Considering putting in a heat pump. My HVAC guy is suggesting an American Standard
either the Heritage 18 or Heritage 15. Installed cost for the Heritage 15 with a 2/4Tee Variable-Speed Air Handler is slightly under $10,000. There is some ductwork involved (have to add a branch off the main trunk). And it will be an attic install. The price for the Heritage 18 would be about $1000.00 more. Are these prices in line? Is it worth it to get the more expensive heat pump? I live in SW Ohio.
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
The "She Build" initiative is empowering women in Seattle, WA by ensuring they have safe, healthy homes.
Featured Video
How to Install Exterior Window TrimHighlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
bump
I just had a 3 ton carrier performance series hybid heat pump/ gas system installed for $6,500.00. 10 year parts and labor warrenty. No idea how that compares but maybe it helps.
I paid about $11K for a Carrier 17 seer puron 3 ton hybrid/ 97% gas unit with some ductwork and a lineset move.
It was about $3K more expensive than the least efficient system I could purchase.
My heat/cool bill has consistantly been $100+ less per month - sometimes closer to $200.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
Have you considered doing a little study and buying maybe $1K worth of special tools (vac pump, gauges, brazing torch) and doing a DIY install. No EPA license needed for R410A you know.
Or, consider a package unit since in the attic, no license or special tools for that.
You can buy a Goodman system with a scroll compressor that is as good as anything thermodynamically and reliability wise* for under $3K.
You can spend a lot of time on research and install for $7K tax free!
*if you add a few dollars (literally $10-$20) worth of cabinet reinforncement for handling.
PS: You have a backhoe? If not, you can buy a used backhoe and DIY a ground source HP that will outperform any commercial air-air unit for under $10K and have the backhoe to keep afterwards!!!
Edited 3/4/2009 10:17 pm ET by junkhound
Edited 3/4/2009 10:18 pm ET by junkhound
Should probably also be checking on Geothermal systems. 30% tax credit without any limit on the credit amount except your tax liability. May or may not be able to carry forward any disallowed credit. I haven't heard.
I live in Central MD with a similar climate. 5 years ago, I helped a guy put in a Heritage 12 with VS air handler. LOVE the unit, so I would highly recommend the Am Standard. I did A LOT of homework before settling on the unit.
My price (installed) was $3600-including a little sheet metal work and the new air handler and new resistance coils. I got various prices from other contractors around 5-6K. Realizing I got a good deal on the side, and comparing your price to the prices I got, I think your prices are a little high. I realize the equipment cost will be higher due to higher efficiency models, but I don't think that much higher.
But I'm just a guy on the net comparing 5 year old prices from 1000 miles away. I would keep looking and get a better idea of if a better deal can be had locally.
What Junkhound suggested might also be a sound idea. The more I study these things, the more I think I could do some of the tasks. And the more local HVAC techs I meet, the more I KNOW I can do what they do. I know that's a broad brush, but I have yet to be impressed by too many of the local HVAC guys.
"Is it worth it to get a more expensive heat pump?". In my opinion- not always. I recently remodeled, and as part of that wrapped the house with housewrap and replaced all of my windows and doors. I have also spent some time in the attic sealing holes in the top plate with spray foam. If I had $1000 to spend, I would spend it on improving the home's envelope before I would buy a more efficient HP. The noticeable improvements (drafts, noise, etc) I gained from fixing the envelope, far outweigh any other gains I would get from stepping up the HP.
Edited 3/5/2009 11:00 am ET by frontiercc2
Heat pumps arent really common out here in CA but I saw the Water Furnace guys at a builders show recently and their stuff looked good to me.
Has anyone here had any experiences with the Water Furnace brand?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
They sell them here by the truckload. I live in West Central Illinois the place that radio host Doug Rye (the king of caulk and talk) calls the geo thermal capital of the world. I'm going to guess 60% plus of new homes in this area get geo therm.
The real issue with them (read all geothermal) is do you have enough land to excavate to bury the pipe or do you have to drill wells? The other option if you have a pond/lake of sufficient depth is to run the loops in the lake bottom. Drilling wells is major dollars.
In a place like CA, make double sure you get a quote on the geo thermal plus the add on water heater. You use the heat taken out of your house to heat your water for "free". My SIL was cheap and fought to keep the air off until she moved to a geo therm house. When she first moved in she kept the air off the first month and her bill with three teens was high high high because of the electric water heater. I told her to turn on the air and her bill went DOWN.
The side bonus is if you do get the occasional cold temps, you simply hit the switch to reverse the process and you get heat with the same system. If I understand correctly, many CA home have what we would call wall mounted space heaters for those days. If thats your case, you can recover that space and eliminate that ugly thing.
As I said too, Geo therm is subject to the 30% rebate and is not limited to a certain dollar limit. The only limit would be your amount of total tax due and even then they may let you carry it forward to next year.
Do you mean they sell geo-thermal heat pumps by the truck load or the water furnace brand specifically? Because I saw them at a show I was wondering if they were any good?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Our largest dealer in the area is water furnace. There is nothing wrong with that brand at all. One of the best to my knowledge. As I understand it, most all of them have about a 15 year life. I'm sure the water furnace dealer here has done installs going back 20 years. The issue around here is not about wanting one the only issue is about the price difference.
The price diff between geothermal and say a gass furnace or the price between Waterfurnace and other brands of geothermal heat pumps?
Here in CA I don't know locally what my choices are besides Water Furnace...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Water Furnance is just a brand. Just like Chevy, Ford, GMC. Prices on geothermal are not that much different among brands just like the prices on trucks aren't that much different among Chevy, Ford and GMC.
The price differential comes in when comparing air to air heat pumps to geo or gas furnace to geo.
A normal forced air system around here with a gas furnace and central air will be around $5000. Geo will run you three times that.
But on the other side of the coin, geo is supposedly 300% efficient versus the best gas being 95% efficient.
Remember too that in your area where you will be using geo for cooling most of the time, you get "free" not water if you put in the heat recovery system. The heat you take out of your house runs through a coil in a water heater and heats your water before it goes through the ground loop to get cooled off the rest of the way to return to your air handler and cool you house again.
Edited 3/27/2009 10:04 am ET by cussnu2
Based upon my dated experience, some brands differentiate themselves by certain design characteristics.
I was convinced to buy a Water Furnance 15 years ago based upon it's "propriatary designed" rifled and I guess, corrorgated interior of the heat exchanger coil.
I was having trouble with an inproperly installed commercial Carrier unit prior having it's coil innards plug up with iron bacteria and gunk. So this one sounded good at the time.
But there must be some form of characteristic comparison of all of the current manufacturers someplace. Like in their dealers file cabinets, probably.
like i said though, its just a brand, people will swear ford is junk too and you only want to buy a chevy so its a fairly similar argument. he has to do the comparisons on features himself just like he would if he were buying a truck.
Water furnace may be the upper end but the real decision is geo, air to air or gas/electric/oil.
I'm guessing with an avg high of 66 and low of 52 and coldest monthly avg being 44, he is going to find out if he runs the numbers that geo is going to take too long to pay back versus the highest efficiency air to air.
The only way to do it is to get a bid on geo and high eff air -to-air and then get projections on the savings diff and find out if it takes you longer than the 15 year avg life expectancy to recoup your diff. both costs would have to be net of any tax rebates you could get.
Opps! Only saw CA not Oakland. I guess you probably wouldn't be on air conditioning that much.
You may want to do some additional research on paybacks in you area with it being so mild. You might find that going with a super efficient air to air would be best. These work very well to provide heat especially in the range that oakland has for its lows.
Air to air loses efficiency the lower the air temp goes so in my area where we spend weeks in the teens, geo thermal saves a ton but I don't know what the savings would be compared to air to air if my lows were consistently in the 40's like yours.
Go to DougRye.com. He is the worlds biggest supporter of Geo Thermal but he will tell you the truth about which would make the most sense for your climate. You can probably find his email on there or he even gives out his phone #. Just tell him your sq ft, your average high and low temps and that you are looking at Geo, Air to Air heat pumps, or gas.
Hey Dan,with your heat loss, you'd never, ever, ever, ever pay back the additional cost of any actual geothermal exchange system.An air to water heat pump.... maybe. But that's a lot more "experimental".-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
<<with your heat loss, you'd never, ever, ever, ever pay back the additional cost of any actual geothermal exchange system.>>
Thats what I suspect too unless he has a super big honking house that leaks like an open window. But in that case he'd be better off sealing the house
I actually ran the heat loss on his house ;) More accurately, its his lack of degree days that works against payback. With his heat loss in a very cold climate... maybe. But I suspect geo xchange systems are not popular in his area simply because heating isn't that big of a deal economically in his area.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Its not so much heating, its what we would call taking the chill off.
Honestly, with 70 degree days and 40 degree nights we wouldn't likely have the heat on at all. just open the curtains in the day and close them at night.
heating is what you need when you step outside and its takes your breath away.
Around here our minimum temps can be -10 and our max 110. We have what they call weather and seasons. Geo works great both winter and summer here and saves people bucketloads of money. 4,000-5,000 sq ft houses with less then $200 average utilities Mine at 3600 sqft runs 300 with air to air and natural gas backup Doesn't take long at $1200 per year to pay back the diff.
why do you have a gas backup at all?-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Because the cost per therm is cheaper than what my electric is when I get down in the teens. My system goes to resistance heat around 10 - 15 degrees and honestly its probably a push between 15-20. We are only talking about a 12 seer air to air unit. Aside from that, I just don't like the constant background noise either so I switch when the temps hit the teens.
ah, gotcha. I thought you were using a geo tied unit.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
No, not in mine. I got in just before geo hit here with a vengence about 15 years ago. Since then, 60-70% go geo here on new construction. Cheap in the winter free hot water in the summer. But I agree they probably have limited application in a place like oakland that doesn't really have weather.