As we are finally completing our renovation, one of the last things to do was have the newly installed oak flooring sanded and polyed…
This consists of about 1,100 sq feet of newly installed flooring and about 500 feet of existing flooring to be sanded and re-finished.
Original Timeline: (note we are set to move in a week from the Sunday after the Saturday below).
Saturday–Flooring guy comes in and sands/preps new and old floors for finish
Monday–Finishes prep and applies coat of sealer and 1 coat of Poly
Wednesday–Screens and 2nd coat of Poly
Thursday afternoon–I inspect new flooring after it’s dried to find lines across the finish on all flooring. These lines look to me like tool marks from the sanding equipment. I immediately call flooring guy and request he come right over. He can’t make it Thursday night but wants to come on Friday morning (next day).
Friday–Flooring guy looks at it and says that it won’t be noticeable when furniture and area rugs are put down. I indicate that the painter doesn’t tell me to put a picture over the badly pained part of the wall and ask him to correct the issue. He asks me what I want done. I tell him whatever it takes to fix. He then proceeds to sand finish out of floor with different machine (he thought it was the machine) and re-apply. Does one coat of sealer and one coat of poly.
Saturday afternoon–Tool marks still there, wants to do second coat, I say no. I think 2nd coat will show problem again. He thinks it is the flooring. Great, I tell him to pull it all up since he installed it and get new flooring…Mind you I don’t think its the flooring because the problem is on old and new…anyway we agree to wait until Monday so he can check w/ his supply house (and I can have someone else in to look and give an opinion).
Sunday morning–Guess who obviously isn’t moving? Floor guy comes over w/ friend who is old-timer floor guy and this guy sees the problems and suggests using his equipment instead which is a belt sander and not a drum sander which was used on the previous 2 attempts.
Monday–Re-sand floor (3 times the charm) and apply sealer/ 1 coat Poly.
Tuesday–Eureka! Floor isn’t 100% but lines are all but gone–acceptable
Wednesday–2nd coat of Poly
My question is this: I owe the guy $2,250. He cost me $100 for the cancelled truck rental to move and an extra month of rent at the other house. Do I:
A. Chalk this up to stuff happening, be happy he fixed it, pay him and move on.
B. Hold him accountable for the full amount I am out.
C. Go half on the amount I am out and have him do another coat of Poly for good measure since he reduced the life of the new and existing floors by sanding so much?
D. __________________________
I would appreciate comments from the pros here…I don’t want to be a total hard-
but I also expect some level of proficiency and accountability.
Thanks!
Ed
Replies
IMO. This guy put you out but it sounds like he lost his rear on this job. Even though it was his problem, he stepped up to the plate.
Throw him a bone, pay him and thank him for taking care of the problem.
If you had a crappy floor guy you'd been out much more than $100.
He also missed the move-out date, so he's on the hook for another month at the apartment."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Was the deadline, and the extra month's rent and the truck rental, covered in the contract?
Did he start work when he said he would, per the contract?
You have a contract, right?
Why was the timing so tight that a day or two made a difference?
There was no contract....but before the flaming begins, I am not asking for the legal part of this.I am asking for the "what's right" part of this. The reason there was only a few days difference is that the floors are the last thing I had left..paint is done, tile is done, electrical, plumbing, granite...all done.The only thing after the hardwood finishing was carpet in adjacent rooms .I also didn't mention that carpet and furniture delivery had to get pushed back since floors weren't finished either...Ed
No desire to flame. But no contract affects "what's right" at least partially. If y'all didn't have a meeting of the minds on the urgency of a particular deadline, then it wouldn't be right for you to impose that now and hold him accountable for the domino affect of missing it. You could just as likely hold some prior contractor accountable if they delayed a day or two, which caused the floor guy to start later than expected, etc. Just be/c he's the last guy in line doesn't put the burden on him.My take is that he was responsive, did the work in a timely manner, and should be paid in full.If anyone's at fault for the extra costs you incurred for the delays, it's whoever was planning the job, for not allowing enough float in the job such that just a one or two day delay would have such a significant impact.
I totally get your point...The floor guy understood the urgency. The timing was such because I didn't want other trades trampling on the newly finished floor and potentially damaging it...My concern was the fact that he had to finish it 2 extra times to get it right...this isn't me being difficult because of a scratch in the corner. This defect was evident on the whole floor.Also, I was able to pick the issue up still being there after the 1st coat on the second try at finishing...which leads me to believe they should have seen this the first time.The guy doing the floor has 15 years experience. I expected that they should have picked up something like this immediately. Granted, I have only looked at floors my whole life and this stuck out like a sore thumb. The painters and the carpenter (I got the carp through the floor guy) saw this right away as well.The reason I posted is that I am at odds on this... On one had the guy did come through and make it right from a job standpoint.On the other hand he should have done this right the first time. Hence the conundrum...
> conundrumNo conundrum. He made it right, and in a timely fashion, i.e., no additional delay. Without an agreement on dates, in writing, and for which many people would charge extra as a rush job, I don't see that you have any cause to even be conflicted on this, let alone contemplate a penalty to him.You could have any number of expenses contingent on a move-in date--rent, movers, airline tickets, cruise ship, open heart surgery--and I can't imagine too many subs knowingly accepting responsibility for all that could happen to you in the event of a couple day delay.I have known contractors with penalty clauses, but this was spelled out in great detail in the contract. I'd love to hear how other contractors deal with "drop dead" dates and the extra costs for missing them.
Those are called, "Time is of th eessence" contracts.I refuse them point blank.If I were in commercial work where they are more ccommonly used, I would consider the possibilities of implementation and costss when I bid the job, and would also have it balanced by early comnpletion bnuses written in
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Just because the contract says "time is of the essence" does not mean there are late charges. What is does do is give the client some leverage in court, but he has to prove damages, and prove negligence on the part of the gc.
I am having a branch built on a shopping center pad, and the contract says time is of the essence, and there is a completion date in the aia contract for the week before Thanksgiving. If we're not occupied by then, all work stops until after Jan 2. But there are no late charges in the contract. We tried to write them in, but the gc said he would raise his price by an estimated equivalent amount. I think we were proposing $500/day so he was going to guestimate and add $20,000 as a cushion."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Without late charges or other means to enforce it, a time of the essence clause is worthless
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I agree with the other posters. Unless you had some clause for liquidated damages in your contract, you have no leg to stand on.
The reason I posted is that I am at odds on this... On one had the guy did come through and make it right from a job standpoint.
On the other hand he should have done this right the first time.
Be GRACIOUS. Count your lucky stars he came back time and time again and worked it til they "got it right".
That is all too rare these days.
Suck up the other costs. Pay him his full amount.
ME: a DIY HO who can rarely get a contractor TO my house in the sticks, so I envy that you even get service!
Only dead fish swim with the stream. Author Unknown
He is not responsible for cosstds incurred by tight scheduling. He did the upright thing in continuing followup and redoing it promptly, IMO.
BTW, as I read your acount, my first thought was that he could not have sanded very well to o that amt of floor sanding in one or two days so I was not suprised to see you report machine marks in the finish.
But also, a two caot job WILL telegraph flaws through more than a three coat job, depending on the material used
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Your truck rental and all the problems related to it are just that, yours. You acted on your own to rent the truck so don't try to stick the flooring contractor by withholding any payment. If you feel you're owed something, pay the full amount agreed upon and take it to small claims court if you must. This contractor, which you acknowledged, made good on the floor so that his customer was satisfied with the work done. Sounds to me like he's an honest business person just trying to stay in business.
Withholding payment can sometimes result in serious consequences that you don't foresee. If you've got a contract, then non-payment can result in a lien can being levied on the house until the full amount is paid. Interest gets tacked on as time passes. If this work was done without a contract, there are other means to get some measure of satisfaction.
Friend of mine built an elevated deck for a client who then shorted the final payment by about $1500. Nothing but a verbal agreement in that case so my friend didn't have legal leg to stand on for recovery of the unpaid amount. He's also extremely patient. Six months later, the Client went on a vacation and upon returning home, found his deck laying some 12 feet down below the house with nobody knowing how the supports collapsed under the deck.
Edited 8/1/2007 8:11 pm by woodway
Edited 8/1/2007 8:12 pm by woodway
Edited 8/1/2007 8:14 pm by woodway
i'm missing something here. you had 1100 sf of new flooring that was already installed and another 500 sq ft of old flooring sanded and finished for 2,250.00! what a deal,around here they get 2.50 a foot to sand and 2.50 a foot to finish =8,000.00. i'd pay the guy and try to keep a straight face while doing it.
as far as a extra coat on it i would leave it for now and maybe in 3-4 years have it screened and another coat put on then. larry
hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Here is what you are missing:The job balance is 2,250....the majority of the job was already paid for.Something else I didn't mention is that when the job started, his price to me was off by 1,000. He made a math error in calculating the total price.He didn't start work yet and I saw how he made the mistake so I said no problem because he was honest about it and was up front.My question to all isn't so much "time is of the essence" and all that good stuff but what do the pros consider reasonable....The flooring in question is part of the entry way to the house (steps) and hallway. I couldn't move into the house on time because I couldn't walk in the entry. Downstairs was off limits too because the steps extend to the lower level. My ultimate take on this as the customer is that he should have gotten it right the first time...ok so there was a problem, he corrected it.Now the problem is STILL there so he has to bring someone else in to do it again.I could understand about him doing it the second time and being reasonable about it, which I was. But after 2 failed attempts???Also, if this didn't cost me money it wouldn't be so bad but I am out over $2,000 in rent for the month...
Had you looked at his other work as closely as you looked at yours? Methinks he's one of those people in the trades that either can't see cross grain scratches or doens't find them offensive.
> he should have gotten it right the first timeDo you always get your work right the first time? What happens when you don't?I don't always, though I try. And when I don't, I correct it immediately.
I agree, when I don't do something right, I do it again to make it right.We are talking about 3 refinishes here, not one and he fixed it and everything is fine...In this case it took 3 tries...this type of flooring is run-of-the-mill, nothing special. Also, the issues here aren't me just being difficult, they were obvious to anyone who saw the floors.Let me give another example here...If you had your car fixed twice by a mechanic and the third time it broke, you had to pay money to get it towed and you had to pay money to get from where you were to the mechanic, would it not be unreasonable to ask the mechanic to pay for your expenses?
Pour a cup of coffee. Inhale.
Then relax. Drink some coffee. Smile. And get on with life.
Stuff happens, and when you're a grown up you can't always make people pay you for inconveniences. What if I was in Minneapolis, on my way to the daycare to pick up my kids, and the highway collapsed? Should I sue for the late charge from the daycare? Or do you just say, 'you know, that's a pain in the ####, but overall, it's not a big deal'.
Your flooring guy did get the floor done properly. Sure, you were inconvenienced. But when you're 65, are you going to care? Will it make that big a difference? Will you tell your grandchildren about the time your flooring guy cost you a $100 bucks and a month's rent? Save the sturm und drang for when it's needed.
Not a good analogy there because it is typical for many shops to include loaners and towing for warranted work, but it is not typical for floor finishers to provide housing and moving costs to homeowners while performing the work.
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>Let me give another example here...If you had your car fixed twice by a mechanic and the third time it broke, you had to pay money to get it towed and you had to pay money to get from where you were to the mechanic, would it not be unreasonable to ask the mechanic to pay for your expenses?Towing's not a good analogy because it's a direct function of the repair. You gotta pick an unrelated expense. Modify the example to, "and the third time it broke, I missed my plane...should I ask the mechanic to pay for a replacement flight? And does it matter if it's economy or first class?" Or, "and I had an accident or got a speeding ticket on the way to examine the final coat of poly, so should he pay for that?"And the answer is the same, "No, not without prior agreement."Is there any chance the plumber took an extra day? Or the electrician? Or the framer? Or any other sub? They were all perfect?If you want to place blame, place it with the project manager/general contractor for scheduling things so tight that a coupla days had such a nightmarish effect. Who was the project manager anyway, and what is their culpability? How were things allowed to be scheduled so tight that a single "didn't get it right the first time" by one sub that cost just a few days caused such a nightmare? This nightmare, imo, was caused by bad planning that didn't allow enough room for even a minor delay.
I appreciate all of your responses; what a real eye-opener.Thanks!
Ed
I spent 30 years sanding and finishing floors. I sure enjoyed reading these 34 messages. I liked and agreed with most of the thoughts and mostly would want to reaffirm them. Some other things come to mind such as the cost of materials. 1600' of floor would cost at least 100 bucks a coat. I guess he put on 2 coats 3 times. As far as I know he swallowed his lumps and didn't mention those costs. When some talked about 3 times sanding was using up all the floor, baloney, I always figured 15. Once you get the floor even you don't hardly take off anymore wood. I have never seen a floor sanded too deep in my time except a butcher shop that was warn through not from sanding but from muddy boots with snow, water and mud. We set the nails and sanded below the tongue and groove and it looked good again but it hadn't got there by sanding it to death. The first sanding of finished floor is the finish and the dust in your bag is heavy. Then when sanding the wood the dust is light. If you weigh the dust you will find that you're not taking off enough to even give it any thought. You didn't explain the marks very good so I came to the conclusion they were drum marks. If so when he changed to a belt sander instead of his drum sander he didn't gain much because the belt sander only cuts with the drum too. However by this time he knew he had to be more careful. Yes, he should have been more careful and I'd bet he'll be from now on but none of us are perfect. You might not be able to hold the rest of the world to the perfection that you were expecting. I know what most judges would say. "Was this job done in a shipshape, workmanlike manner? The answer is yes, even though it took him three tries. Think of the kind of world this would be if every flub up would have to be ironed out the way it seems you expect. I wouldn't want to be part of it. Pay him, if you're well heeled, kick in a $100.00 tip and you will both feel better
Just for point of discussion, I have seen floors sanded to within a sixteenth inch of losing the top of the groove and exposing the tongue.But these were hundred year old houses that had settled with the franing heaving and roling to create uneven-ness that had to be sanded out over the years. The excessive sanding was only in small portions of rooms where the high spots got sanded off. Most of the flooring after a hundred years was still ready for several more sandings. These were antique heart pine.
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Another point of discussion, not disagreeing with you. I saw a floor in a 1950's house that had been refinished by a hack. Bad gouges, an obvious ridge where he couldn't get into the corners, and sanded so deep in some places that the nails were shining through."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Pay him. ( the floor guy )
Talk to the GC and take all the monies out of his final. He was the on in charge of the project and the one who was pulling the entire project together in a time frame to meet your needs.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I don't remember seeing any mention here of a GC, which touches on a good point in this question here. A good GC would not schedule things so tight that there is no elbow room for final cleanups and such. For instance, I schedule for nobody but socks on a newly finished floor for a minimum of three days, and preferably a week.The other point is that a GC would have been dealing with the floor guy, not the HO, so all the detail given here suggests that the HO IS the GC, and a GC typically handles the cushion over things like a missed deadline if there was one.My floor guys get bent all out of shape if they are crowded into too short of a time frame, with them being the last ones on the job about half the time. Sometimes finishes cure slowly because of weather or other factors and they have no control over that, so the tiome frame is not a definite to begin with.
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SSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
BE vewwwwy vewwwwwy qwiet - we awe hunting.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
"what do the pros consider reasonable...."I think you have that by now. It was reasonable for him to fix it but not reasonable to expect him to pay associated costs. That is just life.Some of us will occasionally make an offer of some sort of recompense or at least a dinner out as a form of apology, but if it were normal for tradesmen to be expected to cover all accessory costs following any sort of delay, it would cost you three times as much to have the floor done, or there would be no tradesmen doing the work. Delays are a normal part of the renovation process. If I hadn't learned to go with the flow on things like that, I would be in the loony bin by now. Liffe goes on.
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I just don't think you get it. This guy did the right thing. Money is your main issue. Money will get people to do the wrong thing if they convince themselves.
To me it comes down to doing the right thing between two people. And it usually costs both parties above and beyond what a piece of paper says.
He has allready payed above and beyond by getting it right and you just don't see it.
Well you asked a question to fair and reasonable people, and it sounds like you don't like the answers you are getting.
Did you want answers to back up what you plan on doing???
You are going to do what you want to do anyways, so just do it!
You have to live with it, not us.
I dunno.
On the one hand, the guy finally did the job right.
However, you've now sanded off 3 layers of flooring, which if memory serves, is pretty much the max amount you can sand off. so now instead of getting possibly "3x" out of your floors, you'd have to pay for new ones to be put down if you ever want them done again.
It sounds like you actually did have ample time allotted, but due to the multiple retries and delays in getting there, now you're out extra money too.
I suppose you could try to ask nicely to split the diff. in the extra cost and point out that your floors are now down to the "last" bit of wood.
"floors are now down to the "last" bit of wood."I seriously doubt that. The guy didn't take enough off the first time around, then the addional times did little more than take the fine finish back off the top again. Evidence to that point being that in the second sanding, he didn't even remove enough to get rid of machine marks from the first time. That and the fact that there is no way he could have sanded 1600 square feet of floor thoroughly in a day ( or less) each time
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A typical hardwood floor finish isn't perfect. Neither is the paint on the wall, the sheetrock under the paint, the framing, foundation or placement of house on the lot.
Construction isn't a perfect science, but what we strive for is to make it close enough to not be readily noticeable.
When building to those standards each client has a different idea of what readily noticable means. If you are detail oriented, and there's nothing wrong with that, then you need a better quality job than the average guy. If you hire an average finish guy and don't tell him any different you'll get an average job with average results. Tell him up front that you want it perfect with no flaws he'll probably give it to you, at a much higher price.
As it turns out it's too bad there was a lack of communication with regards to this and it turned out to be somewhat lose-lose for you both. Those are the types of jobs that contractors don't make a dime on, and when we don't make money it's no better than not working at all. That's a hard way to make a living.
As a side note, he's right that with a little traffic you won't notice the vast majority of minor sanding marks.
Pay the guy.
Best.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
This post started with the basic question: "What is fair?" Regardless of the legal ramifications and the current legal theories governing contracts between licensed builders and residential consumers there is only one consideration as far as I am concerned. This guy made it as right as he could.
No job is perfect. No contract can cover all the provisions that the parties anticipate. The contact is intended to keep the parties as buyer/seller and not plaintiff and defendant. You think $8500 is a lot for a floor - wait until you see the bill for a legal 'mouthpiece' - it would pale in comparison. Plus the lawyers would see to it in the end you two hated each other and would only be satisfied if you caused lots of emotional pain and suffering.
Before anyone send a message I am lawyer bashing - I am - but I have a right to - I am one.
The guy sounds like a stand up guy in a very difficult and competative business. I would suggest - pay him, have a Miller Lite with him, tell war stories and talk about Michigan football. You never know when you may be necessary friends in the future.
From the gist of you original post and the nature of the question - "What is fair?" I would trend to think you care - a lot - about what is fair in life. That said I suspect you know the 'right' answer to this one.
Good luck, Mike