I have seen a few framers who like to stick all of their structural headers right up under the top plates, with the cripples underneath, and then one or two on the flat above the RO. It seems to me like this would be the better way of doing things.
For one, the cripples are not structural, so if they crack or split, the structural integrity is not compromised as much. Also, on that same vein, there would be less likelyhood for things to squish down if the cripples has any slight variations in their lengths.
Also, isn’t there more flexibility in the field to make adjustments? I’m sure the framer who was not informed of the mudset, and radiant floor heating the owners decided on after-the-fact when setting the headers for his patio doors wishes he could just knock out the cripples and redo it. rather than make a hundred or so kerfs with the circular saw then get the chisel.
Yet, more often than not, it is not done this way. I was wondering if there is a better reason(s) to do it the conventional way. I’m not out there actually framing them, so there could be something I’m missing.
What do you think?
Edited 11/28/2006 3:44 pm ET by xosder11
Replies
I've done it both ways and prefer to have the header right above the opening as opposed tot he cripples...reasons being mostly having to do with window treatments and the like to be put up by the homeowner long after we are gone.
Plus, any good framer would and will ask what the finish floor is going to be before he does his header layout. It SHOULD be on the plans, but I understand the last minute changes that do occur...that's why you charge a bunch for change orders!!!
knowledge without experience is just information.... Mark Twain
Politicians, like diapers, need to be changed often...and for the same reason. (bumber sticker)
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your right, I was just being hypothetical, but more often than not the owners would add radient floor at the last minute and not understand the vast implications of such a change.
I'm on your side....but I guess that makes too much sense....
probably a hold-over from the days of big, wide, real wood casing....the itty-bitty MDF stuff we see now will nail perfectly well to the cripples, done your way
and no kidding about the saw-kerfed header!...I bet everyone here has done that PITA at least once ;-)
It's not so much about sides. I'm not necessarily arguing that it is better, just that it seems to have it's advantages.
There could easily be something I'm missing. Just wondering what it is.
sorry captain, but I don't charge for change orders, If it ain't built,why charge to change it from the plans? Most prints I get are some generic stuck on a slab 4 to 6 thousand foot wet dreams put together by some 23 yo. "designer" who wouldn' t know proper construction if it bit him. Put that on a solid rock with 20 feet of fall across the house and try to figure what is a change order. Jim
I'm talking about modifying things AFTER I have already built it with all the current information I can get. Your damn right I'm going to charge a change order to someone that wanted a bigger or different location for a window...I don't work for free.knowledge without experience is just information.... Mark Twain
Politicians, like diapers, need to be changed often...and for the same reason. (bumber sticker)
http://www.cobrajem.com
I wouldn't automatically move a header just because of a difference in floor thicknesses. What's going to stand out more to your eye...... going from 8" between the ceiling and top casing to 10" in the next room? Or going from 6'10" in one room to 6'8 in the next? Besides.... what about all your siding courses on the outside of the house? I'd leave it alone unless I was specifically asked to change it.
Now... what was the question again? :)
Oh yeah.... we put the cripples above. Less lumber. Less cutting. Less nails. More room for insulation. And I like to see the jacks in direct contact with the header. However I don't believe that one way is specifically wrong and the other way right. I'm just sharing what I do and why.
I put the headers where they're supposed to go, at the height of the window and door. The cripples go above. I don't worry about "If there's a change, it's easier to fix". If that's the case, then why not frame all openings with bigger headers, "just in case of a change" or "make the openings taller, just in case they want a taller window in".
If I'm on a jobsite and for some strange reason certain windows or doors weren’t picked out, then I will frame the header tight to the plate. I will also make headers 1-2' bigger. That’s no problem. To do it on every header makes no sense at all, just is case there's a change.
I’m framing my friend’s addition right now and he has a 34’ x 35’ garage with a room above and there was only one window specked out on the left gable end. I put another header in on the right side just because I thought it would be a good idea and I thought he would think so. Now when I showed him what I did, he definitely wants a window there.
If the Builders or GC's can't get the right floor height or window and door heights on a house, then something wrong. You shouldn't have to frame bigger or put headers up to the top plates and then pack down later if you have all the information that you need.
How headers are built, to some degree, has to do with the type of clients. If a client has a set of plans that is unlikely to change then it makes sense to frame to the dimensions shown.
However, if the relationship with the client is such that changes are common, then the odds of changes to door heights goes up, and it makes more financial sense to overframe openings. We bend over backwards to make requests happen--it's part of working in our market niche.
For instance, our current clients had 8'6" walls on the main floor of the guest house, and 6'8" doors. When the height was changed to 9' we framed the doors for 6'10" doors. Low and behold the client later changed the door heights to 6'10".
To my eye it looks very noticeable to have the head casing of a door and window at different heights, so it just doesn't happen on our jobs. 2" of extra room is framed into window and door openings for adjustments that always seem to happen.
Not all widows are built the same so we like to have the windows, or at least the actual dimensions and a photo of them or an oddball will screw up the casing heights.
For instance an ugly ars fixed pain Pella was delivered that had a good looking window set inside a frame that is used for operable windows. The window essentially was an operable window pinned closed. There was no way in helll we were going to case around the outer frame, leaving the gasket gap in plain view. To look right we cased to the inner window, which changed the apparent head casing height by about 3".
With interior doors we can make minor adjustments to the installed height and simply trim the bottom of the door as needed. When it comes to exterior doors it's usually much harder to make any adjustments so it becomes the dominant factor in setting heights.
For instance we currently have a Marvin exterior door, going in a room that will have almost an inch of hardibacker and tile on the floor. Having never installed this particular door we don't yet know how low we'll set the threshold in relation to the finished floor surface. Once we figure that out, we'll then set the windows so all the casing lines up. Essentially this stuff would be much more of a hassle if we didn't allow extra room.
In a two story we put the first story headers behind the rim joist.
Otherwise headers are put up tight to the upper plates.
Interior headers are always a doubled 2x with a little extra room or a trippled 2x. The top 2x is solidly attached and the lower is either screwed or attached with a minimum number of gun nails. Two years ago myself and another finish carp were framing interior walls and he poo pooed the idea. After the sheetrock was up, the door heights were changed and it took me 15 minutes to pull the lower 2x header blocks. He spent hours on his doors. The guy signing checks noticed and I had a month worth of brownie points that one day.
We foam all our windows, so having at least 1/2" of room on all sides makes getting a good layer of foam much easier.
Nothing makes me turn on the glare-face more than a carp who frames a window or door too tight or in a way that makes changes difficult. It takes time away from other more important tasks.
:-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
"In a two story we put the first story headers behind the rim joist."
Hunh?
Everything else in you post is how I do it too, but not sure about the above....can ya 'splain it for me?
"In a two story we put the first story headers behind the rim joist."Hunh?Everything else in you post is how I do it too, but not sure about the above....can ya 'splain it for me?
Sure. We are essentially taking the door or window header that would normally be directly under the top plates and putting it on top of the top plates. For the load to be transfered correctly it's easiest to use material the same height as the rim. The header extends over the king studs on either side of the opening.
An insulation advantage is there are no jack studs to steal room from the insulation. A framing advantage is there are no jack studs.
For smaller windows the rim is sometimes simply doubled up over that area. Other times it takes one or two LVLs.
Where floor joists are butting into the rim over an opening, joist hangers have to be used since the header isn't under the top plates. On the sides parallel to the joists it's simply a matter of adding the extra header.
Many times windows on the first and second story are stacked and squash blocks are installed alongside the rim under the jack studs for a better load path between floors. If there's a header in that area there's no need to cut separate squash blocks.
One wall on our current project is mostly windows so instead of breaking up the wall with a number of short headers we run a full-length LVL in place of the rim. Less cutting means faster framing. We had to buy a few extra feet of lvl and a handful of josit hangers, but didn't have to buy rim material for that wall.
The hangers we do use go on quickly because they are sandwiched between the top plate and joist, allowing tecos to be put in without spending time messing with getting them in the right place.
Did that make any sense?
:-)
Edit: I just remembered another great use for this technique.
On second floor additions where we are adding new top plates we essentially add all new headers over existing windows and doors. There is no way, other than tearing out the plaster/drywall, to determine if the original framing would meet modern standards (it usually doesn't), so we can cover those bases easily.
If the existing walls are at all questionable we'll use LVL for all the new rim.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Edited 11/29/2006 12:08 am ET by IdahoDon
Yep..I was wondering about the joist hangers when you have that condition
Kudos to you for advancing the "way it's done"...I bet you'd get more than one old timer and or young whipper-snapper looking at you sideways if you suggested any other way than what the guy who taught them did it ;-)
LVLs and TJIs are really changing the ways we can put buildings together!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I'd like to see more of the headers that are pre-built to the wall thickness with a middle layer of the header sandwich consisting of rigid insulation. I'm a big fan of that product, but have yet to get it into a project. Has anyone used those? Probably expensive and a PIA to cut right?
I haven't seen any of the pre-assembled headers with foam in the middle, but it sounds good.
However, we'd have to find something new to do with our leftover LVLs. :-)
Another advantage to puting headers up high, is that they can be insulated with ridgid foam on the inside of the wall without affecting the nailing of window or door trim.
For instance we have some headers that were spec'd for a pair of 2x's. We can substitute a single lvl and fill the rest of the header space with 3-1/2" of ridgid foam.
I can see how the laminated header eliminated the wood-to-wood contact above the doors and windows altogether. Pretty slick.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
man it sure seams to be an area thing....
what do you fellow BC guys see.. most what I see around here is header up under the plate. I prefer it that way myself.