I’m an O-B. This is our second O-B house and our fifth new construction. I’ve been researching this plan and project for two years. We’re ready to start framing tomorrow and I’m regretting my choice of framers. Every time I’ve talked to the guy he’s managed to be condescending towards me. He points out all the things I’ll need to take care of then offers to advise me (for a fee, of course). He actually told me I’d need to run a utility trench from the detached garage to the house. And I here I thought those little old wires would just burrow under ground on their own. I just want him to do his job and let me do mine. I’m not a Know-It-All, and I feel like I have a really good group of subs. If I have any doubts or questions I don’t hesitate to ask, but I feel like this guy wants to make me insecure, so he can collect an advising fee.
I asked him to look over the lumber order and let me know if any changes need to be made to the first lumber drop(we’re adding a pony wall), but after a week he hasn’t bothered to look at it. I need to order my lumber this morning in order for it to arrive tomorrow. I’m going to go over this with the guy at the lumberyard, but I thought this was something that most framers get involved with. Could you advise me (sorry, no fee) on what a framer’s responsibilities are?
Lisa
Replies
What does O-B stand for?
Owner-builder.
Lisa ... time to cut and run. If you and he can't get along before the work starts, it won't get any better.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Ed,
I'm sure he has no idea he's annoying me. I can deal with him for eight weeks of my life. I don't need to be friends with him I just need him to do his job well.
I'm guessing that if this guy isn't going over the details of what he should be going over and worrying about trenches and the like instead, that 8 weeks may turn into the longest 8 weeks of your life or it's going to be a 6 month fiasco.Seems obvious there's already tension in the air as you are posting on here and I don't blame you, but something tells me he's got more issues at hand than on the surface. My gut say's he's got a track record like this already and then will start ranting when the correct lumber isn't on hand, perhaps he'll find fault or stick his nose in matters that don't concern him to detract from his performance, or he's got a problem taking direction from the female gender. Whats his past track record with other O-B's and have any of them been run by women?If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
I would expect him to confirm that the Lumber takeoff is correct. What about the hardware takeoff? He should be willing to check these to make sure that you have everything he needs to proceed at the site. Maybe he is looking for a reason to backcharge you for not having evryting ready. Hope not.
Owen Roberts Group
10634 East Riverside Drive # 100
Bothell, WA 98011
http://www.owenrobertsgroup.com
Lisa
The tude in the tone of your post says to me...find another framer.
Eight weeks can turn into an awful long time. Did you get good refrences from reputable people about him?
It "is" the busy time of year and he could be putting you off for a spell by bringing up things to keep "you" busy. If he can't go over the lumber list he's either too busy or not someone I'd deal with.
I had a great mason do tons of work for me and he sort of acted the same way. Kept also raising prices for each new job (I have a good idea what something should cost being in this biz over 30 years). He'd dissapear for days/weeks after each project or even "during" a project to do other jobs. Either hire more help and build your biz and keep a good rep or turn work down cause I'd NEVER ever use him again and we'd been doing biz for the past buncha years. I don't expect to come after a one shot HO cause I'm repeat business thats always on the up and up.
Be looking elsewhere...no one's unreplaceable!
a...
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
Did this guy show up?
Was this framer the lowest price? Was he recomended by someone you know? Seems like you have your hands full. Good luck!!
Was it in the contract that he would do or look over
the lumber take offs?......
If not its not his problem, its yours if you are buying the lumber....
Your the general contractor.....
And its not his problem if the the order is wrong/short if you put it
together....
regards
Lisa, I echo the words of CardiacEagle as a framing contractor who has dealt with many HO's and OB's who've contracted with my company. His written contract should spell out clearly what he is and isn't responsible for.
Now, I normally bid an hour or two into my price for reviewing takeoffs, hardware takeoffs, etc., and I like to review the plans at my own leisure (and on my own time--that's considered overhead) to get a feel for what we're gonna be doing.
Having said that, let me say this: If a very appreciative clients, who accepted my original price no prob, needed $50 or $100 more nails or lumber, I'd probably procure it and just "inform" them of it, leaving them open to pay or not pay for it...that's fine either way. But if I get a client who's being nickel-and-diming me from the get go, you better believe I'm gonna charge them for every cent of my time that my contract allows me to (and it's "airtight," as I call it).
Most of my clients never come to that point; my responsibilities are clearly spelled out, my price is my price, and my Proposal lists everything I am not responsible for.
Good luck, and please keep us updated.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Thanks everyone. It wasn't in the contract that he look over the take-off. Our last framer wanted to verify what was on the take-off, so I just assumed this one would want to look at it also. I'll let him know tomorrow that he only has to look at it if he wants to.
How did you find this framer? I am sure you would not hire a sub without seeing at least one of his recent jobs that has a similar scale and scope as yours. And you must have spoken to those to whom he refers.
If I were your framer, I would certainly want to at least scan your lumber takeoff and drop schedule. You could have ordered all 8s when precut 8s would save a lot of labor. You might be a fan of TrusJoist's new insulated headers which could save me a whole lot of time and trouble. Who knows? At least he should scan it.
But, instead, he seems to want to give you GC-type advice, and then have the balls to charge you for it.
You either need to lose this sub or get straight with him about how he and you are going to operate when it is sawdust and nailguns time, and he is finding problems and missing materials.
The best framing sub I ever had as an O-B offered to review and revise as required my framing package, then break it into the kind and size of drops he was used to, then handle all the order releasing with the yard. Worked out beautifully, and saved me a lot of time.
Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
god forbid he should charge for his knowledge and time....
lisakk, I think your response to him is the right attitude....
regards
Framers are pond scum, they are lower than whale poop!!
I should know, I was one for 25 years or so!
Remember, YOU are the boss, the customer, and the person with the money that the fellow wants.
Tell him what you told us in no uncertain terms, if he can't respect your wishes, or if you are still uncomfortable, get someone else.
Never be in a hurry to get into a jam with someone you don't want to be around.
Lisa, welcome to the world of big dawgs and big egos.
If you're going to play with the beasts, you have to act like one! A smart azzed retort is probably needed to put the guy in his place. If you're too nice to do that, then you'll probably have to suffer for the eight weeks of condescending stuff.
Each framer has his own way. If I'm working for a builder, I don't usually bother to look at takeoffs. I just tell the builder to have ALL the lumber onsite before I get there, then I can just walk around and "scope out the situation". That technique works fine when dealing with competent builders and decent suppliers. Unortunatly, we probably should have been looking at takeoffs on our current house!
Personally, I concentrate on the task at hand. When I'm fininshing a house, I don't like to talk about the upcoming one.
Studying lumber takeoffs is the responsibility of the General Contractor's supervisor. I guess that would be you. You're earning roughly 20% for doing the paperwork. If you want to add that duty to the framer, you should specify it during the price negotiation.
When I deal with homeowners, part of our service is to assist them in some of these details. Of course, we add a substantial amount of money into our quote because we know we are going to earn it.
I wouldn't tell you anything about trenching electric, unless you asked. Then, I'd tell you something very vague because I don't know much about that!
blue
Lisa,
The fundamental denominator here is money. Are you paying him by the hour, or one contract price? If he's being paid a wage (which is the way I've been doning it) then the attitude would normally change. On the other hand, working on a firm bid gives the hacks plenty of room to make more money by doing less, cutting corners and trying to convince you that certain elements of the job are not their responsibility.
The hourly plan has worked out great for me. I've had one of the framers sit down with me on a two separate occasions to make up the lumber take off. The first time he said I didn't need to pay him for it, but I did anyway. Basically, I pay the framers their hourly rate for every minute their on-site doing work. Whether its going over plans or pounding nails- they get paid.
One thing you need to understand about framers (at least the lead carpenter) is that allot of their time is spent reviewing the plans and making sure they can build to them. This includes finding ways to incorporate all the structural details, which in my area (City of Los Angeles) can be a nightmare. If these things aren't worked out early in the framing, you'll be paying more to add, or change it later. Also, framers that work frenquently in the area will know what additions need to be made to pass inspection the first time. Many of these details will NOT be found on the drawing.
Respect torwards you is another problem altogether, personally, I wouldn't tolerate it.
Good luck!
Jim
Remember this phrase, "Do what I want or I'm not going to pay you". It works pretty well with doctors too.
I'm currently a Construction Super but am also a licensed GC. It's my/your job to get the takeoffs right. If you are real good you can make it come really close, then when they only need 4 more 2x4s they go get those ones out of the trash and pull the 8 nails per board out... :-) If you run short, put on your gopher hat... Get used to the idea of a bunch of 1/3 sheets of sheathing scraps being in the trash too.
You said 8 weeks to frame... what are you building a McMansion plus? :-). I've seen some way cut up big houses take maybe 5 or 6 weeks, but 8? What is it - a crew of 2? The ones I just had framed (~1250 sq ft ea) took 5 guys 5 days for both. that included widows and doors and black paper on the roof. They were pissed it took them so long. Now homeowner says "that one over there has a window in the second bathroom - I said I wanted my house just like that one." No window on plans... Put on my framing punchout hat...
Probably wouldn't do to try to put the guy in his place though - it'll just make the job less bearable for everyone. If the guy annoys you that much, cut him loose ASAP. Otherwise, when he says something you don't like, do what my boss does... look at him like he from outer space but don't say anything... it will keep him guessing :-)
What'll we framers know....we're lower than whale poop :-)
Lisa,
I'm not going to take any sides here, partly because I don't know you well or him at all, and because you really don't provide much Info at all.But just to clarify, what I think I am hearing from you is that you hired him to frame it up, heoffered to "advise" you for an ewxtra fee which you declined, then you presented him with a request to do some extra work after declining to pay him for extras. If I've got that right, he is sending you a message by refusing to do any extras. if you think I might be right, it is time to back up the cart and reload. He might think that you are trying to work him over.I would expect to, and want to check your list, because for me, it would be far easier to catch your mistakes ahead of timethan to try building wioth the wrong materials or a lack of critical pieces at critical times. That can ruin a scedule and REALLY mess up my attitude.So it is to his benefit to review that list, but it is your responsibility. Haad you taken him on under a contract to provide all necessary materials, he would be the one respoinsible for getting it right.
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