a little worried about it but I MUST have a smoke detector on that floor so .. RIGHT in the kitchen. I REALLY hate the idea of constantly 'hushing' the Smoke Alarm but .. we'll see I guess.
So .. THANKS AGAIN and this gives me some direction.
Aaron in Seattle
Hard wired here translates to 120v power, interconnected so if one goes off they all go off.
1 per floor.
I've used Firex and Kidde with decent results. As others have said placement is the key to minimizing false alarms.
I find the whole line voltage smoke detector issue somewhat humorous when you consider that a large percnetage of residential fires are caused by faulty electrical wiring -- makes me suspicious as to whether the alarm will have power when needed.
Battery powered units or an integral battery back up always sounded like a good idea to me.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
>>
Hard wired here translates to 120v power, interconnected so if one goes off they all go off.
1 per floor. <<
Here, for new construction we are required one per floor and one in each "sleeping room" and one in the hallway within (maybe 12'?) of each "sleeping room". So, the typical starter home I build will have 4 or 5 smoke detectors. They have to be hard wired together. For remodeling the requirements are less stringent regarding the interconnection.
It's a IRC thing...
The interconnection is just great when you have a defective detector. :-) HOs just love that... :-) for some reason they always go off at 2:00 AM :-)
I agree. Battery back up is the way to go.
In addition to the possible wiring failure you mentioned there is also power outages when people light candles and set fires to cook or keep warm. Sometimes when I am working I will turn off the power to the detectors, pop the battery on the one in the work area and then cover it. With the battery back up I know that the rest of the alarms are still vigilant especially if I wander off before I reenergize the system.
I don't have a specific brand recommendation. My only suggestion is to get units that do NOT have a battery backup. That way when the inevitable false alarm happens you can shut them all down by turning off the breaker.Otherwise you have to run around pulling batteries or hitting the hush button on all of them. If they aren't within your reach then you're dragging a chair or ladder all over the house. Obviously you need a way for the HO to be reminded to turn the breaker back on afterwatrds. If you hook an often used light into the same circuit that should do the trick.(Someone on BT made that last suggestion. I don't remember who it was, or I'd give them credit)
Q: What do you call a fish with no eyes?
A: A fsh.
"I don't remember who it was, or I'd give them credit"Me, but I think that someone else also mentioned it.Some of the units show which unit is alarming. And you only need to hush that one.The fireX are like that they have 2 leds on them. Don't remember the combinations off hand.Several years ago I had a fire in the garage. Smelled it for sometime before I found it. But it was very faint and only smelled it in a room seperated by stairs and hall and closed door from the garage. And I had been drilling some wood and soldering some wire and though that it might have been either the wood dust or the rosin flux that I was smelling. My best guess is that the computer fan drew in enough air to circulate the smell in that room.So I installed a wired alarm, no battery backup, in the basement, garage, and upper hallway/stairway.But when I do some remodeling work next year I think that I will replace then and extent them to the bedrooms and hall by the bedrooms (where there is now a battery smoke).But the MBR has a vaulted shed ceilign with a clearstory wall. And I think that I will get a batteryless one for that location. Although I have the ladders to get to it I don't want to have to be digging it out at 3 AM.And I probably won't extend it to the first floor. Too much work to fish it there and if I put it in the lower hallway, which is the most logical place for it, that is also the bottom of the steps and the smoke would soon be that the upper hall/stairs where there is a smoke.
.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
As I mentioned earlier, I've got a situation where each floor is a room. Four floors -- four rooms. So I have to have a detector in each room. The bottom, entry, room is a kitchen. So, since there is no way around having a sd in the kitchen itself and since even my inspector admits that kitchen detectors go off OFTEN my concern is that every time it goes off I'll be running up FOUR FLOORS to turn off all of them. I wish they could be floor by floor ... one on each floor .. and NOT joined. But that's the code.
I sometimes hate that we cannot choose how we want to do things like this when circumstances would suggest something slightly varying from code. A detector on each separate floor would work fine. In our old house that's what we've lived with for YEARS!
A~
They are not going to arrest you for some strange reason the smoke stops working 5 minutes after the inspector leaves.Another option would be to see if they would accept a temperature rise sensor for that location..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
You are right that they may not arrest me BUT if we were ever to rent the house (or addition) and someone were to be injured and it were related to a set up of the smoke alarms that was changed purposefully by me after having been ok'd I may then be responsible for the injury/death legally. Or .. that's how I understand this sort of thing.
Even if you install them correctly, the later owners can still drag you through court. It's not so much what you do wrong (or contrary to code) as it is how their attorney can make it sound to a jury in court.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Man o man .. 'truer words were never spoken on these boards'.
thanks -
The interconnected smokes I've seen don't require you to separately silence all of them when one goes off -- you just need to silence the one that triggered the alarm.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
"The interconnected smokes I've seen don't require you to separately silence all of them when one goes off -- you just need to silence the one that triggered the alarm."
The ones I had would not stop beeping unless you turned off the power and pulled the batteries of every last one of them.
Q: What's the difference between a girlfriend and a wife?
A: About 45 pounds.
Q: What's the difference between a boyfriend and a husband?
A: About 45 minutes.
"The ones I had would not stop beeping unless you turned off the power and pulled the batteries of every last one of them."DITTODC
Hey ... how about placing this string of floor to floor smoke alarms on a single switch? Leg off of a receptacle to a switch and from there to the first sm ... then on to the rest of them but an easy on/off if they are firing off alarms when you are cooking or if you truly NEED a period when you KNOW that they will not be going off. I doubt there is anything in the codes prohibiting this and it seems better than going to the panel and opening it and switching them off there .. much more convenient.
Anyone see any reason why this couldn't be done?
A~
I'm reasonably confident that code doesn't allow the smokes to be on a switch.But smokes are available with a "silence" feature that turns sensitivity way down for 10-20 minutes, long enough to fry the fish. Some units have an infrared remote so you don't have to climb up to the unit to silence it.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
an infrared remote would be handy as hell.
sure hadn't seen anything like that in my browsing of late. I'll look around some more.
thanks -
Have you seen the smokes that talk to you. You can program your with speech to say "kitchen battery is low" etc. I helped renovate a home for pregnant moms and each smoke had to be voice programed.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
I can picture those in a nuthouse. Patient tells the shrink "The smoke detectors talk to me." The shrink nods knowingly and writes down "auditory hallucinations".
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I'd like a smoke detector that can be turned off if necessary. NOT one that I'm relying on the 'hush' button for 10 - 15 minutes of quiet before it goes 85 db crazy again. Wondering if anyone (who hasn't completely left this thread behind already) knows of a make/model that comes with NO battery back up so it doesn't keep chirping to inform me that the battery is out! I'd like to at least be able to turn it off at the panel and have it be OFF.
Thanks!
The units (don't know the brand) that I installed 6-8 years ago to replace our old hardwired units have no battery backup. I have separate battery-only units on the opposite walls. One unit is PE and the other ionization, but I forget which is which right now.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I found a company, USI Electric, that sells a model that has no battery backup. The woman warned me that some places require battery backup .. I donno .. I'll either check or not. They're pretty cheap and they mail 'em out in a day or two. Think I may go that route. Then the only decision left is whether to run them off of a switched circuit or not. Probably have to 'hide' the switch! Tho perhaps it does not specify 'non-switched circuit' in the code.
A ~
"I found a company, USI Electric, that sells a model that has no battery backup. The woman warned me that some places require battery backup .. I donno .. I'll either check or not. They're pretty cheap and they mail 'em out in a day or two. Think I may go that route. Then the only decision left is whether to run them off of a switched circuit or not. Probably have to 'hide' the switch! Tho perhaps it does not specify 'non-switched circuit' in the code. A ~"In JURISDICTION THAT PROBABLY rules that you must have battery backup and that the residents cannot be able to disable the alarm, this makes no sense at all. Why even put the things in???! The reason fro having them is to save lives.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
That was just a thought in the process of figuring the whole thing out. I called my inspector and he said that an alarm without a battery back-up would not pass. (maybe you didn't read all of the posts?) So .. I'll have the hard-wired set-up w the bat. back-up. But I still may quietly place them on a switch as I will have no room for another circuit in my sub panel and I don't see how a concealed switch a few feet from the panel is any different from a panel breaker -- they are both a switch that will cut off electricity to the alarms.
I'm all caught up now. I was still on the second flight of stairs when you guys got to the roof i guess.I'm curious about th estais. Is there a stairwell, or are the staircases in the living spaces?my concern is one that the codes may not even adress in a single family dwelling unit, but that should be a cconcern for you. That if you have a fire, the chimney effect will take this poace down a lot faster than most. What sort of evac plan do you have? Have you practiced rapelling lately?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hi -- well lemme start by saying that we do have a fully fueled and well maintained chopper on the roof .. so .. if we've got the time to get ourselves to the rooftop we 'should' be ok!
But aside from this fantasy the codes are pretty strongly enforced around here. My tower sticks out like a sore thumb and they were pretty hard on me when initially going over the permitt plans. It has fire-stop external sheathing over the 1/2 inch ply sheathing and then industrial steel siding on top of that. Even on the side that is towards my house, which did NOT by code require firestop I went ahead and used it. The only other siding besides the industrial steal siding is fiber-cement siding... also fireproof. On the inside they required 5/8" drywall all around including ceilings. Also, the stairs from 2 to 3 and 3 to 4 are on the inside. And each floor has a deck with a large sliding window AND a door to it. It is true that from the fourth floor to the large 2nd floor deck is an 18 foot drop, but there are condos just down the street with 30 ft. drops from the to floor to the sidewalk. Maybe i should also have a knotted rope or something like that on each flr near the deck? I DO have a good quality fire extinquisher on each floor.
Lastly, I am literally two blocks from a GREAT firestation. A couple of years ago a little medical emergency resulted in my calling 911 here and the fire dept. medics were here in less than a MINUTE! In addition to this they all know about the tower, have come by a couple of times to 'admire' it .. have climbed to the top and stood and oooooh'd and aaaah'd the views. When they came to the door for the medical situation and I opened it they said, "Hey Tower-guy! What's goin on!?!?!"
So ... as long as the chopper is sittin up there idling .. we feel pretty safe.
A~
Edited 8/11/2009 5:49 pm ET by newbuilder
if i did this right there should be a few tower pics attached(?)
You need to find out what your state/local code requires (read the book) and go with that as a minimum. I'll bet hardwired with battery is required.
I've dealt with smoke alarms in the scores of new houses I've built and had problems with them like twice. Definitely not enough to be trying to figure how to get around sensible safety base code requirements.
I'm glad to hear of how little trouble you've had over the years. I guess I've been listening to the wrong people! I really do have some sense that the "exact" design of smoke alarms installed in "exactly" the way it is 'recommended' is an incredible intrusion into my home. I WOULD like to install them on a switched line and I WOULD like to have to option of turning them off for whatever reason. But I see that you are right that it MUST be a hardwired, battery backed string of alarms, floor by floor with no switch in the line. (If I can turn them off with a breaker why can't I design them to be turned off with a switch!)
Oddly enough my very own inspector assures me that all I have to do is unplug the s.m. as I would do to replace it and pop the battery and that it will NOT then be able to go off or to chirp. But if this is so, and such a hassle, and so much MORE likely to be left that way for a longer period of time DUE to the hassle, why not simply allow non bat back-up alarms and ona switch?
Dealing with beauracracy.
it't not beauracracy... It is a matter of safty.
even if it is a matter of pure safety .. when you are there in the home .. right there .. you should be able to turn the system off. At night while sleeping or when kids are home alone or somesuch situation .. fine. But one or two adults in a very small space during the daytime should not have to be subjected to 85 decibel screaming in their ears in their own home if they don't want to. Should be their choice. Not 'mandated'. JMHO.
Don't argue with me. Argue with your building inspector. I'm just a guy who wants to build homes correctly and save and make an actual living at doing it.
Matt,
No no ... NOT meaning to 'argue' with you! Just frustrated with the stupidity of not being able to decide for ourselves how we arrange our own living-spaces. I'm not even opposed to smoke alarms in the house .. a good idea to be sure .. I just don't like the stories I hear of people spending some of nearly every day or week wrestling with trying to avoid being woken up by them every night for no reason whatsoever. I think that we should be allowed to make intelligent use of them and not have our use of them completely pre-determined by the State. Anyway .. I'm sure you get it.
Thanks -
A~
I can't explain those stories except that probably some of the smokes are installed improperly - or in an uneducated fashion. I think it was my first house where I thought it would be a good idea to have a smoke alarm fairly near the kitchen... :-)
I've got something like 7 smoke alarms in my house and have not had any go off yet. Truth be told we have only lived here 2 months - but my pervious house (10 years) had the same. Only false alarm problem I had was when I used the gas leaf blower to "clean the garage". BTW - here smoke alarms aren't required in a garage, but you gotta wonder where a lot of residential fires start....
Like I said though - I've built scores of houses with the code required smokes. Had only a few problems with a defective unit. And believe me with the whiny customers I get, I find out about all their problems....
I'd say go ahead and do what the inspector wants and then do what you want after all inspections are done. Only problem is that if you get a Darwin award you will be unable to attend the ceremony ;-)
I hear you on all of this and I thank you for it.
One of the things that bugs me is that one of the floors of the tower IS the kitchen. Each floor is only 13 X 18 and that particular floor has a bathroom on it so what's left is the kitchen .. and THAT has to have a smoke detector in it! Even my inspector told me that thos who have put a smoke alarm in their kitchen have told him that they often have 10 or 12 false alarms a MONTH! Since it is law that I have "a smoke alarm on every floor" .. and since each floor of my structure is one room .. I have no choice but to place an alarm right in the kitchen. Nothing I can do about it! So I am looking at a probably false alarm every few days! Not a pretty thing. I'm likely to end up tearing them all out if this really becomes the situation.
A~
So why not put the smoke alarm in the bathroom, sure would be better than the kitchen. Maybe a PE instead of the ionazation type. Be sure to get one with a remote hush feature, cause yer gonna need it.
Bathroom, I'm told, is a terrible idea because hot steam from the shower will trip many smoke alarms.
What do you mean a remote hush feature? I've looked around quite a bit and have never seen anyghitn like that (?)
- thanks
Correct, never put a detector in a bathroom.A good hush feature allows you to hit a button to temporarily silence the alarm. This gives you time to open the doors and windows and clear the place out.Try putting a photoelectric type downstairs, as far from the kitchen range as possible, it should cut down on the false alarms. In my own home, the downstairs is largely an open floor plan, with the range about 35 feet from the smoke detector (I placed it as far away as I could). Burning a little toast or frying fish doesn't set it off--you really have to smoke the place up (I have an exhaust fan over the range which helps). I have a nuisance alarm maybe 2 or 3 times a year. I replaced the PE unit with an ionization a few years ago, as I wanted a combo smoke/carbon monoxide alarm and as far as I've seen those are all ionization type. Still very few accidental alarms (last one I can remember was last winter). Mine is a Firex 12000 model that's no longer made, but Kidde's KN-COSM-IB seems to be similar.From the NFPA's perspective, these rules are designed to reduce the risk to civilians and also to the firefighters who have to rescue them if people don't get out of a building quickly. In rescue situations often the home doesn't have working detectors, and typically that's because somebody pulled the batteries out or didn't change them. So NFPA tries to devise rules to prevent this--hence the rule against switches, for example (image how many people would just leave the whole system off, either by accident or intentionally). Yes, it's intrusive to tell people you must do it a certain way, but there are reasons behind it. (speaking as a firefighter, I'd far rather show up at a burning house at 2am with the family already evacuated and accounted for, than to have to go inside and search for victims, which puts me at far greater risk, not to mention them).It's not unlike child car seats--my 7 year old still has to have a booster seat, which is a hassle and seems ridiculous to me at his age, but I understand that the rule is based on the tragic fact that lots of kids are killed or maimed unecessarily in vehicle accidents.Don't assume you're going to have massive problems with nuisance alarms--install the right products in the right locations and chances are you'll be fine.
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Everyone seems to talk only about the Kidde and the Firex but somehow I ended up with a set of alarms from USI Electric. Here's the one: http://www.monstermarketplace.com/Electronics/Landing378a300.html
I do definitely hear ya on the need for safety where people are lazy and careless.
thanks -
Ok, I stand corrected on the bathroom vs kitchen alarm placement. both locations are less than ideal, but the kitchen is better than a bath.
I have seen an alarm that the remote hush was controled by a TV remote control. I was going to buy a bunch of them and then my needs changed. If I remember correctly they were dual sensors and made by one of the big manufactures. Sorry, but I can't remember who. Will try to dig up the info next week at work if you want.
Newbuilder
The smoke alarm I was refering to was made by First Alert. Dual sensor (PE & ion) with a 10 year battery. It has a "hush" feature that can be operated by most household remotes (or so they say).
I did not buy any of them so I can't offer any type of review. Also in your case I think the dual sensor might work against you in a kitchen situation.
I think you're right that a dual detector might work against me. I DO really like the idea of a hand held remote to hush the alarm though as the ground floor 'studio' portion of the tower has 10 foot ceilings and there's NO way that 'standing on a chair' will allow someone to push that button. Guess I'll have to fashion a hand held pole!
A~
Yea - codes are not one size fits all. They don't work for all situations. The requirement for a Smokie in your kitchen sounds like a real problem. I do things per code 99% of the time. Sometimes common sense has to prevail. Maybe you could find some kind of time delay switch that could turn off the smokes for, say 30 minutes and then automatically come back on.
Off topic Qs - do you have an elevator or is there really 3 flights of stairs? I think you said it was 4 stories... And, are there views from the upper floor? Roof top deck?
Matt,
Yes .. three stories off the ground. Ground floor is two rooms ... then one of those rooms has an identical sized room above it .. and another above that .. and another above that. Forty feet (well .. 39' 8" ) from grade. No .. no elevator. And believe me running up and down those stairs for a tool or to check something has made my legs STRONG. This is a project, I may have mentioned this, that I thought I might 'knock out' in a couple of years. Next month it will be FOUR and counting. I had NO idea what I was getting myself into. It has TOTALLY taken over my life and I am now just working like crazy to get it DONE! My 'challenge' was to do absolutely everything 'with my own two hands', and, so far, I have. But I really do think that I'm going to hire out the drywalling. That should (hopefully!!!) be soon now.
Yeah .. there is a pretty spectacular view from the upper fourth floor deck. See for hundreds of miles. I'm in Seattle, and from the top I can see all the way to Canada. Looking west its the entire range of the Olympic mountains .. Puget Sound .. etc. Looking south the entire range of the Cascades, Lake Washington, etc. Looking south there is a hill a few miles south but I can still see the building tops of downtown and the Space Needle peaking up over the hill. It's quite a stunning sunset view some nights. It all started as a little drawing on a napkin while sitting in a little outdoor cafe in Rambuttri Village, Thailand .. wondering .. "I wonder if I built up high .. if I could capture a view to the West?" Now .. four years and some not so happy neighbors later .. I'm up there every day. Like it to be done now though.
What part of Canada do you see from the window? I can come down and wave to you some clear day.
From the flat roof I see Mt. Baker quite clearly. I count that as 'seeing Canada' .. :)
"From the flat roof I see Mt. Baker quite clearly. I count that as 'seeing Canada' .. :)"
Close enough. David Meiland lives in between us on Friday harbor. He could relay signals.
gimme notice of when you're gonna wave ... I'll get out the binocs .. :]
I look at drywall as the half way point. The finishing takes a lot of time and steps.
I'd say consider not only hiring out the drywall but the paint too. Painting is a lot of hours of labor with little glory involved. If you hired professionals iit might take a crew of 5 a week and a half working full time. So that is 300 man hours for professionals who know exactly what they are doing (theoretically ;-)) and have special spray equipment that you likely won't have. So, the same might take you 400 man hours or 10 weeks working full time. Life is too short...
I'd like to see some pics of your project and the views...
I look at drywall as the half way point.
=========================
I implore you never to say these words to me again
:-)
"Since it is law that I have "a smoke alarm on every floor" .. and since each floor of my structure is one room ."No, there is no "law" that says that you need a smoke on every floor.What the code requires is certain level of performance and safety. In some case the performance is requirements are given directly.For example a residential floor has to support a load of 40 lb/sf live, and 10 dead. It then goes on has a joist table that show sizes that will meet that requirement. But that is not the only type of floor support that is allowed. But in some other cases you might need engineering to show that your system is as strong.Other cases like the smokes the performance level is only implied and the specific performance level is not given. I am not that sure, but but it is possible that the IBC rather than the IRC gives some performance standards. I know that it does have more details on safety performance such as egress routes and alternate protection. For example egress windows are not used on high rise dwellings.Now the code does allow for getting approval for alternate systems that give the same performance and safety levels. Either informal or formal appeals process.As I suggested early find out about using a high temp or rate of of temp rise alarm..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
There IS a 'one on every floor' code here .. at least, those are the exact words that my inspector mouthed to me when I called him the other day and said that I thought that one on each flr in my particular situation was ridiculous. "One on each floor and one in every bedroom". He said that people who have three or four clustered bedrooms on one floor often complain to him about having so many alarms withing a few feet of each other but that "the code is the code and there's no way around it" But then, int he very same phone call he told me that when he's pissed by false alarms in his own home he unscrews the alarm from its base, unplugs the wires and pulls the battery(!)
So .. I'll do it to code ... for now.
A~
Would you read what I wrote.I am not suggesting not to meet the code, but use alternate means.There are lots of things that are commonly done that are not "in the code book", but meet code..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Edited 8/8/2009 9:02 pm by BillHartmann
Ooh, in our town it is a three hundred dollar fine to disable the smoke detector. But as a landlord, I've seen it done several times and all they have given is threats.
In rental situations, when somebody gets hurt, landlords can face thousands of dollars fines and even prison time over disabled smokes
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You are so right. Luckily, in our town the landlord is only responsible for installing it. It is the tenants responsibility to keep it in batteries and reporting if it doesn't work. Of course if it goes to court, anything goes. The deeper the pockets, the more the award.
"There is no law that says you need a smoke detector on every floor."
Oh yes, there is a law that demands that you provide a smoke detector on every floor. The Bocca code not only calls for a smoke detector on every floor but also in each bedroom. I have had to install too many to not know.
" The Bocca code ..."Are you talking about this Bocca.http://local.botw.org/New_York/New_York/Bocca_Restaurant/141792777.htmlAnd I don't know what a restaurant dress code has to do with smoke detectors.https://www.cca-forum.org/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=On+splicing+in+boccaOr Bocca software code.http://www.spoke.com/info/p6HAjVH/JuliaBoccaOr Julia Boccahttp://www.martindale.com/Avv-Renato-Bocca/26999975-lawyer.htmOr the type of law that Renato Bocca practices.Your post makes absolutely no sense.Please show me the bocca law that requires smoke dectors..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Perchance are we talking about BOCA (now ICC)?
Maybe, but ICC does not write law either..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
They write model codes that get adopted as law.
As amended.And as I posted earlier the codes allow alternate methods. And I had spelled all of that out.And even suggested an alternate method, which would be fairly easy to do. But that I did not have any idea of how hard it would get the AHJ to accept it.That is why I made a sarcastic reply when he just came back and said that the smokes was the LAW..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
My insurance company demanded smokes on each floor. They didn't ask for them to be interconnected though.
Edited 8/12/2009 11:14 am ET by sisyphus
No, sorry, it is none of those. BOCA (sorry about the earlier spelling) is a code that principalities can adopt as their own rules that govern building rules within their jurisdiction. I assume BOCA stands for a series of words but don't know what they are. I don't know how extensive the code is, whether it affects just landlords or more. At this point, I don't think it is worth it to me to find the page and paragraph. I just know it is fact, it affects a lot of people directly and indirectly and most of the content that I have run into is just good sense for safety.
Edited 8/12/2009 6:15 pm ET by Tinkerer3
How bout if you could just find this BOCCA code? I can't find any reference to it.http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
"How about if you could just find this BOCCA code?"
Well, for one thing, it is probably BOCA not BOCCA as I had spelled it earlier. That would probably be why you couldn't find it. I am computer dumb so wouldn't know how to find it any how. If I really needed to look it up I would go the Code Enforcement Office at city hall and have them show me. Since I am out of the business now, I think I'll just not do that.
Does anybody still use BOCA?I thought that code was by the ICC codes?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
BOCA has largely been phased out. Alsmost all states have adopted one of the flavors of the International code.
" I don't know how extensive the code is, whether it affects just landlords or more. "That is the point. You don't know if it affects him or not. You don't know what code and AMENDMENTS that the AHJ has adopted.And BOCA is obsolete and and in most places has been replaced with ICC series of codes.However, I was looking for some information on electrical requirements in the Chicago area. And I came across the code for one of the little city in the area. It was still using the 1990 NEC.And as I explained there code also allways for alternate methods that that accomplish the same goals. And methods of apeals. So it is not cut and dried what the "law is"..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
"That is the point."
No, sorry, You've missed the point. You mentioned that there was no law that demanded a smoke detector on every floor. A couple of us have shown you that there were, indeed, laws demanding a smoke detector on every floor. That is the point.
No, I think he meant the Bellydancers Of Color Association
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I understand your annoyance about the switch. The electrical inspector here suggests that they be on the same circuit as the bathroom lights and fan, that way if you turn off the breaker you remember when you have to pee in the dark. I don't see why a switch for the smoke alarms would be such a bad idea if it also controlled some other lights or appliances so that it was not regularly left off.
When I started doing some work for a nearby resort some years ago they didn't have a single functioning hard wired smoke alarm. The guests had destroyed them in frustration at not being able to silence them, as they didn't have access to the panel. I had to convince the building inspector to allow them to use battery operated ones reasoning that although it didn't meet code anything was better than nothing.
I think I would see if I could get Craig Ferguson to do the voice on mine.
Or maybe Scarlett Johannson.
"Have you seen the smokes that talk to you. "
I saw these in HD the other day. I remarked to My Lovely Assistant that, if we got them, we'd have to program them to say
"THIS IS A FALSE ALARM!" LOL!Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
"THIS IS A FALSE ALARM!"
better yet
"SUPPERS READY!"
Yeah, but it seems like I get more false alarms than suppers sometimes. ;-(Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Maybe you're detector's defective.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Well, I've been through several detectors in that room -- they last about a year and then they're wonky. Once they go off, it's only a few days between false alarms. Not a dust issue, since it's new construction, closed off from the rest of the house pretty much, and the heat in that room is radiant floor. Cleanest room in the house. It's got me puzzled. Only thing I can figure is that it's paint fumes or sumthin'. Or maybe fumes from the boiler that vents nearby. (But it's tight construction, and the alarm in the boiler room right below is fine, so I doubt that.)
After the last false alarm, I took it out of the hard-wired loop so it doesn't set the whole house to beeping, and just left it on battery. It's redundant anyway since there's another one on the same floor -- I only installed it 'cause I build a wood-fired oven on the porch outside the room. And if that catches the house on fire, I'll likely notice it before the alarm does!Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Chinese drywall.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Maybe (tho' it was Georgia Pacific - labeled), but there ain't a thing I can do about it now, short of gettin' it a green card! ;-)Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Get the CIA to put a defector detective on it!
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Did you say a "defective detector?"
I believe what he said was a 'defective detector detective'.
"Defective detector detective"
There you go. Ha.
Edited 8/12/2009 10:08 pm ET by Tinkerer3
'Defective ...'
Oops, spelling error. I fixed it. Thanks
Like you I have had good luck cleaning smoke detectors. I think I have only had two or three that I gave up on. Broom abuse etc. (not by me) seems to be a more common cause of early retirement.
Don't know about what kind of dust you have, but it is something that can be cleaned here.
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Can't help much with the brand names. I've only used USI hardwired units with pretty good results -- tho' I've had issues with one location that keeps causing false alarms. (But I think the problem is with the room, not the unit, since several replacement units have had the same issue.)
That said, code here requires hard wired - one on each floor, one in the hall where bedrooms are, and one in each bedroom, IIRC. Note that, since detectors are in bedrooms, they will require an AFCI breaker on the circuit they're on.
Also, some codes require that they NOT be on their own circuit. (Logic is apparently they want you to notice if the power is off to the detector circuit. But that's pretty bogus since all the hard wired units I've used have indicator lights to monitor the power supply.)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
If I had to hard wire I would just run low voltage units into an alarm panel and be done with it.
The Kidde ones I installed are looking cruddy - are their any out there that have a paintable cover?
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
Hey Newbuilder, I see you aren't getting the info you wanted; it's like that a lot around here.
When I bought my house, the first thing I did was to have wired smokes professionally installed.
BTW: I STRONGLY recommend to anyone buying a used home to have this done....you never know what kind of hooky DIY electrical the last owner left in the walls or attic.
My electrician (whom I not only trust but am also related to) chose the units and locations. All detectors are Kiddie brand and although the closest one to the stove is down the hall about 30 feet away, it has regular false alarms for even simple cooking tasks like boiling water (seriously) not to mention my morning bacon. I usually just go shut the detectors off at the circuit panel before attempting to cook (fortunately it is close to the kitchen); although I don't always remember to turn it back on.
Good for me that I have now re-wired about 60% of the house and double checked 99% of the old work. Still, I plan to build a smoke dam at the entrance to the hallway in hopes that it will fix the problem.
I should also mention that once I had a big smokey fire in the backyard and the wind shifted towards the house where I forgot to close the windows. By the time I realized that all the windows were open the house was already filled with smoke - enough to make me cough once or twice. Do you think the detectors went off?
DC
"I usually just go shut the detectors off at the circuit panel before attempting to cook (fortunately it is close to the kitchen); although I don't always remember to turn it back on."Many places require the that the hardwired smokes also have battery backup.And while some areas want them on dedicated circuits I like having them on the master bedroom lights or bathroom lights. Some place that will be noticed if the breaker is off.I don't have that much experience with different brands, but I had to replace some FireX that the HO broke trying to change the batteries.I called tech support to verify the compatability of the new ones with the old units. They also recommended replacing them every 10 years.And the new ones have front load battery compartments so that they can easily be replaced.And they have a temporary hush mode..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
"Many places require the that the hardwired smokes also have battery backup."My smokes do have a battery backup.....but I am not currently utilizing that feature.when I solve the false alarm problem, I will put everything back to operational.In the mean time, I have a twin lab backup system.DC
>> Still, I plan to build a smoke dam at the entrance to the hallway in hopes that it will fix the problem. <<
Maybe you could just tape up a piece of cardboard to see if it works - rather than going to the trouble to rip into sheetrock and all that without knowing what the resulat will be.... Just a thought.
Matt, you sound like my wife with all that sensible talk!For all my skill and intelligence in the field of carpentry, sometimes I still overlook the obvious.I shall try the cardboard today.shame on the missus for not thinking of it first.thanksDC
Your welcome... I think.. ;-)
I read that twice to try and decipher what you had to say but need some clarification...It sounds like you said that the electrician you trust used kiddie units. One of them regularly has false alarms but when you had actuall smoke in the house, no alarms went off.If I understand you right, that is not a stunning recommendation for the alarm brand you used, or for the quality of your level of trust in the installer.What am I missing?
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I am not condemning or advocating Kiddie detectors, just giving my experience with them.As far as knowing how to install electrical, my electrician is very good. I trust his wiring and troubleshooting capabilities 100%.As far as the smoke detectors he chose for my house; maybe he's not so good. But, I would assume he's installed them for many others and hasn't had complaints.Maybe the detectors are junk or maybe I just need to build that smoke dam.Currently my house is "under construction" so the detectors are low on the priority list and will need to wait to be fully dealt with during the punch-list stage.DC
better understood now...The guys here who install as part of the securioty system have more better suggestions for placement because they do that all the time, but the electricians just put them in whereever. The added experience seems to avoid some false alarms, IMO.
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Make sure you run 3 wire! I've made the bonehead mistake of running only 2 wire, and had to use the ground as the common----not smart or safe!!
I edited it. Yes, I left out a couple of not's.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe