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I went to pick up my new windows yesterday. Fortunately, I thought to measure a few, and found out the bad news: All are roughly 2″ too narrow and 3″ too short. The idea was to replace my old rotten and termite eaten windows with new ones the same size. I measured the inside dimensions of the frames, which should be the same as the outside dimensions of the pairs of sashes in the closed position (casement windows). I explained that when I placed the order. What came back were frames whose outside dimensions are what the inside dimensions should have been. What I remember being said when I placed the order was that these were “net opening” dimensions. I figured that net is the inside, the smaller dimension. Usually net means smaller. On the paperwork with the bad windows, it says “net frame” for the dimensions.
Do you know and use the terms “net opening” or “net frame”? Is this my mistake, or theirs? At this point, they have my $20k, and I left the windows there. Any advice?
Thanks —
— J.S.
Replies
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Your mistake, John.
You should have taken the trim off the windows and gotten an RO measurement. And the outside measurement of the window frames.
These windows aren't just 2 and 3 inches too small. When you begin to actualy take the old windows out, you'll find that the rough opening is even larger than the frame of the window itself.
The measurement of the inside of the rough opening is the gross measurement. The measurement of the outside of the window frame is the net measurement. The net has to fit into the gross with room for some shims, so that you can level and plumb the window when you set it.
I would go back to them and plead ignorance. Ask them to take them back, and give you the windows with the right measurements. It's slightly possible that they will take them back, and charge you a restock fee.
*That's a lot of bucks to eat and I'm betting that they intend to do everything they can to get you to do the eating.When I spec replacements I use the term tip-to-tip, which is the outside dimensions of the frame. As far as I know, "net opening" refers to the sash dimensions and defines the clear openable area, especially as used for egress requirements.If what you gave were the net opening dimensions then that someone who took your order made the mistake because the frame goes on the outside of that defined opening. In any case, the person taking your order should have been knowledgeable about his product, known exactly how window dimensions are called out and made sure that you and he were apples to apples with the definitions and dimensions.You paid it all up front? Cash or credit card? If credit card, you might have CC company help in pursuing a claim. Good luck.
*> You should have taken the trim off the windows and gotten an RO measurement. And the outside measurement of the window frames. Alas, not too practical in an occupied building.> These windows aren't just 2 and 3 inches too small. When you begin to actualy take the old windows out, you'll find that the rough opening is even larger than the frame of the window itself. Yes, they're 2 - 3 inches smaller than the existing windows that fit with reasonable shimming in the rough openings. The idea was to make windows just like the originals, only not rotten and termite eaten.-- J.S.
*> You paid it all up front? Cash or credit card? Paid all up front, by check, which probably has been cashed. I can ask the bank in the morning.-- J.S.
*Hmmmmmm, this be true.The light at the end of the tunnel, maybe.... Look at Ralph's post and at mine. It's been a while for me, but I explained it as I understand, (understood ?), it. This is obviously not the way Ralph understands it to be. I have no doubt Ralph understands it better than I do. Looking back, it's entirely possible I never really understood the apples and oranges even when I did order windows. But I am one of those who gives all kinds of information and explanation when dealing with something like this, hoping that somewhere in the flood of data I present, the person I am talking to will figure out the truth of the matter. And apparently I was lucky enough that that was true.Regardless, if nothing else is apparent, it is very apparent that this sort of thing is easily misconstrued, and the people that you dealt with have obviously dealt with this situation many times. Don't just give it up. Hopefully they will be willing to deal with you, with a minimum of extra cost, or maybe even no extra cost.
*It's a little late now, but I always have the rep come and measure for himself.....then there's no argument when things go wrong...............good luck, if the companys large enough they may redo .......if not they could balk.
*John - I'm sorry to hear of your problem but I don't think you have any recourse. The person you placed the order with obviously didn't understand that you had measured sashes, not frames.With older / historic structures, what we do is match the lite size of the windows, which is usually pretty important. However, due to the way that many windows are made today (very different than in the past, different stiles, rails, etc.) the final size may vary a lot from the originals and may even require RO modifications. Luka is correct that for weight-in-pocket windows, for instance, the RO width is much larger to allow for weight clearance and must be framed in. You needed to look at the manufacturer's standard details and add their frame thickness/shim space to your inside measurement, ensuring that the final product, as installed is not smaller than the siding opening.The key reference terms used with Marvin, for instance, are: Frame Size (that's i outside of frame) Rough Opening (frame size plus about 1 inch) Masonry Opening, Glass size and Daylight Opening.In your case, if you did not care about the resulting lite size, the correct way to approach this would be to remove one window and check the RO. Then you need to carefully look at the relationship of casing to siding coursing (as appropriate) and also consider sill thickness, since some lines are available with thicker sills to match older construction.Some lumber yards might be willing to offer your windows for sale on a heavily-discounted basis - good luck.Jeff
*Sorry to hear about your dilema, John. But I more or less have to sidfe with Luka on this. You ordered a truckload of windows without knowing i exactlyhow to measure them, and communicating it to the seller. (Where did you order them from, anyway?)As I see it, you may have a i littleleverage to use against them. The guy you talked to knew it was a large order, and should have made sure you knew what you were ordering. If you discussed with them i exactlyhow you measured them you might have a case. Take it up with the person you ordered them from, then move on to the manager. Even if they won't eat the windows, (And I doubt they would) they might agree to sell them at cost, or something of that nature. Doesn't hurt to try.
*John,Im very sorry for your dilema also. I think if you've done alot of business with this supplier and go plead ignorance and beg forgiveness you might be able to work something out. If the guy at the contractors desk cant/wont help you then escalate it up the food chain to even the store manager. If you dont get satisfaction then contact the manufacturer. They may be able to work something out with you. If you have to move up the food chain at the manufacturer do that also. Good luck. You know next year Im gonna be replaceing my windows. This very thing has been in the back of my mind. Jim how do you get the rep to out and measure for ya. Just curious.
*At least they weren't too big. A blocking we will go...
*John,If the windows are not special order, then yourlumber yard should have no problem taking / changingyour order. good luck
*> It's a little late now, but I always have the rep come and measure for himself.....Wow. They do that? At Terry Lumber, it was hard to get anybody to even bother to take a little order like this. The guy was obviously bored with the whole thing.-- J.S.
*> If you discussed with them exactly how you measured them you might have a case.Yes, absolutely I told them exactly how I measured.-- J.S.
*> If the windows are not special order, then your lumber yard should have no problem taking / changing your order.Alas, if they had been done right, they would have been standard sizes. They had to make them up special to do it wrong.-- J.S.
*Sounds like you'd better get down there and start talking to them before the guy gets a case of "convenient amnesia". Not much else can be said here that can do you any good.
*John,that's bad news...Now you and the lumberyard have a bunch of expensive,odd-sized windows that would be difficult if not impossible to sell to anyone else.And you have already paid for them,so the yard doesn't really care if you pick them up or not.Being special order size,the manufacturer won't want them back.Here's what I would do--try to get the lumberyard to assume some responsibility for the misunderstanding on sizing,and at least sell you the windows at cost.Then I would be figuring out how to install these smaller windows on my project.I'm not gonna tell you now how to close the barn door once the cow's out-you're probably stuck with these windows.Maybe I and others here can come up with creative ways to install these windows and salvage what you've got.Luck to you, jw
*> ... before the guy gets a case of "convenient amnesia". ...He's already got it.-- J.S.
*John - What brand of window?
*Was this Terry Lumber in Glendale?Nice builder's supply, but complete idiots there. They had me drive 45 minutes up there with the assurance they had Hardibacker 500 and when I got there, they only had the 1/4" stuff. Arrgh!!!I spoke with the guy that fielded the call and he could care less. I pointed to their Mission Statement behind the counter, which stated some bullsh*t like honesty integrity etc etc., and they gave me some free lumber pencils.I suggest a TShirt which says" "I Got Scr*wed By Terry Lumber, and all I Got some Lumber Pencils" I use Benchmark Doors at the Santa Monica airport for custom windows. I also have a Mexican craftsman that believe or not builts the suckers in a garage with a Sears router. Incredible stuff, with bear skins and stone knives. Email me if you want some direction.Seriously, this is your fault. I would have taken off the inside trim and measured the rough opening, and deducted 1.5 inches. You could have lived without trim for a month. I have never heard of the term "Net Opening", so I must plead ignorance on that one. I would ask a couple of custom window places what that means. Perhaps if it is a defined term, you will be in luck.Maybe you and your lawyer could get your money back.
*> What brand of window? Paramount Windows, made in Canada. They have a web site, Paramountwindows.com.-- J.S.
*> Was this Terry Lumber in Glendale? >Nice builder's supply, but complete idiots there.No, in Hollywood. Staff competence is probably about the same.> I spoke with the guy that fielded the call and he could care less. Same with this guy until the error was discovered. Thanks for the suggestions. I have an old friend who specializes in construction litigation, I'll give him a call.-- J.S.
*john.. u is screwed..and i'm confused..did you buy $20,000 worth of windows ? as in twenty-thousand dollars ? if so.. this isb NOT a small window order.... custom window guys would drool over an order like this .. how many windows ?what's the average size ?ordering windows is always one of those difficult deals.. you HAVE to knwo all of their terms.. and , yes, for an order this size they should have been kissing your ass and making the measurements for you...how will the house look with the new size ?
*>Jim how do you get the rep to out and measure for ya. Just Well, when I built houses I had a salesman who did all that stuff. I took in a print and he did the takeoff etc. sent the materials out and took back the overages ....he measured the trim package and the kitchen cabinets. When I needed glass for say a prow front wall to peak I framed for the glass and then I called the glass guy,... he came out measured and installed it. I never touched them.....so if I got a leak, he fixed it....if they were off size ..he ate it.For twenty thou worth of windows I would have gone where they would come and measure. I don't think too many would refuse around here. It's always smart to put the ball in the other guys pocket...and really not that much more expensive when you figure your labor etc.Same reason I always have the homeowner pick out the stain/etc...I hate to hear "Gee, it's really a pretty hutch, but that's not the color I wanted........"
*I know a few of you are suggesting to have the rep come out and measure the windows, but after meeting a few reps, I wouldn't have any of them measure anything for me. We did a job about 10 years ago where we had a rep come out and measure a job just like xJohn's for Andersen double hungs. 28 of the 32 windows went back. Fortunately, it was an Andersen job where all of the windows were off of the shelf units. But, if it had been a Marvin or other custom supplier, now you sit and wait 3 to 4 weeks for the correct windows. I'm with the others here that when ordering custom windows, you have to look at every single unit and you must yank the trim on at least a couple. How else are you going to know the unit dimension of the existing unit ? Window jambs vary in thickness from 5/8" up to 1 1/2". You must be especially careful in checking the height because the inside unit dimension is not always the true overall unit dimension. Mike is right, a $20,000 order is a big order for custom windows. The fact that they didn't have time for you was a good sign that they wouldn't make time to calculate what your final unit dimensions should have been.Did they ever get you to sign anything stating what the "Make" sizes would be ? Our suppliers live and breathe by this paperwork.
*> did you buy $20,000 worth of windows ?Yes, the actual bottom line was $19,999.19> if so.. this is NOT a small window order.... custom window guys would drool over an order like this ..Not this guy, he was bored with it.> how many windows ?> what's the average size ? A total of 40 windows:5 @ 48x726 @ 36x664 @ 36x488 @ 30x542 @ 30x484 @ 30x368 @ 24x362 @ 16x32> for an order this size they should have been kissing your ass and making the measurements for you... Even now they're not particularly interested.> how will the house look with the new size ? Kinda strange, as the blind arches above the big windows are supposed to be the same width as the windows. Maybe another little modification there....Thanks ---- J.S.
*> Did they ever get you to sign anything stating what the "Make" sizes would be ? Our suppliers live and breathe by this paperwork. The paperwork says "net frame dimensions".-- J.S.
*"Net window opening" what the freak is that? There is unit dimension, and rough opening. Nothing else can be "calculated" unless you are talking to the same window manufacturer, with the same window, and he actually knows what the jamb thickness is. When the trim is on, you may as well be figuring what is on the bottom of the ocean from the beach. Sorry....education costs lots of money. If someone tried to get me to eat this, I'd countersue. But then again I wouldn't measure without pulling trim. I know some lumber salesmaen that wouldn't get off their fat asses to measure for $100,000 and others that come out with a single 2x4 delivery. Know which ones I deal with?
*john.. that's $500 a window... for new primary..like an andersen with interior casing and exterior casing and some siding. we get about $1200 each... but.. my replacement window sub will furnish & install top of the line vinyl replacement windows for $285 until the cows come home....your window supplier got some 'splainin to do.. and some help to provide on this.. you paid TOP dollar and should get better treatment than you're getting
*Alright its time to quit the crying and wishing u had this or that....Ya got 20k of new windows that aint going bacvk so lets plan on putting them where they supposed to go.Sure youre going to rip out the interior and exterior trim...maybe mite even be able to salvage some if your not working to enraged but someway or other these birds are going to have to go in!!!Get abck to the framing split the diffrence on either side and block,block block. You might find out you probably should do this if you want to make sure youre ridding yourself of all the damage and decay.No use puttin a golden saddle on a mule!So you didnt pass Window Measuring 101...tsktsk but I bet youll be come a star pupil of Wrong Windows Going in Hook or by Crook 101 by the time your done.Foget Judge Judy and they shoulda this or that.Ya bought ya some windows and these babies are going in.I know you can do it bubba..make us all proud.! Try one see what happens, tell us and well help ya out.
*treetalk...nice touch....and EVERYBODY wants wide trim right? When they give you lemons...make.....
*cars
*Treetalk:You made me laugh today. Nice post.
*john, had a customer cancel on custom storm windows once. she decided to do replacement windows instead.she sold the storms by printing flyers and putting ads in local paper in about two weeks!sold them at the cost to her!! turns out a guy needed same sizes and got them quickly.maybe you'll get lucky. If you can, contact a few design/ build guy's , they may be able to design around these for the right price.
*Hi John,Were these windows solid vinyl manufacture?If so, you really got took on the price. $500 a window for those sizes you listed are OUTRAGEOUS! As Mike Smith mentioned, I can get a top of the line solid vinyl for under $225. Most of yours I could have gotten for around $190. AS for "Net", or "gross", these are terms used by THAT manufacturer. Other manufacturers also use those terms, and still others don't. My manufacturer uses the terms "Exact" (which they aren't..."exact sizes get trimmed down by manufacturer) and "tip to tip" (which really are exact..no cut down)What I'm driving at is that you and they needed to be on the same page, and once you signed the paper, too late. So sorry to hear this. That paper you signed should have also had a description of what those terms meant. It may be hidden in the "fine-print" but it has to be there somewhere, if not this may be your only "out" though I really doubt it.NOW...as Treetalk says...time to make some lemonade from those lemons.Casement windows right? Sounds to me that you were going to pull the frame and all out anyhow on the old ones. You measured sash sizes, but you had planned to replace whole window unit, right? Leastways, thats what I thought from reading your posts.Well, pull the frames out. Leave the interior trim alone. Crank out your window sashes, pop off the top and bottom flat bars, scoot the sash in the channel and pull it out of the framework. Once the sashes have been removed, remove the screws holding the framework to the side walls. If you can't pop the flat bars off, use a metal cutting blade and your sawzall, If the screws won't back out of the frame, use your sawzall, but cut from the outside toward the interior, or simply cut frame in half and start pulling it inward and apart. You know what I mean. I'm sure you know how to do this.Anyway, you're 3inches short on height and 2 inches on the width, right? Build a box out of treated lumber. Build it so the casement unit will fit inside and that the thickness of the box will be thick enough to pad the opening. Hell, 2x treated lumber(1-1/2 actual) for top and bottom will give you the 3 inches. Plane a 2x to a 1 inch thickness for the side pieces and you got your 2 inches. The depth of the box should be the same depth of the new window frame unit. Build your box, install box in opening, then install window unit into box.On outside of unit, bend aluminum coil stock to cover the treated box structure, and caulk where needed. For inside of box, cut thin veneer and tack overtop of treated wood and or add additional layers of decorative trim to both hide the treated wood and to add depth (reveals) to the window frame. Also, you don't have to put coil stock on exterior, you could use brickmould or other wood trim designs just as easily if this is look you prefer.40 of those boxes could be made by 2 guys in 8 - 10 hours easy. Plane all your sides, make all your cuts, then simply glue and screw with exterior deck screws or stainless deck screws. Use simple butt joints...nothing fancy here....it will hold up just fine.Cost is negligible compared to eating 20K. This is easier than reframing existing walls to accept your wrong sized windows. Do one window as a trial. Experiment with different layers of inside trim. If you don't like it...then curse me...I don't care...But, this will work.Davo
*> Were these windows solid vinyl manufacture? No, wood, paint grade, true divided lite.> AS for "Net", or "gross", these are terms used by THAT manufacturer. Other manufacturers also use those terms, and still others don't. My manufacturer uses the terms "Exact" (which they aren't..."exact sizes get trimmed down by manufacturer) and "tip to tip" (which really are exact..no cut down) Thanks, that's helpful information.> That paper you signed should have also had a description of what those terms meant. It may be hidden in the "fine-print" but it has to be there somewhere, if not this may be your only "out" though I really doubt it. No, actually there are no definitions in the paperwork, another good sign.> Casement windows right? Sounds to me that you were going to pull the frame and all out anyhow on the old ones. You measured sash sizes, but you had planned to replace whole window unit, right?Yes, pulling out everything, and following the termites as deep into the rough framing as they go. That's why I figure on re-making most of the rough openings anyhow. I specified by sash sizes because that's what I wanted to match with the new windows. I didn't particularly care how much shimming I'd have between the RO and the window frame, that's hidden inside the wall. There's 1/2" to 1" on the sides and 1" - 3" top and bottom on the ones I've opened up so far.One big question is, is it really rare to specify by sash dimensions when you want to reproduce the look of old windows? Terry's position is that nobody ever does that, and that "net frame" meaning the outside of the frame is the only measurement ever used for window orders.> Leave the interior trim alone.The interior trim goes -- trashed by the tenants, dozens of coats of paint, not good stuff in the first place. Termites got the outside, tenants got the inside.... ;-)> Also, you don't have to put coil stock on exterior, ....The exterior is stucco. It'll be sandblasted, patched after the windows are in, xypexed to keep water out, and then a scrub coat for the final color. The windows have a stucco moulding on the outside.> This is easier than reframing existing walls to accept your wrong sized windows.Yes, but in most cases I anticipate enough termite damage that I'll need to re-frame anyhow.Thanks for your interest ---- J.S.
*John,I know when things like this happen , it just churns your stomach for days. We all have our bad days and we all live and learn. I'm not sure pursuing this anymore with "Terrys Lumber" is going to help. Like Davo said, these windows can work in your house, you just have to believe they can. You're were planning on tearing out interior trim, repatching outside , and was already planning on redoing some framing , so you're already almost there.You could even come out with a nicer look , wider trim, or as Davo described a layered effect. By adding more elements or layers , you can achieve a more craftsman appeal.Good luck with your project and here's hoping you find nothing but dead termites.Let us know how you make out.DJ
*John: Same thing happened to me a few years ago, only on a much smaller scale. I gave the exact RO size just like Luka suggested. They made the sashes this size, so needless to say they were too big. This was all ordered over the telephone, and fortunately for me, my dealer was honest. He admitted remembering me saying that I was giving hime RO measurements. No problem, he reordered and brought me 7 new windows.
*Hi John.As for measuring just the sash sizes or the Rough Opening to give to salesman when placing an order,I always give the RO measurements only. I feel this dimension is the most critical and manufacturer will make any necessary design changes so that sash itself will look properly proportioned.Case in point...Was ordering solid vinyl replacement windows, these were large opening windows ranging from 6ft to 8 ft wide X 3ft tall on average. This unit was comprised of a fixed center glass, combined with operating casement units on each end. The formula for these openings were that the fixed center was to be twice as long as the casements. (formula was 1/4...1/2...1/4). Anyhoo, I later got a call from my supplier telling me that on a few certain sizes,( no 2 windows were the same size..installed 6 of em) they would have to cut down the width on the fixed panel because the casement sash frames had to remain at a specific dimension. They asked me if this was okay, I said sure...the fixed pane was no longer sized according to the overall formula, but you really couldn't tell the difference...yet the overall width of the entire combined unit was held to the RO tolerances that I had specified.Unless you are replacing a broken sash only, I believe IMHO that it is always best to give the RO dimension. BTW, I know one contractor who gives RO sizes and then requests that units be "neat." Neat refering to no cut down on the given dimensions. Just thought I'd throw another (useless) term at you...like I said before...terms only matter if they are the terms commonly used by that manufacturer/supplier.Hey, Good luck John. Like djk mentioned...it appears you had anticipated doing reframing work anyway due to termite trouble...it'll all work out in the end.Might be a good idea to make a jobsite "story pole" showing the new finished stool height and/or header height. Least, which ever way the framing goes, each room will be consistent with one another. Just a thought.Good luck to you.Davo
*> I gave the exact RO size just like Luka suggested. They made the sashes this size, so needless to say they were too big.Wow, thanks Stan. This refutes Terry Lumber's claim that nobody ever uses sash dimensions. That's very helpful.> fortunately for me, my dealer was honest. He admitted remembering me saying that I was giving hime RO measurements. Glad to hear it. If only the guy at Terry were likewise....Thanks ---- J.S.
*John: To add a little more.....I always have been told to figure the RO size, then they build them accordingly. Mine were replacement windows, so I just took off some inside casing and got my measurements.
*xjohn..sounds like alls well that ends well... the ture divided lights adds a lot to teh cost of teh units... and since yur sash size remains the same.. the window proportions should works well with the house... a little more work than the $285 i was quoting you.. but your replacement program sounds more like what we do with new primary replacements at $1200 a pop...have at it and enjoy....after the first two or three, you'll have a good system in place
*John,I feel for you, I really do. I've had my share of similar incidents but on much smaller scales when I was new & inexperienced in construction.I'ts one hell of a sure-fire way to learn a lesson, eh?I have to say though, that this seems to be your fault. you assumed too much and probably didn't ask the questions you need to for fear of looking stupid or inexperienced. Personally, I'll ask every question 3 times and then some, and look as stupid as I can, before I'll let my pride or stupidity cost me 20,000 or 20.I seriously doubt you supplier is gonna be in any hurry to fix your mistake at their cost. You may need to start building in those openings soon.Is this a customer's home or yours? Are you new at this? I know I've seen you posting here for a while but don't know what you do for a living.Live and learn,Pete
*John,Made a similar mistake with a huge door for the Master Bath. Unfortunately it was LARGER than the opening. No one would eat the mistake (it actually was DW's, but you know how that goes...)We opened up the wall a bit, put it in, and have not looked back since.Point is, and I think has been made several times already in this post, that I think you are gonna have to make do with what you got. It could be much worse, they could be larger than the openings. The fact that the house is stucco on the outside is a good thing, you should be able to make it unnoticable. And since you are going to have to re-do ALL the windows, they will be uniformly non-typical. So everything may look just fine.Bottom line, I think we are all very sorry for the mix up, but it sounds like a recoverable mistake. Now if the windows had been too big...
*> I have to say though, that this seems to be your fault. I told them very clearly that I measured the inside dimensions of the frame, where the sashes go. They then used the term "net frame" on their paperwork, which didn't sound wrong to me.> Is this a customer's home or yours? It's mine.> Are you new at this? Yes, I'm coming back to it after 30 years of doing other things. My father and grandfather were in the construction business, grandpa even made his living making windows in Chicago circa 1910 - 1950.> I know I've seen you posting here for a while but don't know what you do for a living. The most important part of what I do for a living involves specifying relationships between rectangles, of all things. I'm Director of Technology for Paramount Pictures Television. As such, I have to deal with the problem of making shows for both regular TV and the new wide screen HDTV system. This involves a whole lot of rectangles, like camera aperture, telecine extraction area (same as TV transmitted area), safe action area, and safe title area. Throw in the old 4:3 and new 16:9 aspect ratios, and that's the rectangle soup of my daily life.-- J.S.
*Well you even typed in $20.00 instead of $20,000 on your subject.
*XJohn, I'm wondering what your lawyer friend has said. I've always been amazed that door and window manufactures have so many illogical ways to measure or call anything, and that suppliers don't pump customers for ALL the pertinent imformation. I've never heard of a net opening in over 30 years sticking windows in holes. I think your supplier screwed up, and I'd pursue that tack. I'd also be thinking outside the rectangle, about how I could make what I got look good...Best of luck
*John,When I say that it is your fault, I mean that you should have gone the extra step in making sure that what you ordered was what you ordered. See it in writing first... make certain that you know what terms mean other than having them just sound right to you.I suppose you may have a good case in that the lumber yard used terms that are not common and should not have expected a homeowner to understand.Hell, you should hear me order doors... hinge side, latch side, swing in, swing out... gets confusing, ya know, even after you've ordered a couple hundred or so..... I just don't do it every day. But I make darn sure that it is right before I finalize the order... no matter how dumb I sound (so... if I am standing outside and the door swings in and the knob is on my right.......)Pete
*I'm another who sure hopes you come out on this okay. I didn't want to be one of the first to say that I have NEVER ordered windows without obsessing over them first. Doors are easy, but I've always been where a few big, wrong windows could bankrupt me. Never ordered a window without knowing exactly what I need and then making the office cats at the yard recite it back to me. And make them look at my drawing and recite it all back to me. And keep copies of everything. As my wife says: I'm a worrier. But some guys don't worry enough. Good luck!
*So john,What did the monkey behind the counter at the lumber yar say ( I really dont read all the threads so whats the outcome).
*Put in trailer. Insure heavily. Pray for lightning.
*> ( I really dont read all the threads so whats the outcome). Ron --No outcome yet, they still have the money and the windows. I'll be seeing the lawyer tomorrow, and update you if anything comes of it.I've been sick as a dog all week with the flu.-- J.S.
*So I talked to the lawyer. His opinion was that because the paperwork they did was so minimal that I'd have a very good chance of winning most if not all of it in Superior Court. But the downside is that it would drag on for over a year. So, what I'm going to propose is that I'll use the windows if they'll eat their markup, and give them to me for what it cost to get them made and shipped from Canada. I've asked the actual manufacturer in Canada for a quote on two of the sizes to get a handle on what that markup is.-- J.S.
*are the windows in question replacements....or new const? Sounds like they guy thought you were ordering replacements. You know.....installed from the inside. Do they have nail fins? Jeff
*Jeff --They're new construction type, flashing but no nail fins.-- J.S.
If you've made the move to the new forum, will you update us on the windows?
"A completed home is a listed home."