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I had to replace the Hose faucet on our house. I installed the new one and sweated all the fittings. To sweat the copper fittings i used a wire brush to clean them then applied flux to the ends. After that was done i heated the joint up and then the soldier gets “sucked” into the joint.
my problem is that i have two Pinhole leaks around a joint. i cant get the soldier to “suck” into the joint to seal it. i have tried everything and it still leaks.
so how do any of u professionals get a copper joint to stop leaking when it has already been sweated.
thanks
Replies
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jon,
Heat it up, take it apart and start over. There are a number of reasons why your solder job didn't work. The most common are 1. not properly cleaned 2. not properly fluxed 3. overheated / flux boiled out of joint 4. water or moisture in pipe; you either can't get the joint hot enough or the steam is escaping through your joint causing the pinholes.
Someone else may have some other ideas though.
Eric
*I heat the joint fairly evenly, then hold the torch on the side opposite where i touch the solder to the joint.
*Had'em leak all the time when I was a "kid". Eric's #1 is definetely #1. Never have had a joint leak if both pipe and fitting are 100% Bright after cleaning (emery cloth works better for me than wire brush unless on drill) with NO dimples or black or brown spots. I've seen professional plumbers spend 10 minutes on joint preparation on a 1/2" pipe to achieve "bright".
*All that heating and re-heating can't be good for the neoprene washers in the hose bib. Also, the mass of the fitting makes it hard to get it hot enough. So, as a fellow amateur, what I do is sweat on an adapter to threaded pipe, and then screw in the hose bib. The brass to copper threaded joint is no problem for corrosion, so if you have to replace the bib again in the future, you can do it without needing to use fire.-- J.S.
*it will be hard to take the joint apart because its right next to a 90 degree elbow. I really dont have anywhere to slide the pipe out when i do get it loose. So how do the professionals separate a joint when the pipe turns 90 degrees right next to it??by time i get this job done ill have gone through a bottle of propane in my torch !!!!BTW. i was smart enough to open the hose faucet all the way so that the gasket inside wouldnet melt, (i hope).thanks
*Sometimes you just have to hacksaw (or use a mini tubing cutter) off the end of the run and lay a new run, starting with a coupler (leave enough pipe for a fitting).The time between getting everything hot enough versus having burned out the flux got shorter in 1985 when the switch to lead-free solder was made. The higher melting point of 95/5 takes more practice but is entirely doable. I make 100's of joints between the ocassional leak.When using street 45's and street 90's, you have to emery-paper the male end A LOT. They have a two little seams that essentially need to be sanded off before the whole thing is shiny bright. If you don't work at it a long time, you'll leave several continuous paths of unsanded copper and will likely get a leak.Sometimes this will work on a leaking fitting: Get ALL the water out, reflux the outside (near the joint opening), reheat, reapply flux again (it will smoke a lot), apply solder. Maybe 15% of the time this works. Usually not and you have to take it apart or chop it out as previously discussed. -David
*Another thing you can do is pre-tin both parts. Clean well and flux as usual but heat and apply (sparingly) the solder to each part. You will be able to see if you missed any part of the fitting or pipe and use less heat thereby reducing the flux burnoff. You don't have to aim the flame right at the fluxed area.Then while holding the hose bibb with locking pliers, heat both parts until they slip together. A slight turning motion may be necessary. The two presoldered parts should not need any extra solder applied once they are joined.
*Copper and brass do not heat evenly. If you are getting the copper very hot, and the brass is not getting hot enough to melt the solder, then the solder will migrate and stick to the copper only. Clean the fittings, clean the fittings, clean the fittings. And then clean the fittings. After you clean them, make sure surfaces are clean. I use rubbing alcohol to wipe off the grit after I use the emery cloth. Soldering pipe joints takes a little practice. Practice on easier to access fittings first, then when you have the technique down pat, go for the more elaborate and harder to get to fittings.Just an opinion...James DuHamel
*Pinholes are from air exscaping from the pipe.....Air is from steam; water or boiling flux.....Leave the joint alone, flux it up, heat it, solder flows, take flux brush and swipe the joint, add a touch of solder, swipe, done.Takes all of 50 seconds with a good torch....Luck
*In case no one has said it yet: Heat the fitting, NOT the pipe. -David
*i i cant get the soldier to "suck" into the joint to seal it.That soldier must have asbestos lips.
*These are frustrating. I know. Been doing it for longer than I care to remember and I'm still a young squirt!I also found this discussion interesting. I copied and pasted some interesting parts with my comments in []. Any feedback is welcome.Warning... long... but you may learn somethingEric M. Borgman - 01:46pm Jun 27, 2001 EST (#1 of 11) jon, Heat it up, take it apart and start over. There are a number of reasons why your solder job didn't work. The most common are 1. not properly cleaned 2. not properly fluxed 3. overheated / flux boiled out of joint 4. water or moisture in pipe; you either can't get the joint hot enough or the steam is escaping through your joint causing the pinholes. Someone else may have some other ideas though. Eric [ I wonder if Eric isn't a plumber. He speaks with the voice of experience. Very good post. 100% accurate.]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------xJohn Sprung - 05:26pm Jun 27, 2001 EST (#4 of 11) All that heating and re-heating can't be good for the neoprene washers in the hose bib. Also, the mass of the fitting makes it hard to get it hot enough. So, as a fellow amateur, what I do is sweat on an adapter to threaded pipe, and then screw in the hose bib. The brass to copper threaded joint is no problem for corrosion, so if you have to replace the bib again in the future, you can do it without needing to use fire. -- J.S. [excellant point there...common sense is still alive. opening the faucet keeps washer from toasting...usually...in a situation like this...???]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------jon ledebuhr - 07:12pm Jun 27, 2001 EST (#5 of 11) it will be hard to take the joint apart because its right next to a 90 degree elbow. I really dont have anywhere to slide the pipe out when i do get it loose. So how do the professionals separate a joint when the pipe turns 90 degrees right next to it?? by time i get this job done ill have gone through a bottle of propane in my torch !!!! BTW. i was smart enough to open the hose faucet all the way so that the gasket inside wouldnet melt, (i hope). thanks [it's just plain tough jon...e-mail me if you are still having problems OK? I'll try to help.]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------David Thomas - 07:25pm Jun 27, 2001 EST (#6 of 11) In the spruce forest, on the shores of Cook Inlet, in Kenai, AlaskaSometimes you just have to hacksaw (or use a mini tubing cutter) off the end of the run and lay a new run, starting with a coupler (leave enough pipe for a fitting). The time between getting everything hot enough versus having burned out the flux got shorter in 1985 when the switch to lead-free solder was made. The higher melting point of 95/5 takes more practice but is entirely doable. I make 100's of joints between the ocassional leak. When using street 45's and street 90's, you have to emery-paper the male end A LOT. They have a two little seams that essentially need to be sanded off before the whole thing is shiny bright. If you don't work at it a long time, you'll leave several continuous paths of unsanded copper and will likely get a leak. Sometimes this will work on a leaking fitting: Get ALL the water out, reflux the outside (near the joint opening), reheat, reapply flux again (it will smoke a lot), apply solder. Maybe 15% of the time this works. Usually not and you have to take it apart or chop it out as previously discussed. -David [good points there...all of 'em but the last was 100% true and accurate. on the street fittings you can sometimes run sand cloth lengthwise on that seam and shortcut the time that way...sometimes...--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ralph Wicklund - 07:52pm Jun 27, 2001 EST (#7 of 11) Another thing you can do is pre-tin both parts. Clean well and flux as usual but heat and apply (sparingly) the solder to each part. You will be able to see if you missed any part of the fitting or pipe and use less heat thereby reducing the flux burnoff. You don't have to aim the flame right at the fluxed area. Then while holding the hose bibb with locking pliers, heat both parts until they slip together. A slight turning motion may be necessary. The two presoldered parts should not need any extra solder applied once they are joined. [ I totally disagree. All flux and solder and pipe manufacterers I have knowledge of disapprove of this technique. There is no way possible for this to consistantly be leak proof. There is a reason for the standard techniques... no leaks! This one guarantees a high percentage of leaks. Even the pre tinning flux is not legal in some jurisdictions...with good reason. I've tried it. and had no leaks...but the average homeowner (and some plumbers) will try to use it without solder and have leaks. But hey keep it up. Follow this guys advice...I can always use more work!Sorry if I am a bit harsh but this is one to stay away from.]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------James DuHamel - 09:10pm Jun 27, 2001 EST (#8 of 11) J & M Home Maintenance Service (Southeast Texas)Copper and brass do not heat evenly. If you are getting the copper very hot, and the brass is not getting hot enough to melt the solder, then the solder will migrate and stick to the copper only. Clean the fittings, clean the fittings, clean the fittings. And then clean the fittings. After you clean them, make sure surfaces are clean. I use rubbing alcohol to wipe off the grit after I use the emery cloth. Soldering pipe joints takes a little practice. Practice on easier to access fittings first, then when you have the technique down pat, go for the more elaborate and harder to get to fittings. Just an opinion... James DuHamel [obvious this guy has been there done that too. excellant advice James.]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Mark McDonnell - 09:19am Jun 28, 2001 EST (#9 of 11) Pinholes are from air exscaping from the pipe..... Air is from steam; water or boiling flux..... Leave the joint alone, flux it up, heat it, solder flows, take flux brush and swipe the joint, add a touch of solder, swipe, done. Takes all of 50 seconds with a good torch.... Luck [yep...Turbo Torch rules. with Mapp gas! Unless you are experienced stick with the propane as it is easy to over heat with the hot stuff. You wanna torture me? Make me use a $9.95 torch with propane. I'd rather die...almost...]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------David Thomas - 03:10pm Jun 28, 2001 EST (#10 of 11) In the spruce forest, on the shores of Cook Inlet, in Kenai, AlaskaIn case no one has said it yet: Heat the fitting, NOT the pipe. -David [ you are dead wrong!!!!! and dead right!!!!!I disagree with you because there are many variables so one fast rule is never right. On M Hard copper to regular copper fitting it is both. To brass fittings it is fitting and very little to pipe. On L soft copper to regular copper fittings it is the pipe and very little to the fitting. etc. etc.The point is to evenly heat the pipe and fitting hot enough to melt the solder but not much more than that]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Luka - 03:51pm Jun 28, 2001 EST (#11 of 11) You know what I like most about a book ? The pause button.i cant get the soldier to "suck" into the joint to seal it. That soldier must have asbestos lips. [ no comment... LOL]
*Old plumber's wive's tale:Put a ball of white bread in the feed side of the pipe to block any remaining water from flowing down towards the joint you are soldering. It will disolve and wash out after you are done. It works!
*yeah... when you see what can be done with white bread you really wonder about eating the stuff!which is why my lovely wife bakes our own bread
*Well, this thread could have ended after the first reply and been fairly adequate. All else is pretty much reinforcement it seems.One tip though.... If you're going to be broiling the pipes anymore, take the stem assembly OUT of the faucet. You'd have to be extremely careless or torch happy to melt the washer then.Pete "just a little more reinforcement" Draganic
*We just replaced some 2" pipe that had a slow drip. took four hotdog rolls to stop the drip long enough for us to solder the pipe. the only damage was two bread-plugged toilet stop valves that we had to replace. I wonder what happens to the rest of the bread.
*well i was working on the Pipe today. I heated the joint up after i applied flux to it. Then i tried to get the solder to suck into the pinholes. I dont think i got it to work, the soldier didnet "flow" into the joint.Can i fix it without removing it?? the two holes are very small too.
*jon:You can always do the cheapo DIY fix (have done this often, especially when the kids used to miss and throw darts into the pipe and didn't want to take the time for a proper fix!)The cheapo fix:Cut a 3/4" wide piece of thicker inner tube or rubber sheet and scarf the ends to fit, wrap around pipe and compress with hose clamp.
*Heat the fitting, not the pipe.....that one can be a hard and fast rule. And......after all that cleaning.....don't touch the end to e soldered with your fingers. Even just a little finger/body oil can be enough to ruin the joint. Take it apart.....clean it well.....if it doesn't look almost new.....don't be cheap....buy another fitting. Jeff
*Compression fittings.
*Jeff, can you explain about the hard and fast rule? Curious.
*Sure......heat the fitting.....and don't get finger oil where you wanna solder. Oh yeah......the torch is hot when the flame is on. Other than that......it's all guess work! JeffOh yeah...bread's ok...but them new little balls are better.
*I saw an ad somewher (magazine unknown?) for rings of solder to slip on before assembling the joint. My first thought was that's a neat idea, & then about 10 seconds later I thought that's gotta be the dumbest thing I've seen this week. How much time is this gonna save & am I gonna take it back apart when I forget to put it on first? Anybody seen/use them? And Jeff, what little balls? Joe H
*I forget the real name.........they're water soluble balls that fit inside the pipe.....last time I saw them was in a plumbing supply house....but I've heard Home Depot and Lowes now sell them.....but I haven't seen/looked for them there yet......that are said to work as well as the old bread trick to stop the flow of water....even under a little trickle pressure.....but these little guys completely dissolve.....with a little heat if I remember correctly....once the water is turned back on.........maybe THE next best thing since sliced bread! Jeff
*well i was heating up the joint and had flux add to it. The whole thing is still assembled, it is difficult to take apart because the pipe turns 90 degrees the goes in the wall. It is also hard to get to, its in between the joists, and at the end of the joists, right over the sill plate.the joints i am having problem with are 99% sealed, i just cant get the soldier to suck into that last 1%. Everytime i heat it up it never sucks anything, it justs gets hot.I have drained most of the water from the line, there is a drain pedcock on the side of the shut off valve,there is no way i can get bread or something similar in there cause its sealed, there is no opening.any ideas???thanks
*Jon, you have been given answers ranging from easy to slightly difficult. Somewhere in there is your answer. Are you not reading ? Why do you keep asking the same question when it's already been answered ? Why do you ask again, when you have a pile of perfectly good answers ?You asked a question. You got answers. You ask the same question again. Why ?You recieved answers for the question you asked. Yet you ask the same question again. Why ?Annoying, isn't it ?Are you hoping someone will wave a magic wand and make it all better ? There is not much else anyone is going to be able to tell you. It is a difficult job. There is no easy way out. The easiest would be to wrap rubber around it, and clamp down with hose clamps. Personaly, I would cut it out and use the compression fittings, if it were for someone else. But for myself, I'd simply wrap some old inner tube around it a couple times, and clamp that down with two or three hose clamps right up against each other. Alternating the 'heads' of the clamps.Actualy, I take that back. There is an easy way out....Hire a plumber.
*The answer is simple.Take it apart, get a new fitting(s), and start over.Then follow all the good advice above for how to do it correctly.Compression fittings should NEVER be used inside a wall cavity where they would be sealed up. I don't know of a plumbing code anywhere that allows it.James DuHamel
*That's true.You are correct, James.
*James... go get a job as a plumber. You know more than many "pro" plumbers. I am impressed.Note: This is a sincere compliment.
*Another possibility: Use a 12" or 16" frost free hose bib instead of the 99 cent special. This gets you well inside the house away from flammable wood parts. The ones I installed also have threaded ends so you measure twice, fit your pipes once with a threaded adapter and never get the heat anywhere near the washer. Unless you hooked it up to the hot water heater for filling the spa...
*Open up another fixture in the line, upstream from the hose bib. That will allow the steam to escape. Clean the fitting and don't use too much flux.
*I notice that no-one mentioned "finishing" the joint. I was taught to wipe the joint with a damp rag after applying the solder to ensure a contiguous surface and to prevent 'pin-hole leaks'. Isn't this part of the drill anymore ?
*"whiping" the joint with a rag makes it a prettier job but since all the "sealing power" of the solder should work inside the joint, If you're depending on the solder outside the joint to seal any pin holes, I think you're gonna be in trouble two weeks after it's done.
*Jon,Upon reading this whole thread, it appears that you've completely toasted the fitting. Several times. Probably the last few inches of copper that you tried sweating to the fitting as well.At this point, the most effective fix it to cut out the copper about a foot back from the fitting that you tried to solder. Toss it, and the fitting, in the trash and start over.Having a couple of tough angles in the layout is unfortunate, but you have to bite the bullet and r&r some of the Cu to complete the job.Sometimes joints can be re-heated, broken apart, cleaned up and re-sweated. However, if the flux is burned and the copper overheated, it really makes it tough to get the parts back down to clean, shiny metal. Especially if it's been done more than once.Try starting over with frech metal and you'll likely save yourself more aggravation.De-burr your freshly cut copper. Clean the new copper with emery cloth until it shines and all ridges are removed. Emery the outside of the tubing and the inside of the fittings. Wipe them clean. Apply a thin coating of flux to all parts. Set all your new copper in place. Any water from other household pipes that can get to the joint you're trying to solder will likely keep the joint from getting hot enough to allow the solder to properly melt and flow. Your torch simply doesn't put out enough heat.In general, heat the fitting. Not just one spot on the fitting, but slowly work the flame from end to end. Exceptions have been noted in previous posts.Occasionally touch the solder to the joint. It'll let you know when it's hot enough by easily melting the solder, and with a properly shined, cleaned, fluxed, and heated fitting, the solder will be sucked right in.Let the joint cool before proceeding further.Good luck.
*Wet Head Warrior: I agree with you on the whether to heat the fitting or the pipe. I gave the simple answer related to thin-walled rigid pipe (i.e. 99% of interior plumbing). For thick-walled pipe such as type K or L soft (unannealed) and a copper fitting, I'd heat the pipe. But with a cast fitting, I'd mostly heat the fitting. All those big grain boundaries slow down the heat transfer in the cast fitting. Maybe the most important point, as you said, is to be heating them evenly but it requires a fair bit of experience to assess just when each component gets hot enough and adjust your heating pattern accordingly.I'm not sure what I think about your commentary on everyone else's posts. On the one hand, all your comments are on the mark. On the other hand, while this board has some posters who are "more equal than others" - George Orwell) no one is sitting as judge and jury. I've submitted to peer-reviewed publications. This is not one. On balance, I appreciate your knowledgable input but would have preferred it without the massive cut-n-paste. -David
*David, your comment is taken to heart. Thanks.
*It's called "quality".
*The amazing thing about this thread is how much time everyone has put in to answering this one question.Clearly, sweating pipes is an art.If we could all do it from directions then all who have read this should be able.But most of us still find it challenging, even after lots of practice.I have been in Jon Ledebuhr's place before and it was so hard to accept that calling in a proffesional was the best thing to do next. And then that guy comes out and does in minutes what I had been banging my head against for hours (days). And it did not look like he had some special tool or even did it a lot differently than I had been trying. But he does it wonderfuly, and it looks effertless.That is, to me, the deffinition of an art form!
*UPDATE!!I tore out the old pipes, cut new ones and got new fittings.I cleaned one joint very well( it was very shinny), fluxed it, then heated it, it still woulded "suck" in the soldier.I was over heating the joint and the flux.I went to lowes and got an epoxoy( 2 part) thats designed for copper plumbing. I used this and i have NO DRIPS OR LEAKS.my job is now complete and looks good too.Yes, sweating pipes is an art.thanks all
*I've had moderate success in fighting the Chinese water torture drip with a shop-vac adapted down to whatever fixture is at the high end of the line. Open up all drains and let the vac run for ten minutes. I sweat the joint with the vac running. The vac doesn't completely dry the line, but it does seem to prevent that drop of water dangling inside an elbow two stories up from dripping down just as the solder is pulling into the connection. Elsewise, Wonderbread is best. Don't use wholewheat!! Has anyone used rye?
*perhaps. I also "whip" the joints whenever I can get to them without too much work. I was taking issue with your claim that doing so somehow prevents pin hole leaks.
*The tricks I've learned here...
*Not sure, just recall when we were learning to solder that it was supposed to prevent pin-holes (thinking about it, was that now, or develop later ?), something about a smooth skin (??). In any case, with all the soldering lessons be passed around, I was surprised this action wasn't represented.
*At the risk of continued beating of an already dead horse, I always believed that the wiping of a joint with a wet rag accomplished several useful functions. 1. removal of excess flux. Flux is acidic and if you've ever looked at sloppy work a year or two later, you'll notice the corrosion around an unwiped joint. 2. wiping the joint with a wet rag helps to cool and "set" the joint so continued work on the same pipe doesn't fracture the bond while it is still hot. 3. for safety's sake a joint wiped with a wet rag will not cause 3rd degree burns if you brush up against it while continuing your work.One tip I'm suprised hasn't shown up yet is this. When soldering next to a valve set that cannot be easily disassembled, wrap the valve body where the "guts" are with a wet rag. This seems to offer enough cooling in most situations to avoid "cooking the guts" while attempting to sweat the valve.Eric
*I wipe my joints because they look cleaner and don't turn green later. But there is a small window of time where the joint is cool enough to bump but still hot enough to sizzle the rag and dissolve the residual, baked-on flux nicely. I'd suggest a beginner not wipe joints because of the chance of bumping it too hard too early. Let them develop a leak-proof technique first, and only then work on prettying it up. I haven't heard and don't see how wiping would reduce the incidence of pinhole leaks. -David
*As a guy who's got a lot to learn, I wanna say thanks for all the info in this thread, its great that we DIY guys can learn so much on here.Chris Potvin
*
I had to replace the Hose faucet on our house. I installed the new one and sweated all the fittings. To sweat the copper fittings i used a wire brush to clean them then applied flux to the ends. After that was done i heated the joint up and then the soldier gets "sucked" into the joint.
my problem is that i have two Pinhole leaks around a joint. i cant get the soldier to "suck" into the joint to seal it. i have tried everything and it still leaks.
so how do any of u professionals get a copper joint to stop leaking when it has already been sweated.
thanks