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I am building my own home this spring. I am planning on geothermal with infloor radiant heat in LW concrete. I have harvested oak from my land and am planning on 4″ planking over this in the great room. I have a few questions:
1. Can anyone recommend a good Geothermal unit? Presently I am looking at American Geothermal DX as it looks like a very efficient and sound unit.
2. What is the best type of tubing to use for infloor radiant heat? I have some information on PEX, but also have some on a product called Kitec. Anyone familiar with the latter and its performance?
3. Is there any way I can float a solid oak floor over the radiant heat supply to avoid space between individual planks and still prevent warping?
Can’t wait to hear your answers.
Levi
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Paul,
Do you have a concrete set of blueprint's yet? Have you chosen your windows? More importantly, do you have a detailed heat loss analysis specific to RFH and a design that lays out the various water temperature requirements for the various zones? What about any needs for supplemental heat if a particular room cannot supply the required BTUH output given restrictions on surface temperatures?
Floating a naildown wood floor over poured underlayment requires something to nail it to, such as 3/4 to 1 1/8" ply. Of course then you have added an additional R1 to R1.5 to the upward resistance which of course requires a higher water temperature which then may require supplemental radiation surfaces or something that would 'bump up' the water temperature since the water-to-water heat pump is basically great at producing 'warm' water but has it's limits.
Have you considered radiant wall/or ceiling surfaces if indeed you need supplemental for specific zones/rooms?
If you have all of that, can you post a link to it here so we could take a look at your figures and then give you informed advice?
The most important part of using wide plank hardwood is ensuring it has been dimensionally stabilized prior to installation.
Are you somewhere in the UP of Michigan? What is your outdoor design temperature? What is the coldest period of more than a few hours that you would experience in the average winter?
Have you checked out the Hydron module and Addison?
Isn't it ironic that 'one' question ultimately leads to a dozen more? Same as the first call on Monday morning ultimately results in a dozen more calls to get an answer.[g]
Jeff
*.........geothermal..........BRRRR!..has the equipment gotten any more reliable...?have the manufacturer's figured out how to stay in business so they can service their warranties a couple years down the road...We fought all those fights in the 70's & 80's... that's when I developed a real fondness for KISS.....If I needed a rocket scientist to service my customer's equipment... it was not going in with my name on it..Hope things have gotten better on that front... have they ?
*Levi,Wow! You never know where a question will lead... I'm going to limit my response to the your last question... about Kitec.The manufacturer, Kitec, produces a piping called PEX-AL-PEX, which has a layer of aluminum sandwiched between two layes of PEX. I'm convinced this is the only way to go for in floor radiant. I guess it can be a few cents more, depending on the competition but its great to work with and provides almost 100% oxygen barrier (which is important despite what some manufacturers say). That's not the end of the advantages... do yourself a favor and do a search of pex-al-pex on the web and you'll learn a lot. Kitec isn't the only manufacturer of the beast, though I must admit, its the only once i've used.Ron
*Paul,Are you sure you mean "geothermal"? This term is only appropriate if you intend to get your heat from a hot spring or geyser. Some folks say "geothermal" when they mean an "earth coupled heat pump". I have an earth coupled heat pump manufactured and installed by Hydro-Temp Corporation in Pocahontas, AR. They have been in business for 20 years or so and have over 6,000 installations in the NE Ark-SE Mo area. They sell nationwide. I suggest you check out their very informative web site at http://www.hydro-temp.com/. Steve
*Levi:I'm taking an unofficial pole. Why did you not post this question in the "Energy: Heating, Insulating, & Venting a House" subfolder?Sounds like you are getting some good feedback. Good luck with your home building project.Matt
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Jeff --
Yikes, alot of great questions. Some I even have answers to. Thanks for your input. I'll try to answer in order and probably pose a few more.
1. concrete blueprints are being rendered. Incidentally, I am thinking of doing ICF's. Do you have any recommendations/preferences or words of wisdom.
2. Windows -- Anderson, tilt and wash style.
3. Have had a room by room heat loss done but I haven't seen it. It is in the hands of my HVAC guy.
4. Haven't thought about supplemental heat as everyone I talk to says I'll get plenty of heat from the geothermal unit. Do you know something different?
5. Was thinking of putting down 2x2 sleepers in the LW concrete to use as nailers for the wood floor if I can't float it. This will not affect the R value then. I'm also considering biscuiting/gluing ends together along with angle nailing the t&g.
6. Haven't considered radiant wall/ceiling. Just planning to make a "tight" house.
7. How do I post a link to you?
8. What do you mean about dimensionally stabilized lumber? Is this referring to flat vs. quartersawn or allowing lumber to adjust to room prior to putting it down?
9. Yes. I'm live in Iron Mountain/Kingsford region. Its lovely up here, but off the beaten path a little -- just how I like it. Surprisingly, our weather is not that severe. Maybe 1-2 weeks out of the whole winter below zero. Minimal to nil windchills. It's actually more mild here than where I'm from in southern Minnesota.
10. Don't know anything about Hydron or Addison. I will check out the internet or do you have a site?
Can't thank you enough, Jeff. Will await your reply.
Humbly,
Paul
*Mike -- Check out amgeo.com for their system. Spoke with a Baptist minister who lives in northcentral Minnesota with one of these systems. Gets pretty chilly up there!! Average heating bills of $17.62/month! Just loves it.Not sure how long American Geothermal has been in business but I think its been awhile. But I can relate to your comment about a rocket scientist. Hopefully its not that bad anymore. I'll find out from them.The other thing is that I can glean domestic hot water off this thing in the cooling months. I have read that the water temp can get even as high as 160-170 degrees. That's hot enough for me.Thanks for your comments. Any additional would be appreciated.Paul
*Ron --Thanks a million for your comments on Kitec and pex-al-pex. I spoke to one dealer (who didn't deal in kitec) and he had concerns over delamination. Is there any problem with this as far as you are concerned?I've looked over the internet site on kitec. I'll look for pex-al-pex now. Thanks for the valuable info.GraciouslyPaul
*Steve - Geo means earth to me, thermal means heat. Thats what I mean, but I guess you may have a point as well. I'll look up hydro-temp.com. Thanks for the vital info.Serving Him,Paul
*Matt --New to breaktime so don't know my way around very well. Can you show me how to get into that subfolder??ThanksPaul
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Welcome To Breaktime! To find the subfolders look at the top of the main Breaktime page. There are a number of subfolders listed in BOLD type. Just click and you are in.
The term geothermal came int the popular lexicon during the energy shortage. In a number of suitable areas, mostly in Northern California, efforts were made to tap pockets of steam in the earth for heat and power generation. Folks in Iceland have been doing this for years.
The fact is, however, that this type of free energy is not available in most parts of the world.
An eath coupled heat pump is more than heat from the earth. It is also a cooling system. The loops in my system produce water that is about 48 degrees year round. In a conventional heat pump, the system looks for heat in the air. The colder it gets the greater the need for heat and the less heat there is to be had. In the cooling mode, a conventional heat pump dumps heat into the air. The hotter it is the more difficult this is to do. Simply put, the colder it is or the hotter it is the harder a conventional heat pump must work to make the heat exchange. On the otherhand, ground source heat pumps almost always have a heat source that is warmer than the ambient temperature and a place to dump excess heat that is always colder than the ambient temperature. Much more efficient. What did you think of the Hydro-Temp site?
Steve
*Ok Paul,I didn't mean to get your neck spun in a knot. It's just that so many seem to think there isn't all that much to consider in properly designing a heating system. True it ain't rocket science but there is a lengthy checklist of info to plug into the equation.Comments to your remarks/questions:1.concrete blueprints are being rendered. Incidentally, I am thinking of doing ICF's. Do you have any recommendations/preferences or words of wisdom?I think ICF's are great from an energy standpoint. Will probably only take 1 candle instead of two to heat that zone.[g] When I spoke 'concrete' plans I was thinking more along the lines of construction drawings but that's OK, as you are already aware, there are significant details to be tended to with underslab insulation as well.2. Windows -- Anderson, tilt and wash style.U or R value known to plug into the equation? I thought so!3. Have had a room by room heat loss done but I haven't seen it. It is in the hands of my HVAC guy.Get it!! Even if you have to pay for it. Look it over very well, item by item. Probably not as critical with the high insulation values of ICF's, however why add the extra expense in the ground loop just because 'someone wanted to cover their ass'. Most proprietary tubing manufacturer's heat loss software has enuff slop on the high side.4. Haven't thought about supplemental heat as everyone I talk to says I'll get plenty of heat from the geothermal unit. Do you know something different?Let the proper calcs do the talking. I wouldn't want to venture a guess without seeing all the real figures. I know a slew of projects in Minnesota and N/S Dakota get along great without supplemental. Every project and situation has its own unique set of circumstances. At least that is how I approach design work. I TOTALLY distrust rules of thumb from a finite design standpoint.5. Was thinking of putting down 2x2 sleepers in the LW concrete to use as nailers for the wood floor if I can't float it. This will not affect the R value then. I'm also considering biscuiting/gluing ends together along with angle nailing the t&g.I would recommend placing your sleepers on 12" centers and running your tubing at 6" on center under plank hardwood. Also encourage constant circulation with system reset to get away from the bang-bang effect of large/fast temperature changes in the substrate.6. Haven't considered radiant wall/ceiling. Just planning to make a "tight" house.May not need it, eh? What plans have you for air changes? HRV? Operable windows?[g]7. How do I post a link to you?Just click on my name at the top of my post. Or click here. 8. What do you mean about dimensionally stabilized lumber? Is this referring to flat vs. quartersawn or allowing lumber to adjust to room prior to putting it down?Yep. If you need more info on this, try National Oak Floor Manufactures Association. This link is a good place to start if you need more info.9. Yes. I'm live in Iron Mountain/Kingsford region. Its lovely up here, but off the beaten path a little -- just how I like it. Surprisingly, our weather is not that severe. Maybe 1-2 weeks out of the whole winter below zero. Minimal to nil windchills. It's actually more mild here than where I'm from in southern Minnesota.I would not have guessed the weather in your area was that mild. I have designed systems in the UP with much more severe conditions. Now you're gonna make me look you up in the ASHRAE tables.[g]You didn't grow up with Jessee, yah?10. Don't know anything about Hydron or Addison. I will check out the internet or do you have a site? Check out Geoexchange. They have a members section that lists many manufacturers with web site links. If you have a little free time on your hands, click here to see a few job photos and some miscellanea that I uploaded to this site.Can't thank you enough, Jeff. Will await your reply.You are quite welcome Paul. Hope I didn't make you wait too Looooong. Had trouble loading the site this morning. Gave me a chance to practice my html. Now I'm going to press that 'Post Reply' button and see how I did!! God hates a coward!Cheers,Jeff
*For my wood floors in my radiant-floor heated home, I used a prefinished wood veneer type floor (Harris Tarkett). I choose this because it is more dimensionally stable with significant temp changes and it can be floated. It has held up extremely well (minimal gapping). It could potentially be refinished a time or two although I doubt it will ever be needed. I am happy with my choice.
*Damn.The first time I posted this everything was OK except for one line. I went to edit my original mistake and reposted. Everything turned RED!!At least I'll get a little 'troubleshooting' in to figure it out.Sorry, I know it's hard to read and I think my edit time is up.JeffJeff
*Paul:Thanks.Looks like Steve has your question covered.
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I am building my own home this spring. I am planning on geothermal with infloor radiant heat in LW concrete. I have harvested oak from my land and am planning on 4" planking over this in the great room. I have a few questions:
1. Can anyone recommend a good Geothermal unit? Presently I am looking at American Geothermal DX as it looks like a very efficient and sound unit.
2. What is the best type of tubing to use for infloor radiant heat? I have some information on PEX, but also have some on a product called Kitec. Anyone familiar with the latter and its performance?
3. Is there any way I can float a solid oak floor over the radiant heat supply to avoid space between individual planks and still prevent warping?
Can't wait to hear your answers.
Levi
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Sent out some information/questions and now am trying to get more information on their system. He has been very helpful and informative. Thanks for your direction.
Paul