Please help with this new electrical situation I’m encountering. Do I need a licensed electrician pronto?
Switched lights are going out on the master bath circuit in my house. The switch is in the on position but the lights go out. Everything downstream is out as well. Eventually the lights come back on their own. Here is a crude circuit map:
service panel—->ground fault outlet—->single pole switch—>SP switch—>duplex outlet—>SP switch—>duplex outlet…..
Don’t know if you need this, but here’s more info:
200 AMP service
20 AMP breaker on this circuit
all 12/2 copper wiring
The breaker is not tripping. The ground fault does not trip. Manually tripping it and then resetting it turns the lights back on.
The house is 16 years old and nothing has been done to the electrical system in years.
“The road goes on forever, and the party never ends”
Robert Earl Keen
Replies
It depends how comfortable you are with opening up boxes, how confident you are that you can recognise what you see in them. Would you know if there's been arcing?
I'd start by turning the breaker off, then open the box where the problem switch seems to be, and making sure that all the splices in it are good and the screws holding the wires to the switch are tight. If the switch is a backstab, I'd replace it with a better one. Though from what you describe, it wouldn't likely be a switch problem. More likely a splice in that box, or the one before or after it.
It could be a good idea to do a whole house electrical tune-up. Turn off the breakers one by one. Open all the boxes, check all the splices, replace receptacles that don't hold a plug well, switches that don't have a nice crisp click. Get rid of all the backstab junk. Map out which breakers serve what, and put the map in the cover of your panel.
-- J.S.
Gut reaction - faulty GFI ?
Start by checking the simplest things. TEMPORARILY replace GFI outlet with regular one and see if problem goes away...Buic
Edited 1/20/2006 9:11 pm ET by BUIC
I'm guessing a loose connection somewhere, either right at the circuit breaker back in the panel or at somewhere in between.
I agree that the problem is most likely in the GFCI itself or that there is a loose connection on it.
However, the way that you imply that it is wired, while not against code, is bad practice.
If the GFCI trips then all of the lights go out. You can verify that with the GFCI test button.
If show then change it to so that both the incomeing power cable and the downstream are both connected to the LINE side of the GFCI.
Then the other recptacle(s) needs to be replaced with a GFCI one also.
Start with replacing the GFCI. I just had to bring my electritian in to replace the GFCI Breaker in the main box today. It's the cheapest way to go initially. I had problems withs GFCI's since they were first invented--don't know if they are made in America anymore.
If manually tripping the GFCI and resetting it turns the lights back on then the GFCI actually IS tripping. It may be defective, you may have a ground fault in the wiring or lights, or someone with wet hands may be doing it.
One possibility: Check outside outlets and those in the garage. They may all be wired off the single GFCI. A little rainwater in the outside outlet can knock out the whole string.
happy?
I'm thinking a bad "common" connection. As with previous caller, I would pull apart the first box in line and check connections and continue on down line until I found the problem child.
Nailer01
My guess--
a bad connection at the first switch.
The 'power in' wire is probably backstabbed into the back of the switch, and the feed-through power may be backstabbed also, if the switch has two poke-in connections per terminal screw; if not, it'll be connected to the screw terminal.
Why the switch? Switches move every time they're turned on and off. There's a lot of load downstream of that switch. The little bronze spring strip that bites into the wire in the backstab hole has seen too much heat cycling, and has lost it's grip.
On "part of circuit dead" troubleshooting calls, I've pulled receptacle outlets out of the box and had a wire just fall out of the backstab hole. It's usually the receptacle into which the vaccum cleaner is plugged---except for a space heater, the vaccum is usually the biggest load when it comes to portable appliances. It's the movement thing again; while most receptacles don't see much if any movement, the outlets where the vac is plugged are jostled about fairly often. If the connections are poke-in backstabs, it just a matter of time 'fore they give up the ghost.
I'd pretty much rule out a GFI, at least the GFI mechanism. It wold not reset itself and restore power. It might be the connections at the GFI. The pressure plate backwire conntecitons on most GFIs are hard ot get really tight, a result of cheap screws with lousy heads. So, cramming the GFI back in the box (with 12 gage wire) loosens up the connections. Heavy load cycling, and you get an intermittant open.
When troubleshooting, I start at the place where things change state--working to not working.
Good luck, and have fun, intermittant problems can be really frustrating.
Cliff
Thanks for all the responses. I'll give you an update:
Looks like this will be a bugger to diagnose. I turned off the breaker and pulled the GFCI outlet out from it's box. Turned the power back on and the lights work. Left them on for an hour and no problems. (They have normally been going out in a matter of minutes before.) Inspected and tugged on all wires. Nothing unusual found. Tripped GFCI and reset it. Left it with the lights on for several more hours. Finally turned power back off and stuffed the GFCI back in it's box. Tiurned power back on. Everything works. No instances where lights go off.
I had hoped to encounter the lights cutting off while I had the GFCI pulled out. I had expected to find 120V on the line side and 0V on the load side. Then I was going to replace the GCFI Outlet. But no failures. Measured 120V on both sides of the GFCI.
Next I will pull the bank of three light switches out that are just downstream from the GFCI outlet. I'll look for loose wires or signs of arcing."The road goes on forever, and the party never ends"
Robert Earl Keen