Hi and thanks for your input!
In a nutshell here is my dilemma, considering having my brother build our new home is that a good idea or not. Assume that he knows what he is doing (he does and has built3 homes in the past) however, he does not do this professionaly. Without going into the long/boring details, he would work on this house fulltime. My wife has some concerns (although I’m not sure I know all of them), but I argue that the $ saved (i.e. he won’t charge us a contractors markup on a $300k-$350 house) is worth any problems we encounter. Am i too optimistic? Is having a family member build our house a major problme waiting to happen?
Replies
"Is having a family member build our house a major problme waiting to happen?"
Depends. How many things are going to go wrong? How's your relationship with your Brother? Will it piss him off if you DON'T let him build the house? How well do the 2 of you resolve problems together? How well do he and your Wife get along?
The fact that he's built 3 houses is good. But how good of a job has he done on those houses? Have you checked them out carefully?
Obviously you don't know how many things are going to go wrong. But there certainly will be some. No one knows how serious they will be, or how much money they're going to cost you. (Or your Brother) Try reading Spec House from Hell to get an idea of just how much can go wrong.
The rest of the questions only you and your Wife can answer. Better think it through first. And definitely talk about how you're going to handle problems/disagreements.
Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted;
Persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot. [Mark Twain]
It's said don't do business with family, friends, co-workers or neighbors. I can personally bear witness to two of those cases being true.
GC
YES!
I built my parents a new home in 95'. Big custom, they waited a few years as I kept putting them off, hoping they would get someone else. Hands down the worst decision I ever made. Relations are still strained. The house is wonderful, and they love it, but I will never look at them the same way.
You could use him in limited capacity. Like as a tiler or rock hanger or insulating. Let him get a piece of the pie and you can make this work.
It is rare when a negotiation on a large item leaves both parties smiling. In fact if he's smiling you'll feel like he's screwing you somehow.
Now if you haven't the hutspah to contract this yourself then maybe you could pay him a consulting fee to walk you thru it... Maybe pay him a salary to contract it rather than him having to snag the crumbs from your subcontractors.
See this is getting deeper by the idea.
Then again you could have a great experience. It all gets down to the dead presidents. If you have a lot of them, it'll work. Provided he's effective. If this is a tight budget affair and he's a putz then don't.
Between his new career you are providing, and the value of the house in your own divorce settlement there is a solution. Good luck. Just remember to talk a lot before it starts and run thru all the financials with him. You are a guy so let me remind you COMMUNICATION IS GOOD.
Personally, I like the idea of "keeping the money within the Family." I have done work for many of my family members and some go well ........ others I don't care to speak to the EVER.
In the projects where things went sour, after many weeks of "replaying the video tape" I came to realize they 1) never treated me as a professional, 2) were looking for a deal for themselves and didn't care what it cost anyone else, 3) thought they were doing me a favor and so expected Additional concideration on each and every task, and 4) treated me as a family member on site and a contractor at family functions. Basically, I became aware of their true colors which I - yes I - had ignored before.
As for the ones with which things went well, all treated me as a professional and were using MY COMPANY as a TRUST COMPONENT of their construction equation. They continue to use me and we have grown closer. ( I even spend vacation time with some.) You AND your wife need to come to a very clear aggreement on this component in the construction equation.
You WILL have disaggreements, even arguements, while the house is being built, but if the THREE of you (you, wife and brother) have a realistic and strong "conflict resolution" pattern already established, go for it!
A few tips:
Don't expect "freebies" just because he is your brother.
Don't expect him not to make a profit - yes profit.
Get as much as you can in writing for EACH of you. No blind siding.
One difficult area to navigate will be when you AND your wife are making decisions that each of you have strong opinions about. Who's direction does your brother take? It WILL come up. Have a method of addressing it from the beginning.
Trust will go a long way in this relationship. Do not abuse it. Respect it.
While proof reading I realized one more thing. ALL of the time while the house is being built, he will be a Contractor. Not your brother. Along with the Client's (your) interest, his interests will include his family, his company, his employees and the government. Don't only accept that, respect it.
You have a major problem waiting to happen, what's worse, there is no way out unless you decide not to build at all. That's my opionion, which is wrong about 50% of the time. Darned if you do, darned if you don't. Someone is getting mad one way or the other unless your'e a real tight family.
Here's my 2 cents...
The fact that you are asking us here tells me that you have serious doubts about it alreaady. Maybe those are planted by your wife - the wise one - or maybe you have underlying reasons to wonder...
You don't have realistice expectations. What makes you think a contractors markup is anywhere near that hig? Is this going to be a two million dollar house?
He doesn't have realistice expectations if he thinks that with three houses under his belt, he can handle a job that big. If he is that good, why does he want to work for you and your wiffe with no hope of profit to compensate for his aggravations.
Jill, on Home Improvements, had some "concerns" occasionally too that Tim never quite understood. Maybe your wife is not doing what you asked us to do, assume that he is good. Maybe she has reasons. Have you ever, in your relationship with her, acted overly optimistic and then run into reality and disappointed her? Has your brother ever failed to do something he said he would, that she knows of.
Regardless of whether he is a family member or not, all these unrealistic expectations are a recipe for disaster or at least for serious confrontations.
Let's put it differently - if he were not your brother, would you hire him as your contractor? It's a business decision. Let him make an estimate and sell it to you objectively. Forget this idea of assuming that he is good and assuming that he will save you money.
What does the bank think of this deal?
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Sorry, I was reading the profit to be 350K
Otherwise, I think I made some valid points - don't assume.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
first thing, I would like to say, is that I agree with many of the replies that I have already seen to your message on the forum. I think that u really need to look at things such as how well do u think you could work with your brother in solving problems ( I can gurantee there will be plenty of problems with any type of building and I think that this should be really thought about). Next, I would like to say that the builder that I work for as done plenty of work on his brother's 100 year old victorian mansion. Although everyone is eager to be as helpful as possible at the beginning of the project, as people get exhausted with the process of building, strains can begin. There's been plenty of times that both parties left unsatisfied. I hate to be one-sided about this, the builder that I work for only works for friends, family, associates. there has never been a time where strains have been so impacting that both parties leave the project vowing never to talk to each other again but strains have been made as the homeowner's get exhausted with the construction process. I think that if u do hire your brother as your builder, you definitely need to have some sort of system where u are involved in the construction process so that you can enable yourself to be knowledge about the problems that arise when building
Hope this is of help. Perhaps, think of hiring another builder to actually run the project and use your brother as an outside consultant. This can come in handy when making tough decisions in what exactly to install and make the project run more smoothly
-CDHEIDEL
Edited 12/27/2002 10:17:21 PM ET by Colin
Sure...you always save money having an amateur do something that a professional would just charge ya money doing!
What could go wrong?
And a relative to boot! Fantastic idea.
Because I'm sure your brother woulda told ya the absolute truth if he actually "lost" any money when he did it for himself.....people always admit their shortcomings.
'Specially when it comes to money and family!
Good luck.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
>>>>"I'm sure your brother woulda told ya the absolute truth if he actually "lost" any money "
Jeff, That kinda reminds me of all the people I know who went to Atlantic City or to Lost Vegas. They all always win something. Nobody ever loses any money. It's so nice of those casino owners to give away all that money and provide free food and entertainment too.
BTW, I don't think I've strayed from the sunject matter in this thread - it's a gamble..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I had, and have a good relationship with my inlaws. I built thier house 11 years ago. I worked a full time job and managed to put in over 2000 man hours in the fifteen months it took to complete (did not include travel time). I took no compensation whatever, and purchased $5000.00 of additional tools and equipment (I wanted it anyway). I projected a cost of $120K, and brought it in for right at $117K. Because of additional "things" they added and contracted themselves, the actual cost was $127K.
Guess who was the goat for the cost overrun?
A lot depends on your family, and your ability to work through problem. the other aspect is how easily you both can forgive and forget past and current trangression. Me, I am pretty easy going and forgiving. I would do it agian, simply because I love building, and I still love them.
Dave
Man, if you are that generous with in-laws...
how do I get related to you? I know how good your kitchen work is. I never finished my office.....
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I won't even rent an apartment to family. As close as I get is my brother now works for me, but we have worked together of and on for years.
Keith, deep statements. Sorry it ended that way. Truly words to think of in the future when these issues come up.
Jeff B. Man you really crack me up. I really enjoy dry sarchastic humor but you really excell at it. DanT
Thanks Dan...I think it more of a "calling".
Will ya try explaining it to my wife for me?
Not trying to ruffle feather here at first...I couldn't tell if the posted was in the business or not. And being....in the business.....I hate when people come in and ask..."Hey, how can I take food off yer tables?".....
If he's a carp/builder and wanted to help out a relative..who the hell an I to say one way or another?
I do know that remodeling/building is one of the most stressful processes going..and sometimes it's best to keep the builder/client relationship on a professional level.
A little bit of "dry humor" I shared with a customer today, yes, I worked this weekend to help fit in a floor so the lady could have her New Yrs party..will grout Monday......a quote from my Dad...."Altzheimers is like meeting new people every day!".
Dad's 73...who an I to argue! Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
I have to wonder about your nickname, because the numbers may be the downfall of this project. If he does not charge the "builders Profit", then what is motivating him to do the job. Are you asking him to build for cost, paying him time plus materials, or something that I have not considered. Is he going to do all the work, or hire subs and just manage a three hundred thousnd dollar job for the fun of it. What happens to his regular job in the meantime. My main concern is that you can only save money when something doesnot get paid for, because it all still has to happen. Stressfull with anybody, only you can say if it will be easier with your brother, I bet not.
Dan
I came away from the experience with a new view on mentally ill people. I have so many stories from the adventure! For example:
- 3/4" fir T&G subfloor, they wanted it wet mopped(I let them do it) before the drywallers started, then told me they were sick to their stomaches when they saw how badly the drywallers had made it all white with drywall dust and mud drips. They got mean about it, I should have covered them with plastic or drops so it would remain clean.
- when we started spraying the trim(laquer)they saw that the subfloor beside the base seemed to shine and not look all white and dusty when it was coated with laquer overspray. We want all the floors sprayed or rolled with laquer.... I say go for it, but when you are so stoned on the fumes, have the sense to call 911.
Clean freaks is an understatement....they are truly bizarre. The grandkids are confined to the kitchen when they go(tile) We don't want to mess up the sweeper pattern on the carpet in the other rooms.
Would Thorazine help this behavior?
We don't want to mess up the sweeper pattern on the carpet in the other rooms.
Are mine the only eyebrows that lifted over that one?.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I sheet you not......she has one of those Bissel sweepers(hand operated, no cord, no batteries) that she sweeps backwards into bed with, sits at her bedside. So when she is sleeping, there are no sweeper marks ANYWHERE in the house. If dad gets outta bed in the middle of the nite to pee, I think it wrecks her world. He's just as bad......really.
I was lucky to get out alive...and NORMAL....well sort of anyway.
LOL, I bet they've got stories to tell at their bridge club about their wild son in law, the slob.
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Not son-in-law...son...I'm blood.
OMG, A sitcom family!
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Sorry for the delay in posts, I was in Florida for a week. I know, you feel bad but realize I needed a break. :-) Aren't parents amazing. You think you finally figured them out and BOOM! they turn into weird people. I do think its age and boredum. My mom is amazingly consistant fortunately. She is a confirmed hypocondriact. (spelling?) She just had her leg arteries ballooned, neck artery replaced. Told me before the surgery she was sure this would cure all her problems. Was home 2 days and said she thinks she is diabetic. I said "man mom that didn't cure you for long huh?" She just wined. I have done work around my moms house for years, not free but cheap. Real cheap. The last time she wanted something done she asked me for a price. Then asked my dad to ask if I could not ask her for anything while I was working as none of the contractors she hired do that. (ie; mom when I get up here could you hand me that hammer real quick, or mom you go any water?) I thought I was saving her money as I didn't need to hire a helper. So I just said maybe its time you hire someone else. She wined but I stuck to it and am glad I did. DanT
Piffin, there are a number of people on this board I would work for free, you being one of them, simply because I could learn more from you and others than I could produce in labor.
My wife and I purchased acerage back then, and my inlaws bought ajoining acerage. DW is the oldest and only daughter of five children, and very close to her mother. I think I have mentioned befor that my mother in law is an atomic bomb survivor. She has cleaned "rich peoples" house for all the years I have known her, and when she wanted a bigger, nicer home so she could have all of family home at one time, how could I say no? To say I and respect this little Japanese lady is an understatement.
I did not say that there were not problems durring the constuction of the house, there were. Nor did I say that I don't get upset or even angry. Those things did happen, but I learned many, many years ago to focus those bad emotions into something constructive instead of more norma destructive reactions.
I had been in the construction trades for nearly 16 years before I started on thier home. I worked as a framer, remodeler, commercial carpenter, and comercial construction superintendent. Much of what i learned through all of my experience was what you guys have been preaching here. Define the scope, communicated, define the schedule, communicate, define expectation, communicate, he contingency plan, communicate, define the budget, and did I say COMMUNICATE!
My FIL as part of his sweat equity in the project was to help with the painting. He could not see the tree for the forest... the job just overwhelmed him. We were nearing completion and the schedule,finances, and nerves were all getting tight. He blew up at me and really peed in my wheaties. Rather than blow back at him, I dug in and primed the whole 2700 sq. ft. first floor, along with the dw touch up and finished coated two of the four bedrooms in forty hours by myself. I also worked forty-eight hours at the utility company that week. FIL hired a painting crew the next week and finished the job in one day for $1500.00. Somehow that figure got added to my cost overrun.
Did it upset me? You bet it did, but it was not worth a family fued.
Can you guess how many times I have been ask, " Hey Dave, if I p.ss you off, will you paint my house?" I stil get a good laugh at myself for that one.
Dave
"Honour thy father and mother, for it is the first great commandment with promise, that you may live long and well upon this earth"
You have learned well the rule of respect for elders that most every culture honours, instinctively. My last note was a quip. In this, I take my hat off to your character..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
"but I argue that the $ saved (i.e. he won't charge us a contractors markup on a $300k-$350 house) is worth any problems we encounter."
IMO, this is the problem. Is he independently wealthy?? I have no problem doing a bit of work for my Mom and doing it for free. But when I roofed her house, I had to charge her because I can't afford to do it for free.
A $300,000 house? And he is going to work on it full time?? So he will be paid, but not get the "mark-up" (read "profit") Profit is the reward for taking risk. There is a lot of risk in a $300,000 house. He is accepting the risk and not receiving any compensation for doing so. And if there is a "loss", is it then out of his wages instead of out of the profit (which was eliminated right up front)?
This is only a good idea if it is structured to include the "contractor's mark-up". You have to deal with each other just as if you had never met before. Presumably you are then using him because you trust him to do what he says he will do with the materials he says he is using at the costs he claims are the costs.
Another day, another tool.
I agree with piffin. I think to keep peace in your family, you should not use your brother as general contractor. Chances are, your relationship with him or your wife would be seriously damaged if you did.