Hello to all,
-Have an occasion to run what I will call a “convenience” gas-line from an outbuilding to a pool area for heating purposes. At the time of this writing; propane, I believe. I am comfortable with my general plumbing skills but am ignorant of contemporary materials and conventions. Running a branch such as this underground…it shouldn’t be black iron should it? I was told that galvanized should only be used for short runs due to flaking, and the same went for copper, and not to mention the lack of protection. (you can tell that I am dating my technology here) I’ve seen a yellow flexible lately, but is that for burial? So so many questions.
So, what is the “right Stuff” these days?
Thanks for your time,
hunts.
Replies
That "yellow stuff" (note the use of the proper technical term) is the only code approved gas line for burial in my area, southern California. It is expensive as only a specially certified installer can operate the special swager used to connect it to the fittings. I inquired at a pro plumbing supply shop and they wouldn't even sell the line to a licensed plumber who was not certified. I wanted to run a gas line from my house to a fire pit, 90 foot run was almost $600!!! I'll just burn logs.
But will they sell you a finished length (i.e. x' of line with the fittings installed) that you can bury yourself ?.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
No, they would not sell it to me or my plumber in any form. Apparently it can only be sold to plumbers who have completed a state or county certification program.Experienced, but still dangerous!
that's bull ####. the certification os to join the piping. finished lengths have nothing to do with know how to build it up. Kalifornia dreaming.
Edited 6/4/2003 4:15:49 AM ET by Wet Head Warrior
I agree. I tried another supply house this past week and they were willing to sell me the made up lengths in any configuration I need. I guess it depends on who ya know!
Experienced, but still dangerous!
They can't sell parts to non-certified persons. But they can sell assemblies. It's a liability thing. Another poster said he was buying Gastite without certs. That supplier just made Gastite's liability sky rocket. I am sure they would not be happy with that.
CSST gas piping is a lot more complicated than copper or black iron. The certification is simply to ensure all installers are doing it correctly.
Glad you found what you needed.
I think what I said was no "special" certification. The supplier that we buy this material from sells to licensed plumbers only. But I know of other suppliers in this area who will sell the same material to the unlicensed........because they're allowed to do so here.
The fact of the matter is that in our immediate locale there are fewer regulations about DIYing jobs than there are in nearby major metropolitan areas. HOs here are permitted to do all manner of work on their own homes. When we work in those more restrictive areas, we too must abide by the existing restrictions.
60 miles from here, you can't legally change out a toilet or a toilet seal for yourself..........and if you get caught doing it, there's a hefty fine. Does this regulation exist because certification is necessary to handle a wax seal? I doubt it. I'll bet the regulation exists because of the local union and the tax assessor's office. And.......in that same city, the HO can't so much as run/add one 6' string of Romex to add an outlet...even in his garage.
And the fact is that in those highly restrictive areas, there are plenty of HDs and/or Lowe's stores. These stores are stocked with and allowed to sell to anyone, the materials for performing the regulated tasks. No one is checked at the counter to see if they have a license or certification to acquire everything in their carts. Nothing is confiscated from them.
We've had to clean up/straighten out plenty of slipshod dangerous crap over the years completed by licensed and certified tradesman. Sometimes we're called in because the problem comes to light because of its apparency, but the original installer won't return the HO's calls, let alone come back and make the remedy. Other times it's because we stumble across the crap during the course of our work. Frequently enough these have been major problems with gas or electrical installs. Lots of roofing blunders, too. And then there's the poorly done window and/or door installs.
Passing a certification class is certainly no guarantee that the holder will perform appropriately on the jobsite. We've found that many times, it's the owner of a business who attended and acquired certification. They present the certificate at the material distributors and so that firm is allowed to purchase materials through their account. BUT they then send out their hirelings to pick up the materials and perform the work. The individual holding certification is back at the office drinking coffee and answering the phone. Or maybe out on the golf course. Hirelings didn't have a clue.
Sometimes the unlicensed and uncertified DIYer is more conscientious about his work than the licensed installer..........because it's his home and family that's in jeopardy if serious mistakes are made. I know some very bright and competent DIYers who wouldn't jeopardize anyone's liability while those holding the certification most certainly would.
I'm not trying to be combative here, just pointing out the way things are……….at least around here. Haven't noticed much difference in these regards either, no matter where I've gone or where I've worked.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I hear you. But a couple of points. First of all I agree DIYers MIGHT be more concientious. But more often I see where they are like a poster recently said he was doing. Running gas lines on top of the ground in PVC on a long term basis.
I am fairly libertarian in this. But Gastite is only to be sold to and installed by certified installers. They can't control who you send out to install it. But they can control who they sell it too. If a supply house sells to non-certified people they are violating their contract with Gastite and Gastite's liability just went up.
This has nothing to do with licensing. I spoke with Gastite yesterday and they are OK with DIYers installing it as long as they are certified. They are legally required to require this. It is not an option they have, nor is it protectionism like some of the other examples you mentioned.
BTW, the union is responsible for more of those restrictive measures than you would imagine.
Ah, yes. The never ending issue of liability. I think liability is usually and all too often determined by which party in any lawsuit has the more clever and convincing attorney.
I've found, as discussed, that frequently certification is an illusion as it concerns reducing liability and I somehow really doubt that it reduces claims of liability. It's another example of smoke and mirrors as it pertains to the real world at large. I think it's more an issue of an attempt to protect oneself (the manufacturer) than it is protection in reality.
Remember the intoxicated junkie who fell from the ladder you left hanging in your garage and then forgot to close the door and lock it? And then he attempted to make his way into your second story bedroom to relieve your wife of her jewelry? ……….and admitted as much to the police when they arrived on the scene to pick him off the ground with a broken leg? Better have some damn good liability insurance cause you're gonna need it when he shows in court with a clever, greedy lawyer who has helped pick out the most sympathetic jury. And then the judge will sit and instruct the jury to render its verdict, not according to what makes common sense, but according to what the law does and does not allow.
Example: Manufacturer allows install by DIYer if certified. DIY guy gets certified and then buys the stuff for all his buddies who install without any further guidance. Said DIYer buddy is either competent or he's not. That manufacturer could easily still find itself held liable.
The product itself may have undergone rigorous testing and certification to allow its manufacture and usage, but you can't test or certify against laziness, exhaustion, stupidity, a 6 pack at the hour of install or the remembrance of all appropriate issues concerning the material and its usage………certified installer or not. It is, I'm afraid, quite that simple……unless you want to live in a society where the "thought police" are positioned on every corner.
Hence the need for gargantuan insurance liability policies which are of course, reflected in the price of the product/material. It's the trickle-down effect in real life.
I think the fact that copper and iron don't require special certification to buy and frequently not even to install per gas lines, for example (depending upon local codes and regulations) is no indication as to how many things the installer (certified or not) can screw up leaving the HO in a dangerous situation. I think it's more an indication of how hard it would be to regulate the purchase and installation of those materials for any intended usage.
The fact that attempts are made to control the sale and usage of some of the newer materials that make it to market is at least to a large degree, if not primarily, an indication as to how frightened these manufacturers and their insurance companies are concerning our litigious society and the justice system as we know it. Ugh.
Last night as I sit here scanning the posts of Breaktime, I had a small tube on a few feet away. On one of the "news" shows appears with a feature about this fella who's in the process of making an affordable home-made version of a Tomahawk missile. He evidently has a website explaining the procedure and the procurement of the necessary parts. Who's responsible if someone makes one of these devices and then injures or kills people with it? The guy showing us how? The TV network for airing it? The parts suppliers for not checking the credentials and intended use of the parts being purchased; or maybe they could be found liable because they didn't give that person a polygraph affirming intended usage prior to selling them the parts?
I simply don't think you can effectively micro-manage any society let alone a global society to that degree……or at least not the one we live in today. Nor do I think any of us care to live in such a society. :-)
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Any links for the cruise-missile website? My neighbor's getting kinda uppity.
Well...maybe I could give that to you, BUT ONLY if you promise to make just the one and aim it ONLY at the indicated target. :-)
I won't be held liable, will I?
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Don't have an answer for you - but great thread title
reagards
What is the right stuff these days? Depends.
The gas company here still buries black pipe for natural gas supplies wrapped with a yellow corrosion protective tape. I think they do this because they want the extra protection that black pipe offers against penetration in the event of contact during subsequent digging.
We install these runs for private residential supplies with Gastite. No special tools necessary for the fittings ($15 each here). Works great. If you'd want some extra protection, you could slide it through a chase of galvanized or PVC, but this will negate some of the time savings of using the material. The Gastite is pretty darn tough stuff on its own. You'll have to be the judge of whether burying it without further protection is sufficient for your application. Either that or your local codes may dictate.
I'd advise you to make certain you don't have any sharp rocks or the like in contact with the piping if you don't stick it in a protective chase. Common sense is a good guide if local codes aren't controlling.
We get ours from the local plumbing supply houses. No questions asked and no special certifications to install.........NW Illinois.
http://www.gastite.com
Forgot......again.........that $15 fitting is the one that incorporates an integral union. Simple fittings are considerably less.
Tryin' to juggle to much stuff simultaneously with two hands and one brain it seems. If you go at this yourself, check your local codes for required depth of burial and do youself a favor by laying a trace wire just below grade (#12 copper) of the trench, so you can locate that pipe easily with a metal detector if you need to know where it is in the future.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 5/28/2003 1:23:56 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 5/28/2003 2:21:32 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 5/28/2003 2:32:30 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 5/28/2003 2:45:05 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
Who is the supplier?
WHW, have to agree with you. I am certified on Wardflex and poly fusion, but only cause it did cost me anything to get them. You still have to be ilcensed around here to to gas line installs. I am not, so I don't!
The black iron pipe is not a problem. In our area the black iron must have a sacrificial annode bonded to it at the riser to the meter or regulator. Trace wire is not required for black iron, but is for any plastic pipe be it for gas or water.
Dave
A local hardware store that I frequent herein PA
There's "locate a rep" link on the site. The rep should be able to guide you to your closest distributor.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
here you can use copper to the regulator on the building in the building it black pipe the last time I asked. The tank had to be 50 ft from any building (fire code)
It will depend on where you live. A simple call to your propane dealer will able to tell you.
Copper is the standard over 95% of the nation(for propane). The yellow stuff is used for areas with high acidity content of the soil. You can easily flare it yourself and check the conections with soapy water. I would advise a second stage regulator since you will have multiple hook-up points.
As it turns out I just came from the potential site, and I was wrong-its natural gas. I know this may change some things, materials, etc. But from what you've spoken to so far seems to have some really good ideas. Thanks.
hunts
Have you checked the local codes yet? In our area the gas company has the final say.
I can buy pre-assembled lengths of "yellow stuff" (polyethylene tubing bonded to 90-degree steel sweeps) from a plumbing supply house as an unlicensed, uncertified civilian. Just bring them a accurate length, stub-up to stub-up. And dig one trench corner a little wide so you can adjust it back or forth a foot or two.
For anti-personnel barbed wire ("razor-" or "concertini-") I could never buy it in a suburban outlet. ("Illegal", "need to be licensed", "no one carries it", etc). But deep in the inner city, they just ask, "how many feet you want?".
Conversely, urban dwellers can get all uppity about gas and electricity and such. Out in the country there is an expectation and allowance for the average person to have a few skills. Take a drive in the country with your measurements in hand. Good Luck.David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Note that plastic gas piping may require (and should have) a wire alongside to assist in locating it. Because is doesn't conduct electricity, an 18-gauge(?) wire is buried with it. My plumbing supply house gives x+5 feet of wire with an x-foot length of plastic gas piping.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Hello peoples;
Well, it seems that the local code calls for a twelve inch burial, and the materials specified are the plastic coated pipe, (I still haven't found out a broadly accepted trade name yet-anyone?) copper, which I find hard to believe actually, (so soft!?!) and black iron. I'm afraid that this just yields more questions.
For example, why would anyone bury, even if it is just to decend through a minimum of soil to make a turn into a house's basement or such structure, black iron? Am I missing some metallurgical common fact? Black Iron isn't like core-10 or something like that is it? Won't mother nature eventually reclaim it into rust?
In any case, after fidgeting around a 'bit at my favorite supply house, I think I am leaning heavily towards using black iron, which I am tool-equipped for, but installing it in a jacket of 2" schedule 40 PVC. Further, I think that unless the digging is unbearable, I'll go deeper that the twelve inch burial.
I would really appreciate some feedback on this from you all, thank you very much thus far.
Hunts
I would guess that black pipe in a 2" pvc would have a faster rust rate with more O2 and condensate and ground water . I would use the copper in the pvc. You could get a roll of copper the length of your run.
On another gas related note, will Wendy`s be bringing back the Chicken Ceasar Pita? I just loved them and now they`re gone.
PS: weren`t you dead a little while back?
The copper in the PVC instead is a good idea, but I thought that the natural gas has a tendency to "erode?" the copper or react to it in some fashion, and the result is a flaking away of the copper that gets transportated to the jettingof the associated appliance. I just cannot remember where I read that...Your thoughts?
I have only insalled for propane ,and use copper from tank to second stage reg . I know that they have been using yellow plastic pipe for NG for years around here. I don't know about NG reacting with copper . The plack pipe should last a long time if sealed in ,but if the seal gets bad then it will be sitting in water .
By the way, If the PVC "jacket" is sealed at both ends, If I am understanding you right, why would the black iron rust at at all?
Yellow coated black iron pipe is called Scotchcoat, for 3M I think, in CT we could only use black iron hard piping for LNG.
Ok....I just did a gas line here in L.A. when the Gas Co. needed to move the meter. What we are required to bury is called "ScotchKote" and is iron with a green epoxy bonded to the outside (http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/manufacturing_industry/corrosion_protection/node_GS34BSHJNMbe/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_FMC1FHZGKWge/gvel_H626FWT9S3gl/theme_us_corrosionprotection_3_0/command_LongDescOutlinkHandler/output_html). I suppose the epoxy is to keep the pipe from rotting. The bummer about it is that, as of about ten years ago, they started making us wrap the joints (which are galvanized) with PVC tape, ostensibly to keep moisture from rotting the fitting.... you can't get that tape to stick tight, especially when you're in a trench on your head and the dirt is sticking to the adhesive.... but that's what we do. The link says that more that 62,000 miles of ScotchKote has been installed....
I would never bury plastic line myself....don't think I could sleep at night wondering when some gardener is going to put a shovel through it. The Gas Company buries plastic line with their high pressure....that's a scary thought.
I'm a GC, not a plumber, but that's what I know...hope I pass the gas test.
-Ben Carnes