We’re replacing kitchen cabinets and replacing the vinyl floor with hardwood. I’ve hired a guy that I trust completely to do this, but his plan has me scratching my head. He is going to put the cabinets in first, then lay the hardwood (unfinished). I asked if it wouldn’t be easier to lay the floor first, finish it, then put the cabs on top, but he said the cabinets wouldn’t look right – irregularities/unevenness in the floor would be very apparent. This puzzles me – I know the toe kick can easily be adjusted or scribed, so it’s just the ends of the cabinets he’s worried about – can’t these be scribed? He says ‘everyone’ does it in this order – really?
I feel guilty even asking because I really like & trust this guy, but as they say, “trust but verify”.
Thanks, Bill.
Replies
Bill, not only have I done both ways you described - I've also done it with the cabinets going in on top of a 3/4" plywood footprint shimmed and levelled on top of the sub-floor and then the hardwood installed right around it and butt up to it. The tiny gap between the plywood footprint and the hardwood is 100% covered by the toekick. So there's really no steadfast rule and most of the decision-making is dictated by the specific parameters of the project (i.e. is the existing sub-surface very uneven). All that said, where possible, I'm not a fan of completely finishing a floor and then immediately doing substantial carpentry work right on top of it.
Bill
Aesthetic Renovations
I've done 'em both ways. Installing cabs first is in one way better because there is no new hardwood floor to scratch during installation. Still, I think it best to install floor first,especially if you're over 6'1" or so tall, because cooking/cleaning at that height with a reduced counter height can be less pleasant on your back.
His way is not easier or better either, unless you're sure that you won't ever change your cabinet layout. It's certainly doable, but if your cabinets are parallel to the direction the flooring runs, you'll possibly have a lot of face nails depending on which way the tongues face--you can't get a flooring nailer or a finish gun into every course's tongue. Depending on how out of level the floor is now, his way WOULD possibly save you some trim on the open sides of an end cabinet, which can look awkward otherwise. His way would save some material too, should be slightly less expensive in the long run. You will get a smaller toe kick space, and the countertop height will be lowered by the thickness of the floor, unless he's putting something under all the base cabinets to shim them up. Another possible issue is there could be paintlines, caulklines or trim issues regarding the backsplash area unless you put a taller splash on, shim up the cabs, or put filler stock to match the cabinets on top of them--which you may have to do if you ever want to remove a dishwasher later without removing the countertops (a very big deal. Reason enough not to do the floor this way.) Just make sure you don't need to reconfigure your kitchen at a later date. Most people don't.Did he tell you about all this stuff?
Mad Dog (and others) - thanks for all the input - very useful!
We had a brief, interupted cell phone conv last night so didn't cover all this stuff - he's got enough experience that he's probably considered it all when choosing his favorite method. It's not me vs him - he said this is how he usually does it but would be happy to do floor first then cabs if I prefer.
He hasn't even been to the house yet so hopefully we can sit down tonight and go over the points you've made and make a mutual decision.
Thanks again for all the help! Bill.
Do you have a dishwasher?Edited 1/6/2005 9:56 am ET by Mad Dog
Edited 1/6/2005 9:56 am ET by Mad Dog
Yes, I have a d/w ... but looks like there's plenty of adjustment on the bottom to still have clearance over a thicker floor.
Rough estimate: I'd have to put 70-80 extra square feet of flooring under cabs if I did it 'my way' - he's charging me $8.50/ sq ft for the flooring - installed and finished (my choice of species 'within reason', high quality stuff) - how's that price sound, btw? So I'm 'wasting' about $700 worth of flooring under the cabs ... I suppose the earlier suggestion of building up 3/4 plywood under the cabs would solve that ...
Looking at the layout, there are only a couple spots where the exposed ends of the base cabs hit the floor - is it reall ytough to scribe these to fit well? I don't think my floor is particularly out of whack - it's a relatively new house & well built.
Thanks .... Bill.
Bill,A couple things. Though your dishwasher may seem to have ample adjustment, you need more than the ability to lower it 3/4" because of the angle you'll be trying to pull it up onto the wood floor when removing it. I do about 15 kitchen remodels a year and I think I've only seen one dishwasher that I could get out when adding 1/4" cement board and 3/8" tile to, which is actually less than hardwood in total thickness, so the odds are against you. Of course I don't check everyone's DW; only in situations like this where it matters. Depending on the countertop though, you may be able to raise it enough without breaking anything to help get it out. I have had varied success with that method. What kind of top will it be?Next--the price seems fair if the work is good. If the installation or finish of your hardwood is unsatisfactory then it's a ripoff. The work matters more.If you only finish the hardwood outside the cabs he could give you a break on the price. Are installing a shoe molding after he finishes? That makes his job easier too.
The method that I prefer to use is for the builder to install the cabinet plinths before I start the floor.
I then install the floor, flat sand and trowel fill it -- at which stage it's more or less idiot-proof -- then the builder carries on to finish the entire kitchen. I return to carry out the fine sanding and finish the floor.
My second choice would be for the cabinets to be in place and I've installed and finished where the cabinets have been mirror-finish painted -- protection for these is no more difficult than protecting the finished floor from damage.
The point about moving the cabinets at a later date being made simpler when there's a floor underneath doesn't fly if there is a border detail of any kind -- it only works on a bog-standard layout -- and then only if you don't have to match stain or else you're in for a re-sand anyway.
Incidentally, flooring under a dish-washer is never a good idea because the heat from the dishwasher shrinks the floor, joints open up and then if a hose leaks the water is able to penetrate the flooring where it can do the most damage. Better by far is to use ply in that area and coat it in with the rest of the floor. That way any water leaking at the back of the dishwasher runs out over the surface where, hopefully, it's seen before it damages anything.
IanDG
"bog-standard layout" cabinet plinths"?
Is this really the Queen's English Ian, or are you putting us yanks on?
"bog-standard" -- straight up and down -- no pattern, no flair -- just ordinary.
"plinths" -- what do you call them? -- bases? -- the upstands the height of the toe-kick on which the cabinet 'boxes' sit.
IanDG
Edited 1/7/2005 5:04 pm ET by IanDG
Another aspect, if you are having some sort of furniture-like base cabinets with legs. laying hardwood around the cabinets won't look good and hard. When I had my kitchen tiled around cabinets before, I never like the look under the DW and range. I plan to remodel my kitchen this summer, this time hardwood floor will go in first. imo, fllooring goes in first never go wrong even some flooring money is wasted but it's really nothing compare the total cost of kitchen.
I usually do cabinets first, simply because there is a lot of expensive oak gone to waste if the floor goes first. The one time I did cabinets second was for my brother. He is older and insisted that because he is older I do it his way, I said your supply food and drink I'll do it whatever way you want!
Have a good day
Cliify
let me jump in here and add my two cents..
do the whole floor first, install the cabinets. and then sand and finish the floor. that will allow you to change things around later or replace a damaged cabinets much easier. plus doing the finish sanding after cabinet installation allows you to remove and scratches added when installing the cabinets...
This is one of them situations where half the people you ask will give you one answer and the other half will disagree.
I`m of the flooring goes in first camp. No matter what the finished floor is, I prefer to sit my cabinets on top of it.
Someone mentioned a concern of working atop a newly finished floor installing cabinets. I find it much easier to protect the floor I`m working on than the cabinets I`m working around. I would never take the chance of having wood floors installed, sanded and stained surrounded by newly installed cabinetry.
Consider also the chance of future layout changes.....even minor ones. Might you upgrade from a basic oven model to some high tech Thermodore somewhere down the line? Any chance you might find a desire for a small wine cooler in place of a little used base cabinet? That fridge your using now gonna last forever? When it doesn`t, are you sure you`ll find one extremely close in size to replace it with?
So, in answer to your question...yes, it can be done as your contractor mentions....but no, that is not the way it is ALWAYS done.
One last thought...the $700 dollars you`ll save.....in the grand scheme of budgeting, is this going to break the bank? Are you not including something you`d really like to because you`re $700 short?J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Bill,
Like the other said, it depends... On the house we are doing now, there will be hardwood in the kitchen as well. My hardwood guy is putting hardwood in before the cabinets. Like the others have said, this lets you change the cabinets later and not have to lay new wood or worry about finding wood to match the old stuff. He will do two coats of finish before the cabinets go in and then one more coat after cabs are in to take care of any of the inevitable scratches that will happen. The other thing about having some finish on the wood under the cabinets is there is some additional protection for the hardwood from any moisture.
One thing to consider is that even though you might be saving on the material/labor cost if you don't put the wood under the cabinets, your flooring guy may charge you for the time it takes to cut around all the cabinets. My flooring sub just had a job like this down the street from ours where the general screwed up and had the cabinets set before the floors went in. The flooring sub charged him for the time it took him to cut around the cabs and the peninsula. One more thing to ask your flooring guy is how big the expansion gap along the edges will be. Depending on how stable the species of wood is, the required gap can be a 1/4" to 3/4". That will have to be covered up with trim too so I am not sure how big of a deal the scribing issue is.
As to the price, it depends a lot on where you live. For this job, I am paying $7.10 per sq. ft for select and better white oak, but some subs in town (try to) get as high as $10.50 sq for the same thing.
Good luck,
Dennis
Edited 1/6/2005 11:30 am ET by DJJ
For resale, you can use the "full wood floor" as a selling point, buyer has option of chaning layout without re-doing floor. I don't know, this may be pushing it, but it makes it sound like a more professional/high-end job.
Thats because it is, a more professional high end job.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
word
Word?
If I didn't have a son who uses that all the time, I'd never know that that means "I agree with what you just said"
Cracked me up ....
Bill.
Dang, I thought that slang was so old it's wasn't even slang anymore :)
actually, it's so old i think it's new again ...
Hello, I jumped in the big kitchen RENO myself a few years ago and did all the work myself. This meant gutting the existing kitchen and installing new fir flooring. I also did the finishing myself and I must say that not having any cabbinets to work around was a great relief. I just took xtra care for the new flooring after the fact when my cabinets were beeing installed. Life would have been much trickier for the flooring had my cabinets been there before but ceratinly not insurmountable. In all fairness had the cabinets been ready before the flooring and the installers ready to go, well...
Crpntr5
When I install new cabinets for a kitchen they all sit on a base that I size depending on what the final floor finish will be. Any subfloor irregularities are dealt with when I install the base. After the cabinets are in the flooring contractor lays his floor and finish; this includes where the dishwasher goes and the refrigerator (built in or roll in). I then install the toe kicks (prefinished) and brad nail as high as I can get the nailer. THEN if the homeowner decides five years from now to change the floor the only thing that might get damaged is the toe kick during removal.
Bing
I am building a base, as per your method, for some stock cabinets. It is 2x4s with a 3/4" ply top, totalling 4 1/4" high, for the cabinets to sit upon. As you state, the floor irregularities will be handled during installation of the base, and the cabs will sit on this dead flat and level base.
Since I am making my own base, and it sits on top of the finished floor, I can make the toe-kick dimension anything I want. As mentioned, the height will be 4 1/4", but what is the optimal depth?
Thanks,
Rick
I would suggest running & finishing the floor first, then installing cabinets on top. You didn't ask, but are you sure you want hardwood in a kitchen? A heavy use kitchen is VERY hard on hardwood!
You didn't ask, but are you sure you want hardwood in a kitchen? A heavy use kitchen is VERY hard on hardwood!
That was my very first thought....I didn`t bother attempting to talk him out of it though....I had a hard enough time convincing my wife.
I`ve got several nightmare stories on the subject.
I don`t know his situation, but unless its just him and the Mrs. with a sporadicly used kitchen, he may regret using hardwood.
I love the look myself, but wouldn`t dream of it until the kids were grown and out of the house.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Roger that!!
Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
Update:
Kitchen is nearly done! The floor went in first, wall to wall (baseboard was removed, left 1/2 gap, put baseboard back after finish). before the cabinet work started, they sealed the floor and put on 1 coat of poly - 2 more coats will go on when all the cabinet work is done. Everything just screached to a halt while we wait for the cab supplier to ship the missing (1) and damaged (1) cabs ... then we put in the island countertop and we're done. So far, we have exactly a week into this, including the flooring and cabinet installation. These guys are FLYING, and I'm more than impressed with the quality of everything they've done. They worked Sat & Sun to minimize the disruption on my family. I can't say enough good about these guys.
Install new flooring first. Sand, seal, cover with red rosin and then luan on top except for where the cabs are going (come within an inch of the footprint of the cabs). Install cabs. Do all the rest of the work right up through electrical trim, paint, tile...absolutely everything. Clean. Pick up luan and red rosin, finish the floors, clean again.
If you bring in big drum floor sanders for initial sanding after the cab install, there's a good chance that the cabs will get dinged.
I know it seems like extra work to protect with luan, but after almost 30 years of doing this type of work and all the mistakes, dings and scratches, I can tell you it's more than worth it. It doesn't take that long, and as a contractor, I just store the luan till the next job of where floors need to be protected.
Update:
I finally had a chance for a face to face with the GC this weekend - by the time we got together, he had done a 180 - he talked to his friends (and who knows, maybe he's lurking on this website!) and decided it was best to put the floor in first. He suggests that we install the floor, sand, apply sealer coat, then cabinets, then final finish - sounds good to me.
Re the question about wood in the kitchen: I was nervous about this when we did it in our last house, but my wife and I came away loving the wood floors (lived with them for 10 years). The key is to watch the wear and get them screened and refinished BEFORE your wear through the finish and get water damage. We did that once in 10 years, and the new owners did it before moving in.
Re the added cost of the flooring under the cabinets: he usually uplifts the square footage by 10% on his quotes, but he reduced that by about 1/2, since he can use shorts under the cabinets, so it ends up costing me about the same either way.
The bad news: my wife added a bunch of "while you're here" stuff, so it looks like we're getting hardwood in the hall, on the stairs, and one bedroom too. Grrrrr.
Thanks for all the input ... I'll update when it's done ... Bill.
(BTW, it will be red oak, 3 1/4 inch, about $8/sq ft total cost (except for the stairs ... grrrrr)
"...are you sure you want hardwood in a kitchen? A heavy use kitchen is VERY hard on hardwood!"
While I completely agree with this, my last house had (oak) hardwoods in the kitchen with two very active cooks, two very active retrievers, and many, many friends always in & out.
I'm sure the 3 coats of polyurethane had a lot to do with it, but that floor looked no worse than the floor under the couch when I moved out.
Might be my good luck, but those floors really handled spills, food, muddy boots & paws very well.
It's easy to see why the confusion, and judging by all the responses, even more confusion.
For resale or possible changes to the layout, I agree in putting the floor first. I would also advocate rough sanding the floor before the cabs go in.
However as a floor installer, it is very important that the floor NOT be bound in any way!(i.e putting screws down thru the bottom of cabinets) This would impede the floors ability to change with the seasons.