So, in the garage whose foundation I’m talking about in another thread will be a 480 sq. ft. efficiency apartment. I just did the heat calcs, and came up with 11,000 Btu/hr at -20. That’s well within the range of nearly any domestic water heater, and a direct vent tankless model is within the budget. But that leaves me a few questions. First off, these things are designed to put out water that’s maybe 130F, a bit lower than is typically run through a radiator. Has anyone ever done this sort of installation? If so, did you have to run more baseboard to accommodate the lower temperatures?
Any other ideas on how to heat the place? Maybe a Monitor? Any problem getting the kerosene up to the second floor with them?
Thanks,
Andy
“Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.” Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
“Get off your dead
and on your dying feet.” Mom
“Everything not forbidden is compulsory.” T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Replies
Doh! Poking around the 'net, I found wall furnaces. The Rinnais look awesome, easy to install, and efficient. Anyone use them?
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
I've seen them in a few homes. They typically are small units, where the builder is trying to save space. I haven't heard of any issues.
Long time ago when I was renting, just out of college. We had some in a rental. They heated up and started getting red hot. We thought that was bad. So we lived without heat for a winter.
My buddy upstate NY (read cold), similar situation just installed a Miller brand wall furnace. These units originally designed for dbl. wide type homes. LP fuel, direct vent, great unit based on 1 heating season.
Andy, check out the Empire brand propane heaters too. They are just like the Rinnais, but a bit cheaper. They will run without electricity - just no fan without power.
It's a direct vent wall unit. Pretty simple. Bought ours from our oil dealer, but I think they are readily available anywhere. I did a dealer search for this area and found about a dozen dealers within twenty-five miles.
i have a 700sf unit... pretty well sealed... that with a 1500w small 8" sq portable heater with a fan... it will toast you... you have to keep turn'n it down...
it's all open space... but i'm amazed how warm it stays... lows around here might get into the teens but mostly lows in the 20's...
I've experienced this before in a small space... a computer... a refrigerator... and some lights... it just doesn't seem to take alot more to heat it...
P
If you have gas available, I'd forget the plumbing and install a wall unit like a Rinnai. We've got three up at a condo in Vermont and they are very reliable, efficient, and heat the place up quickly. Hauling kerosine will get old fast. The only drawback to the Rinnai is that it needs to be plugged into A.C. to run so . . . no heat during a power outage.
I was looking at Rinnais on line last night. They seem great - 84% efficient, run on propane, tiny penetration in the building envelope. I'm thinking they may be the way to go. I'm vaguely concerned about circulation. This is a small space - less than 500 sq. ft. - and the heater would go on the north end. Seems like that should be okay. What's your experience with how far the Rinnai heaters push warm air?Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
I know many people with them including my sister who bought one after I told her. No complaints to date from anyone I know using them. Most have been in use for over 8 years in Northern Maine, hers is in the NE kingdom of VT.
thanks.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Andy, I heat my house with two propane-fired space heaters, one Rennai and one Monitor brand. One on each floor of a 24x36 raised ranch. My family's vacation/rental cabin has two K1 fired Monitors, one on each 24x32' level. They have their plusses and minuses.
Definitely go with propane or NG, not an oil, for less maintenance and to avoid an electric pump for the oil. Rennai is now a more reliable brand than Monitor. They make some noise on start-up so they aren't great in rooms used for sleeping, but they do heat a surprisingly large area. They blow air around, not so great if you have a hairy cat like us, but not so bad otherwise. Our bedrooms and bathroom have electric resistance back-up heat because the Rennai doesn't heat through doors very well.
We've got one Rinnai in each bedroom and one (a bit larger physically but don't know the BTU) in the living/dining area for a total of three.
I've never noticed cold or hot areas in any of the rooms. The living/dining room is probably 14' X 28' and the heater is at one end by a slider. I'd use one again in a heartbeat, in fact I'm planning on using one in a small apartment over a garage.There's a place in Maine called http://www.alsheating.com/ that has lots of info on the Rinnai heaters.If you're really worried about spreading the heat around just put up a ceiling fan.After reading the last entry, i would have to disagree about the noise in a bedroom. I can't tell you which model Rinnai heaters we have in the bedrooms but they are very quiet and I'm a fairly light sleeper.
Edited 3/3/2009 5:55 pm ET by fingers
Thanks to both of you for the input. And I've been on Al's Heating website. I think I want to buy from him just because I like supporting eccentric, crotchety New Englanders. In fact, when I grow up, that's what I want to be. I'm pretty much settled on a Rinnai LP heater. The cost isn't bad, I can pick it up at Al's on my way to my buddy's cabin in Maine this summer, and getting propane up there is a piece of cake.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Andy, before I bought mine I talked to Al. I also like crotchety old New Englanders, and I am not easily offended. Al offended me, insulted my wife, and all in all was a complete jerk. He knows his stuff, but you might want to have a phone conversation with him before you buy from him. I paid more to get my unit from a place with reasonable customer service.
Thanks for that. You might have just sent me to a local dealer. It might be worth having someone else own the installation, anyway.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Report back to us when you get it done to see how it's worked out. Good luck have fun!
>>I think I want to buy from him just because I like supporting eccentric, crotchety New Englanders. In fact, when I grow up, that's what I want to be.Good to see a man well on his way to reaching his dream! <G,D&R!>Be sure that when someone asks you "Lived here all your life?" your answer is "Not yet!"
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
i would have to disagree about the noise in a bedroom
Interesting--you're lucky. My buddy installed a Rennai in his small one-bedroom apartment and said he's glad it's not in his bedroom. I also worked on another one-bedroom place a while back with a new Rennai that made some noise. So of the six units I have experience with, they all make a little noise. I should have your installer come check these out I guess!
Rinnai's are excellent, and probably some others of its type are just as good. (Empire is the only other brand that comes to mind immediately)
You might also consider a direct vent gas feestanding stove or built-in fireplace, the kind where you see the flames curling up thru the fake logs. You can buy them with small enough capacity to more nearly match your calculated heat load, and this is important for comfort as you probably realize since you went to the trouble to do a load calc. Short-cycling of over-sized equipment wears out the equipment prematurely and degrades comfort by causing temperature swings.
The DV unit is not quite as efficient (83% vs 90%+), but the good part is they don't need electricity to run. So, you can still heat the place even when the power is out. Some models have blowers, but the blower does not need to run in order for the unit to do its thing. They're pretty to look at, too.
As for heating the space effectively from just one heat source, we heat our 1150 sq. ft. house with a Vermont Castings 30,000 BTU freestanding stove that sits in the NW corner of the house, and have done so for the past 12 winters. The main living spaces stay very comfortable, but the bedrooms tend to be cooler, which is just what we prefer. We sometimes turn on toekick electric heater in the master bathroom for a half-hour or so in the coldest weather. Our winter design temperature here (Idaho Falls, ID) is -6 degrees.
Interestingly, you calculated your heat load using -20 degrees, but ASHRAE lists Waterbury CT as having the coldest winter design temp. in the state at 2 degrees. Of course, Waterbury, and probably wherever you are can get colder than 2 degrees, but only 1% of the hours of the year. So, your load of 11,000 BTU's is generous, to say the least. (Typical load calcs, by the way, do not give credit to other miscellaneous sources of heat, like lights, electronic equipment, appliances, people, etc. My point is that a 15,000 BTU heater, even after de-rating for its 83% efficiency, would be a very adequate heat source for the little apartment.)___________________________________________________________________
Jasmine at the home-improvement store:
Jasmine: I need a heater.
Salesman: I see. How many BTU's did you have in mind, ma'am?
J: BTU? What's that?
S: It's a measurement of heat capacity, so we can decide how big a heater you need.
J: I don't know nothin' about no B.T.U. All I know is I need to heat this B.U.T, and it's the size of a T.U.B.
Thanks for your input. Yeah, -20 is colder than the low in Waterbury, which is about 15 miles from me. But there are several nights just about every year that push -10. You're right - I'm probably oversizing. It's that same lack of confidence in the numbers that a lot of people suffer from. I like the idea of the gas fireplace, as it would add some ambiance that would help to justify the outrageous rent I intend to charge. Damn, I love being a capitalist! But I'm not sure there's room for such a unit. That's one of the things I like about the wall heaters.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Wall heaters and stoves take about the same space side-to-side, so the front clearance is really more of an issue. I think the needed clearance for the front of the wall heater would be just about the same as the stove.
I don't sell stoves, by the way. I just know that the stove becomes the automatic center of interest, comfort and attention on cold days and long, dark winter evenings. Even beats TV, most times, but TV is another subject.
The issue has more to do with where it would go. This is a narrow efficiency apartment under the roof. The side walls have attic space behind them, so a direct vent appliance is out of the question along them. That leaves the two end walls. One is where the bedroom would be, and there's a lot of wall space there. But that's the south side, and the heater would be best on the cold north side. But the stairs come up on the north side, and the wall heater would go in the landing area. No room for a fireplace there. Hmm. I might turn the stairs though, creating an alcove where a fireplace could go... Back to the drawing board.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Direct-vent stoves can be vented vertically as well as horizontally, if that's any help.
If you go the direct vent fireplace route, Valor makes nice ones.
I checked out Rinnai's gas fireplace, and it starts at 11,000 Btu. Methinks that would short cycle.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
11,000 input probably means about 10,000 output (at 90% efficiency), so even with your load calc that somewhat exaggerated the winter design temp, I think it would do well.
___________________________________________________________________
Ain't what you don't know what gets you in trouble. It's what you know fo' sho'--what ain't so.
Yeah, that's probably true. And it's going to be somewhat tighter and better insulated than the heat calc program I used had a model for, so I'm not concerned.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
A lot of direct vent stoves can run the vent through your attic space before it goes outside.
Andy,
I think you oughta call this little project "The House that Breaktime Built".
Taking that a step further, how's about a barn raising when it's time to frame?
With a bunch of free labor, and maybe some donated materials, why not go with a timber frame?
Cliff
Why not go with a timber frame, indeed. Because they're harder to wire?Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
You're gonna wire theplace for 'lectricity? Figured for the shop, you might go primitive a la Jamestown, and the apartment...well, you could rent it as a retreat, Walden Pond sort of gig. Whale oil lamps. Or as a haven for people afraid of EMF.
But seriously, thinking about the shop, are you could consider putting in a water closet, or at least a utility sink, and one of these:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/10/mister_miser_th.php
Also, how about one of these:
http://safehome.com.nmsrv.com/HFbrochE.pdf
Although I suppose if there's no toilet or urinal (or sink) in the shop, you might not need the fire hose cabinet...depending on your timing.
Cliff
Cliff, I live on 13 acres of woodland. What use is a urinal to me?I like the fire cabinet idea, though.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Andy: FWIW, using water heaters for both DHW and heating isn't uncommon.
At least around here - we have several condo complexes which do that. I haven't run the calc's but the earliest of those units were a bit under-heated - and the builders beefed up the sizing as they went.
The most common installation around here runs the hot water through an air handler.
Note that most codes specify that you have to be sure to keep potable water separate from that used for space heating.
As to temp: you can run the water heater full bore (160+/-) and use water tempering valve(s) for the potable hot water distribution part of the system
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
I thought about that, but given the cost of either a dedicated direct vent water heater, or a cheap water heater and a chimney, and the radiation (No ducts here, so no air handler), going with a wall mount heater is about a wash economically, and it's less work on my part. One thing crotchety New Englanders have in common is congenital laziness.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
480 sq. ft. efficiency apartment.
View Image
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Dude, this Connecticut. People expect heat that they only need to pay for.Andy"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
Edited 3/9/2009 7:53 am ET by Andy_Engel
People expect heat that they only need to pay for.
Well, if it makes them happy to pay for pre-cut-and-split cordwood, who am I to criticise? Even tho you live on 13 acres of woodland and could get free heat and clean up your lot for the same effort....
A wood stove takes you 'off the grid' so that when the marde hits the fan, you still have the ability to heat your joint without jumping thru hoops. That little stove will toast yer tootsies and anything else that needs warming up with ergs to spare. It will also boil water for your morning coffee while U sleep, and warm up yer supper while you waste time online at BT (which is what mine would be doing right now if it wasn't too friggin' warm to light a fire...).
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Easy enough to do in the main house should the merde hit the fan. The flip side is that most wood stoves would be way oversized for this apartment.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
most wood stoves would be way oversized for this apartment.
Yup. That's why Jotul makes that little beastie. I think it's one of the smallest wood stoves made, actually. Perfect as a second stove in a large house (say, a guest suite in a wing off the main house), or for a small apartment like yours. Once you learn to manage your fire, you should be able to heat that apartment comfortably on a minimum of wood, and should only have to light it once or twice per winter.
I've got a 3-storey house with a 600 SF footprint, which I heat with a Jotul #3 (about twice the size of the one I recommended for you). The stove is on the main floor, so I keep three small (1000w) electric baseboard heaters on 'low' all winter in the basement. In the late fall and early winter--and also in the late winter and early spring-- when temps are hovering around freezing, I will let the fire go out every couple of days if it gets too warm in here. But through the real heating season, I rarely if every have to light a new fire. The stove has 12+ hours of autonomy (Jotul only claims 8 hours, but they're conservative), and with a bit of experience, it's quite possible to go from December 1 to March 30 on one match and 5 cords of wood, and keep the temp in the house quite comfortable.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
BTW, there's no such thing as free heat, assuming you value human energy and time. As far as cleaning up the woodlot, I've considered it and rejected it. Parklike woods are nice, but there's less food for the animals. No dead trees, fewer woodpeckers and other cavity nesters. Read a fantastically interesting book recently called 1491, by Charles Mann. It went in to some detail about how eastern woodland Indians in fact managed the forest to their own advantage, mostly by annual burning. The same thing was done on the plains, according to the author, to push back the forest and increase habitat for buffalo and other grass eaters. American Indians were not the neolithic innocents we paint them to be. They were far more advanced both culturally and in how they controlled their world than we were ever taught in school. Never having domesticated as many animals as the Europeans, however, they never developed immunities to species-jumping disease such as the measles. According to Mann, something on the order of 90% of the Indian population was wiped out in the 16th century by disease spread by the first contact with Europeans. Most of the population died before ever seeing a European.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
I read that book last year. I couldn't agree more. It was fascinating indeed. That guy did some exhaustive research. Highly recommend it!
there's no such thing as free heat, assuming you value human energy and time.
The old timers used to say that wood warms you three times: Once when you cut it, a second time when you split it and stack it, and a third time when you burn it.
Anyway, you know what I meant: No cash outlay--which can be nice when you've got more time than money (as a lot of us do at the moment...).
As far as cleaning up the woodlot, I've considered it and rejected it. Parklike woods are nice, but there's less food for the animals. No dead trees, fewer woodpeckers and other cavity nesters.
Yes and no. I don't suggest you turn your 13 acres into a park, but there is always deadfall and storm-fall which you can 'harvest' for heating use. Beyond that, the most sustainable way to harvest a good-sized woodlot is to cut access trails through it slowly over the years. In your case, I doubt you'd need more than 3 or 4 cords per year to heat the place, unless the apartment was inhabited 24/7 by people who just gotta keep the temp up to 80F.
A single good-sized tree can yield a cord all by itself, so you're looking at maybe 5, 6, or 7 trees per year out of 13 acres--certainly not enough to put the woodpeckers, porcupines, and deer on short rations....
fantastically interesting book recently called 1491, by Charles Mann
I'm putting that on my 'I want it' list. Thanks for the recommendation....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dino, you're entirely missing the point. I'm lazy. <G>And yes, you're right. I could be entirely self sufficient in terms of heat here. Well, except for the chain saw and tractor gas. I'll tell you though, it would be a lot of work. Except for the three or so acres, the rest of the property is sloped. I'll bet parts of it are 30 percent or more. In any event, you don't tend to walk straight up them. I'd need a pretty good, and long, cable and pulley system for my little Farmall to be effective.Then there's Lyme disease. Nearly everyone who spends any significant amount of time in the woods here gets it. Not a big deal if caught, although you feel like hell for a couple of days. But still, not something to seek. And once you've had it, you always test positive, so after the first time you get it, you have to convince the doc that it's Lyme and not something viral every subsequent time. Winter logging reduces the chances of it, but a friend of mine came down with it two weeks ago. He picked up the tick splitting firewood.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King
LOL. I've not been missing the point, bro; I've just been waiting for you to come right out and say it.
My view of that? I'm as lazy as I can get away with being, but it doesn't take more than a day or two max to get in enough wood for the winter now that we have lovely stuff like chainsaws and gasoline-powered hydraulic splitters. It's not like you gotta shoulder yer axe and march up the mountain leading a couple of draft horses.
Me, I don't even own a 4-wheeler. I cut 'em small enough to wheelbarrow back to the truck, or carry out by hand if the terrain is too rough. Keeps me in shape so I can continue to embarrass the 35-year-olds on the Patrol who wonder how the old buzzard does it....
Every few years, we get a particularly nasty T-storm come thru in summer and at least one or two of my regular clients will have some blow-downs. I get paid to clean up the damage, and often I get paid to haul the 'scrap' away as many of them don't burn a face cord in 4 years and don't want the wood cluttering up their yard. The year after I cut it, I can burn that 'scrap' so I don't have to buy a stick of firewood.
Wood heat cuts my electric bill down from a potential $3000 per winter to about $600-750; cutting my own wood saves me another $600.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dino, have you ever figured out how many hours and how much gas it takes to cut your own wood?
I'm not being snarky. As a kid we felled, cut, split, stacked, and burned 10-15 cord a year. Once his free labor was gone my dad went to oil heat (go figure!). Now I'm cutting some of my own again and forgot how much work it is--though it is more fun that a gym, or golfing, which splitting reminds me of. I'm thinking that I'm not paying myself very well to do it though.
Actually, I have those figures pretty well taped since I do this fairly often.
To cut, split, transport, and stack 10 cords of wood from felled and branched trees takes two men two days, going easy. Can be done in one day, but you'll feel like you've been run over by a truck at the end of it unless you do this all the time.
Gas and bar oil for the saw comes to about $25; add another $16 if you want the luxury of a nice new chain to start the job off.
Now: As to how much two guys for two days is worth, that depends.
If you gotta take time out of a busy construction schedule where you're billing $40/hour, and if you gotta use one of your helpers at $15/hour, then two days of that is gonna cost you $880 + $25 + $16. Plus the cost of the logs from the guy who felled the trees (around here, the current price is $20/cord). Total: Fairly pricey, about equivalent to buying split, delivered cordwood from someone else (here, current cost is from $85-$120).
OTOH, if you're WOW ("Waiting on Work") and have a few days with nothing to do but gripe to your buds about how the lousy economy is killin' ya, then four days workin' alongside a bud who's in the same situation will get both of you ten cords each for about $50 (plus the cost of the logs).
If you don't know a woodlot owner or farmer to buy felled logs from, or if you can fell your own trees and know what you're doing, you can knock down and branch 10 cords' worth before lunch using about $5 worth of gas and bar oil.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Cool. If I drive an hour I can get free trees from family, so maybe it's not as bad a deal as I thought.
The only thing I'd check first for that situation is how you're going to haul the split wood back home. That hour's drive could get real repetitive if you need a lot of wood and only have a ½-ton trailer and a pickup. Most you could haul safely in one trip would be about 3 or 4 cords, for 1-year semi-dry. If it's green wood (felled the previous winter), cut that by at least a third.
Maybe rent a two-axel dump trailer for the trip...?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....