Customer had a new addition put on about four years ago. At that time the entire house was re-roofed.
Please refer to the drawing.
Red is ridge, green valley, orange leak, blue removed vents, gray denotes the addition.
The two leaks on the right side I understand. The cut valleys have no roofing cement and the tips of the cut shingles were not cut off. In addition, at the bottom of the valleys right at the edge of the roof, the slope reverses a bit and so there is a bit of puddling.
The “roofer” removed a couple of vents on the addition thinking they may have been the problem (and given how the others are installed I’m surprised they are not all problems).
The leaks in question are in the addition. They might be in line with the seams in the decking. There has not been any water dripping from them, just discoloration.
I have included a pic of the ridge. This is the only possible source I can think of for these leaks.
I would welcome any thoughts on this.
BUT, the leak in the wall of the original house (now under a new roof), I do not understand. This leak appears inside in the doorway where there is closing hardware in the horizontal door jamb. It has actually leaked enough to get the floor wet. Customer says when he pushed on the closing hardware, water squeezed out from behind it.
This wall would be under the original roof. It is hard to believe that the source of this leak is the addition ridge.
So, the valley?? That is the next pic. The two valleys in back look like they started doing cut valleys and never did the cut.
For the record, the shingles are Owens Corning Oakridge Pro 30.
I should probably also mention that much of the roof on the addition is sagged a bit. The final pic.
Thanks.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Replies
Hi Rich,
Is there enough room to get a look at the underside of the sheathing?
1. Looks like the roof pitch may be too low for shingles?
2. Looks like the reveal is too large?
3. Looks like a couple of areas have butts not overlapped? Would this be where the vents were removed?
Have you checked for exposed nails?
Does the leak occur every time it rains or just if there is a bit of wind?
If the leaks are all in the same horizontal plane on both sides of the new roof and you say the roof has a sag, then it's possible that the leaks are occurring in the valley and traveling sideways and being helped down hill by the sag, along the long edges of the sheathing ply until deciding to drop through.
"Is there enough room to get a look at the underside of the sheathing?"The addition has a cathedral ceiling, so no."1. Looks like the roof pitch may be too low for shingles?"It is marginal. I didn't measure it, but it's probably a three or four in twelve. In the SaggedRoof pic the camera is tilted."2. Looks like the reveal is too large?"I believe the reveal is correct. But I will double check."3. Looks like a couple of areas have butts not overlapped? Would this be where the vents were removed?"I'm not sure what you mean by that. The vents were removed from the right side of the ridge in the RidgeThree photo. But I wasn't able to identify where, exactly, the vents used to be. The photo of the sagged roof does not include where the vents were."Have you checked for exposed nails?"Well, I spent a half an hour of there looking at it and I didn't see any. But that doesn't mean a lot. I'll look more closely when I go back."Does the leak occur every time it rains or just if there is a bit of wind?"For most of the leaks in the addition, I doubt the owner knows. They don't drip and once the ceiling is discolored it can be hard to tell if and when it leaks again.But the leak in the wall might well require wind blowing. Something else to double check."then it's possible that the leaks are occurring in the valley and traveling sideways and being helped down hill by the sag, along the long edges of the sheathing ply until deciding to drop through."This is possible and I have considered it. But note the pic of the valley. The leaks are to the left. But it is the left roof that went down first, so I would think that water being diverted beyond the valley would be going to the right, wouldn't it??But that assumes that the valley is an uncut cut valley.You ready for another hurricane season??Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
Edited 6/14/2005 12:06 am ET by Rich Beckman
Can't tell much about what might be the actual problem(s) in the roof from the pics, but.......that is one poorly executed valley,IMO.
And if the remaining vents look like they should leak, then I can't help but wonder how many courses of shingles weren't staggered appropriately either. Might have a few of those and that would account for leaks in what appears to be virtually the same plane on the addition and could account for some of the other leaks also. Can't walk the roof in the pics to see if this is the case.
Bottom of those valleys..........problem could be right there or anywhere above. Any shiners? It's amazing how much water can leak around one exposed nail. BTDT. Can't tell either just how far the "under-layer" of shingles really extend on that valley. Maybe that's why they didn't cut 'em off? It wouldn't take but one that isn't right to let water in. And then there's the mattter of...is there anything under those shingles to catch a valley leak or is the water then right on top of the decking? Is the dripedge on top of the paper or under it? Any I&W shield down there?
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 6/14/2005 12:04 am ET by GOLDHILLER
"And if the remaining vents look like they should leak, then I can't help but wonder how many courses of shingles weren't staggered appropriately either."Well, I have to confess that I didn't look for that. I'm so used to three tab shingles where such a situation sticks out like a sore thumb. I don't have a lot of experience with laminated shingles. I've only installed one roof with them and I'm only fixed one of them.I'll have to check that out.I didn't see any shiners, but I'll look again.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
Could you determine if there's any paper under there at all? Those leaks in "the same plane" could easily occur from alignment faults above that then leave the water thru at the non-staggered seams in the decking.I think under the circumstances, I'd also be cutting off those valleys and pasting every one. Remember a shiner doesn't have to be exposed when it comes to a valley. It only has to be placed too close enough that the water flow runs over it. You may find it (them) when you cut off those valley shingles or by just lifting them and having a look/see.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.Edited 6/14/2005 12:25 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 6/14/2005 12:36 am ET by GOLDHILLER
A couple things jump right out at me. One is that this pitch is low for acrchitectural type laminated shingles. Water can be backing up any place.The valley work is crap, so it is definitely channeling water sideways on such a low slope.Those two tell me that the installation was marginal to begin with.That leads me to presume that there may be no underlayment backintg things up. So water is crowding in at the vcalleys and then running sideways - easy with a low pitch - and getting in at seams in the sheathing or in the case of your mystery leak, at the old wall connection.Could be that some of the staining is from condensation since vents were removed and cathedral cielings are notorious for the problemNothing wrong with the ridgeIn the last photo, do I see this roof terminating at a sidewall junction or is that another house in the background? Flashings could be a part of the problem, but I don't see that detail scetched into your road map
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"In the last photo, do I see this roof terminating at a sidewall junction or is that another house in the background? Flashings could be a part of the problem, but I don't see that detail scetched into your road map"Good catch! That is a garage back there. I can't believe I didn't check to see how that was flashed!!! But it did seem to be a long ways away from the problems (drawing not necessarily to scale).But of course, it is likely there is no step flashing there since there isn't any on the front porch.I'll have to double check proximity.On the condensation issue, does it make sense that the spots would show up in line with one another (seemingly along the seams of the roof sheathing)?Just a note on that valley, the uncut ends of the shingles on top were actually cemented down...at least most of them.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
If I were asked to fix the valleys my solution would be to cut back the shingles and install metal valley with a decent exposure,then Grace from exposure out onto the field 2' then reshingle.
I think Piffin has your other leaks pegged as condensation.
The slope is real shallow for regular shingle exposure-4.5" showing laid over double covered 30 lb. felt would likely resolve the problems coupled with metal valleys and more roof vents,esp. a ridge vent
On the condensation issue, does it make sense that the spots would show up in line with one another (seemingly along the seams of the roof sheathing)?
I think the condensation will occur evenly, but then it will run, and it will run down the path of least resistence--like down a seam.
(Edited to spell "seam" correctly)
Edited 6/14/2005 2:57 pm ET by Danno
Granted, it appears that there is (or was) maybe some puddling or at least very slow drainage. Sure looks like it in the pic. Maybe an accumulated dam of tree leaves and such was/is a contributor to that.But if there's properly sized and installed valley underlayment, it doesn't appear the puddling exceeded the borders of that. If there isn't any, it's "under width", backwards lapped or it isn't terminated properly at the very bottom edge, leaks for sure.That's what occurs to me from the chair here anyway. Wondering what the dark object near the top of that valley pic is. ??? Kinda looks like the edge of a pan vent. If it is, that sure is askin' for trouble to place it that close to a valley and might be the source of a leak.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Rich, from the several laminated shingle rooves I've laid, I'd say the slope is not all that much of a problem, if you reckon to3:12. But it looks shallower than that. Tho i've not seen that brand before...is the 'weather' right? However, there looks to be no ridge venting, so is there condensation?
What chance is there of you opening up the valley and putting metal in? Yes, you'll have to work on renailing.
Did they cut the extg roof to add the new - so the leak goes from one to other - maybe there's a new internal gable wall sitting atop or going thru the original roof? Rafter-tails would have to come off, right. Hell, I hope 'they' didn't destroy the integrity of the trusses!
Can't quite make out if sagging is long axis on roof, ie gables higher than centre; or short axis,, the joists being inadequate for span. Come to think of it, it's the same net result. What abt snow-loads, and does HO notice any worse at that time of year?
That's all i can think of for now.
cheers
***I'm a contractor - but I'm trying to go straight!***
Edited 6/14/2005 9:55 am ET by pikopete
rich.... the valley and especially the bottom of the valley suck..
there is ponding at the pitch break.. you can see the high tide mark,,
View Image
also.... measure the pitch.. i think it's too low for standard installation.. never mind half-assed installationMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
this is where i get the idea that the pitch is too low..
View Image
That valley is awful, it needs to be cut back an inch plus from the centerline especially at the bottom. A 3/12 pitch is too low for any shingle at standard exposure without ice and water shield the whole way. I've seen shortened exposures fail as well. A shingle manufacturer may label the shingle as OK at that pitch but it's borderline at best. It seems a number of the leaks were caused by the vents but how were the shingles laid? If they were racked the roofer violated manufacturer's install requirements. Dimensional shingles should be laid with at least a three step book that reverses on itself, keeping all seams at least four rows between stacks. Make sure the inside gutter miters are clear in those valleys of debris, from the pix it seems that you have close standing trees (ash?) so the uncut valleys will accumulate a fair amount of stuff.
Sagging roof on a new addition? Somebody used the minimal recommendation on the rafter span tables. It may well hold but it'll obviously move with weight and time. Not an easy fix at all. If it was an isolated gully I'd suspect a split rafter but the gentle swale you have seems indicative of an underspec'ed rafter width. The cathedral ceiling makes it an even harder fix, if it can be done at all without a total tear out and redo, framing, rock and all. If the roof sheeting was glued to the rafters and the drywall was glued underside the same rafters creating a torsion box then sagging could have been minimalized but alas, hindsight is 20/20.
Edited 6/14/2005 7:36 pm ET by mbdyer
Dude, the way everyting looks I bet there's no ridge beam at all holding the cathedral roof up...Low pitch, sagging roof, no ventilation..probably 2x6 rafters butted to a 2x6 ridgeboard.. the whole thing's held together by friction.And I bet there's nothing at all under the valleys besides some 15lb felt.Looks like the whole thing needs to be re-roofed...and maybe rebuilt.