I need some advice from experts. My wife and I have inherited my mother-in-law’s house as she’s recently passed away. We would eventually like to live there but would like to remodel before we do. The house is 22′ by 48′ and one story with a concrete block basement. We would like to lift the house and add a second story. Who can we get to come out to the house to tell us if the house can even handle those kinds of changes? I am cautious about getting that kind of info from a general contractor because he may just be looking at a paycheck (no offense to all you quality GC’s out there). Would I call an architect? If I need a structural engineer, where do I find one? I would like to have more information before I start searching for a GC.
Thanks,
Joe
Replies
That's a big order. First look at the neighborhood and be sure that increasing the value (hopefully) of the house that much won't raise it greatly above value of surrounding houses. And also ask yourself if the house that will result will really be what you'd like, or will it be a poor compromise.
And how old is the house? Be aware that in most jurisdictions you'd be required to bring the house completely up to new code standards if you put that much work into it. This could mean new wiring, and likely would mean major reworks of the bathroom and kitchen.
The usual method is to remove the roof, then add a floor and a new roof. Sometime it's possible to reuse the roof, if it's built with trusses.
When was the house built? Does the roof have rafters or trusses?
My in-laws have lived there for over 60 years. Apparently the house was little more than a shack when they bought it. They added on and I guess my FIL dug out the basement by hand. The story is that he had to stop at around six feet as he hit bedrock. (There is a stream flowing through the property. Flooding has been an issue.) Therefore we would like to lift the house. Being from the depression era, my FIL fixed things however he could. Usually with as little cost as possible. I'm sure all electric and much of the plumbing will need to be replaced. However, the floor joists are only 2x6's throughout most of the first floor. I need someone to come in and tell me what's OK and what needs upgraded for the changes we want to make. I just don't know who to turn to.
Probably a general home inspection -- as if you were going to buy it -- would be a good starting point.Based on your situation, you might want to consider converting it to a "split entry", with the "first" floor sunken about 4', and the second floor 4-5 feet above grade. Not ideal for handicapped access, but an efficient use of space. This would probably require reworking the foundation, but not too much else.
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
IMO you should seek out a good contractor. They will be able to assess a lot of existing conditions and advise you. I'm a contractor, and although jobs like yours are my paychecks, I wouldn't get you started on such a project unless it was what I considered a good thing for you first, and then me. A good GC will have connections to engineers and whoever else might be needed. If you start with an engineer, you may get a design out of it, but I think you're better off doing this in conjunction with a GC to provide pricing and other reality checks. Worth mentioning that an engineer might be able to steer you to a GC who can do the job. Putting out a few feelers can't hurt. If you do choose to go with raising the house, you probably need a house mover, and they will know both contractors and engineers.
I also think you should see a GC. But more importantly you should find someone who has experience with this kind of project. Most architects and engineers (and GCs) will not know anything about this. Use you time to find somebody who does and who is also someone you can trust and work with. Those three requirements will eliminate all but one or two contenders.
When you find the right person, they may tell you not to bother. Be ready to accept this advice.
Thank you.
Am I allowed to ask for recommendations on this forum?
If so, I live in north central Ohio so if possible shoot some names my way.
Thanks again.
Joe
I'm going to make a suggestion
knock down the house right NOW!
it'l be easier & cheaper. Depression Era make do house? 2x6 span 22'? I can just imagine the electrical. Your foundation will not support a 2nd story. The tie in to different additions will be a nightmare.
or go talk with a GC
good luck
Quite often a major remodel like you are suggesting is more expesive then building new. Get a good contractor and ask questions.
I have seen done in a situation similar to yours, the existing whole house and roof was lifted up. A new foundation and new first floor was built (higher) under the old house. Then the old house was lowered onto the new construction. The old first floor became the new second floor. All new electric and plumbing throughout.Before lifting, the old house was gutted down to the joists and studs on the inside. Old structure was beefed up where required.Granted that was done on an old house that was bought dirt cheap and needed a total reno anyway. Around here, that is a renovation/remodel and addition. Property taxes are computed based upon existing "rates" of the original house. If you knock down a whole house, then the property taxes are computed on (incredibly) much higher rates. All you need to do to preserve the old tax rates is leave standing one original wall.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Unless there is huge sentimental value. Give it to some one to move as a hunting cabin or ?
Building above a poorly drained house is just wrong and most old stairwells are way to narrow.Fining someone to lift a house is hard enough but up a story and a half?????
any additions would fall off.Talk to an engineer, ask the house movers for one that is familier with lifting houses.
One fellow around here was lifting a house a couple years ago and it fell in the basement. This guy also passed him off as an engineer. He how is looking out from behind bars. Ask for credentials.We have the same situation, MIL is in long term care and the family agreed to sell the house as is. not one penny into it as it is old small and poorly built.Hope all works well and keep us updated.
Fining someone to lift a house is hard enough but up a story and a half?????
any additions would fall off.
Sure why NOT lift a story and a half? Lift it 3 stories if you like.
I'm not talking about hiring Barney and his brother in law Bubba who owns 3 car jacks and some rail road ties.
Hire professional EXPERIENCED house lifters/house movers.
Also, I'm wondering why any additions would fall off???
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Patch
First additions. How well are they made? are they properly tied to the structure? Can they be lifted with the main house? is there access to slide a beam under?Lifting a house to put a basement under is on thing but. Lifting it and securing it so that you can build underneath with a house 12 feet in the air. Yes a pro can do it but the cost would be worth more than a house alone.Imagine a house 12 feet in the air and a good wind comes up. Would you be working under it? not me!!!If you think that buy the time they got a wide enough stance to stabilize the structure. they better have a big lot. Then building in the pockets for the beams to drop in to be removed, you would have a real screwed up framing plan.Sure it can be done. They inherited an old house not a heritage site with unlimited $.
Like I said, I've seen it done. With an addition. A real pro has no problem lifting it 3 feet or 12 feet. And safely too.Maybe some additions are more difficult. Knock down a small one if you like. Raise the main house. Rebuild the addition.Situations vary, and I cannot see the OP site from my keyboard! :-)My point is that some 1 story homes have a very good structure, although cannot have a second story added ON TOP of it. But .... raising it and building another story UNDERNEATH can be a viable solution.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
If someone hasn't mentioned it, talk seriously to a realtor about what your house may be worth after you spend X$ on it. They may be able to steer you into good choices, like best number of bedrooms/baths; finishes; floors; roofing material; other desirable features in your area.
The idea is to spend your money wisely; where you're most likely to get it back. Maybe $10K for glorious granite countertops doesn't have a good resale in your neighborhood, but the same $10K for a window upgrade or real fireplace is a great selling feature.
Forrest
I'm not sure my wife and I are concerned about resale value. We are foster parents and have no children of our own (although we've had probably 70+ boys come through our home over the years). Therefore we have no true heirs. However, two of the boys we've just sent off to college are talking about changing their names to ours, which is pretty touching. That said, I think we are more concerned about living comfortably and how we want. We don't have much money so we want to be frugal but this will be the last place we hope to live. Having it done right and to our preferences is more important at this point.
We appreciate all the comments as this is starting to give us hope again that this is actually a possibility.
Sure - but realize that the activity most commonly overlooked by the HO, yet a huge part of a big renovation project, is the tremendous amount of minor and major decision-making you'll be doing. If you haven't been through this, either as a homeowner or a general contractor, you'll simply be amazed - and you don't want to do it on the fly.
Without a clear picture before-hand to guide you, the risk is that you'll make a group of unrelated choices, that while individually "good" on their own merits, may not combine into a "whole" that is the best use of available resources (money) and aesthetic sensibility (harder to quantify, I know!)
< we want to be frugal . . . (but) . . . Having it done right and to our preferences is more important . . . >
This is the big balance - with a specific budget but without a very clear and rigorous plan before you hammer the first nail, you WILL run out of money before you're finished, because the literally hundreds of 'minor" decisions you make will all add up by the end, or perhaps before the end. additionally, unforseen challenges and opportunities will happen - 20% of the entire estimated cost in $ and time wouldn't be unrealistic
Hope I don't sound negative, but I want to hammer home that every BIT of information you can learn before you start will stand you in good stead.
I love building, and have done a good bit - but physically hammering things together is often the easiest part.
Forrest -
Edited 11/17/2009 9:36 pm ET by McDesign
If this is the last place you wish to live, you may want to give some attention to the critical living areas being handicap accessible.
sano,
take Mcd's post 33 and print it out and memorize it. commit it to memory, digest it, seek out sages that can explain it's true depths to you, and then tatoo it somewhere you'll notice everyday before you start this project.
I'm not a pro. GC'd my own place. there is an avalanche of decisions ahead weather you remodel or build new (build new btw)
oh, and each of those decisions seems to start at a grand, then for some reason they move to 3 grand, no gradual progression????
before you talk to anyone, you need to have your budget in place. How much can you afford? if your financing any part of it, it doesn't matter if resale isn't important to you, it will be to the lender. So, what prices do the local region support?
good luck, have fun, nail down the #'s
We appreciate all the comments as this is starting to give us hope again that this is actually a possibility.
I think you may be hearing what you want to hear and avoiding the rest of it. It is a possibility but is it going to save you some serious money and will you be as happy living in it as you would in a new home of your own design?
Well my friend,
The economics of the situation seem to point in the direction of selling it or tearing it down and building new. The amount of time/moey spent on the kind of project you envision usually outweighs any savings that come from rehabing an old structure.
I once did two projects for the same client. He'd bought an old farm with a hundred year old farm house. He thought he'd save money by fixing up the farm house, instead of building a new home. He hired me to "fix it up a little".
His wife didn't want to live in it, even for a weekend, until it was up to modern standards so he kept adding improvements. She still wasn't happy so I advised him to let me build him a new home, near the old farm house, telling him that he could rent out the old place.
He spoke with his wife who perked up considerably. I designed him a grand home with all the amenities, twice the size of the old place. When both houses were completed, the costs per square foot for each job were surprising, even to me. The new house cost about one third less per square foot than the renovation of the old place.
The time required to fit and fix most old homes, like the one you describe, is far greater than what is needed to build new. The savings on materials is almost insignificant.
Yet another option might be rent it for whatever you can get out of it. Even if folks tear it up like some renters can, at least you will generate some income from it before you decide to tear it down or reno it.
For qualifications, I'm just a DIYer, but I've learned from a few mistakes in checking for contractors, etc. If it were me, I would call a few architects, not just one, & ask for a few recommendations on GCs that are capable of handling such projects. If you're not in a very large city, some names will probably popup several times. After you get that list, be honest with whichever GC you decide to call. Tell him you want him to take a look at the property with you & provide advice on you plans. Also, tell him that you probably would be soliciting bids from others if you decide to go forward with the work. Offer to pay for his services. Most will probably not accept reimbursement, but in these times, many need to recover some costs from such activities.
Alot of good advice so far especially when considering the aspect of knocking down or renovating.
Either way, when you call that GC, please be prepared to pay him for his time in doing the research and providing his insight for you. I get calls like this many times and folks seem a bit shocked when I tell them I can put a report together detailing the different possibilities but there is a charge. They think I should work the 8 or so hours on it for free.
So I just mention this so you are not shocked when you call someone if they bring up the idea of a cost even if nothing gets built, renovated or knocked down.
Then there's the advice that one contractor gave my dad, when he was considering rehabbing the old farmhouse he bought: "Insure it, then burn it down."
(Ended up putting something like $15K into a house appraised at $4K, and having it reappraise at $35K (40 years ago). But a lot of sweat equity.)
Great advice so far. Especially DanH's suggestion regarding a home inspector.
The teardown or renovate question is always tough when one has a "borderline" house.
As far as the feasibility of making your desired changes if you go the renovation route, I'd get someone out there with a little imagination to sit down with you and your wife to look at some options. I do that all the time (I'm an architect) and there ought to be somebody in your area of Ohio that has an imagination when it comes to conceptual thinking and renovations.
For reference, here's how I work it:
I like to come out on a Saturday morning when all the parties are fresh (including myself) and all of the decision makers are there. I normally don't work weekends but for these I make an exception. I come armed with bumwad, scales, pens, pencils, camera and a tape. I like to have the homeowner already have roughly to scale floor plans but that's not essential. It's just if we have to to it then it takes time that morning.
What we have then is a little "design charette" over their dining room table and usually in about 3 hours I can have one or typically two or three approaches roughed out. I leave all the bumwad drawings with the client. I don't like to go more then about 3 hours because about that time everyone, myself included, starts suffering from "information overload" and zones out.
I always charge for doing this, usually a lump some equaling 4 hours of my time (to account for travel time). The reasons are 1), the fee weeds out the tire kickers. If a person isn't willing to come up with 4 hours of my time it's unlikely they're up for a 5 or 6 figure renovation and 2), if the owner pays for it, it's his to do with as he pleases, even have a draftsman draw my ideas up. Early on I discovered there was a lot of moving forward with a project using all my ideas but the last I heard was "Well, we're still thinking about it" until I drove down the street and saw my solution embodied in brick and stone. It's just better to charge from the get go.
Talking to a builder is ok if the guy is a conceptual thinker but a lot of "Design/Build" builders are pretty weak in the "Design" department and it's really nothing more then a six letter marketing word. Not all are like that as there are exceptions out there.
The best of luck. If you want more info you're welcome to send me a personal email.
Runnerguy
I come armed with bumwad, scales, pens, pencils, camera and a tape.
Just wondering, is bumwad always at the top of your list?
Just wondering, is bumwad always at the top of your list?
At the top of the list used to be Giacoma da Vignola's "The Five Noble Orders of Architecture" but I found the "information overload" time I referenced above was shortened to about two minutes. That, and he doesn't have a whole lot in there about filling in carports.
Runnerguy
The house originally sat on a 3 1/3 acre plot. We added about 5 acres of woods that we bought off a farm estate. The five acres stops anyone from building a house above our spring. Water and sewer are free there. We also keep a rather large garden there as well as numerous vegetable raised beds (also asparagus, berries, grapes, etc.). There is no sentimental value to the house itself. BIL actually suggested tearing down the original part. Floors in that section are bouncy. The property is secluded yet within village limits. Selling is not an option. Also, if we were to lift, we would only go up 3 or 4 course of block as the basement is already 6 foot deep.
I appreciate all the comments. It certainly points us in a direction. If I wanted to speak to an engineer, how would I find one? They are not listed in the phone book. Also we are happy to pay for someone's time and effort. I don't think I'd trust someone giving away their consulting services. I can get that free from the neighbor (although it may require a 6 pack).
I believe I'd first call a legitimate house mover (they have their own engineer), to ask what it would cost to raise the house for a week, long enough to lay the block. You can start by asking for a ball park figure over the phone. That'll help you get some of the project's costs in focus.
Honestly, my best advice is to build a new, energy efficient home, elsewhere on the property. Use the old house for a base of operations, then tear it down or get a permit to burn it down. For a modest donation the local volunteer fire department is usually up for a training exercise of that kind.
The client who I mentioned in my previous post remained frustrated for years after seeing how his decision to try to save money on the old farm house had turned out. He tried to blame me and others for his poor judgement but we all kept telling him that he was the one holding the reins and making the decisions, not us. He insisted on that, at the time. Close to the vest, nickle and dime.
In the end he had an old house with new faces on the inside and the outside. The floor plan was poor, because it was designed for a different era and added on to when there was a specific need.
That reminds me of another aspect of rehabbing old homes. The problems don't stop when the job is over. With a well built modern home, there should be little or nothing to do for maintenance or repairs, for twenty years or more. With a rehabbed old house the little problems just keep coming up.
I'm living in a well built older home now, one I've been preparing for sale. It's amazing how many small things I've done to detail it out properly. Hundreds of trips to the various suppliers too.
Edited 11/17/2009 11:10 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
> Especially DanH's suggestion regarding a home inspector.You didn't care for my other suggestion?? ;)
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
That might very well work. I didn't get too deep into a solution and was just trying to give the guy some guidance as to how to arrive at one.
Runnerguy
(This was my other suggestion: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=126612.15)
A strong nation, like a strong person, can afford to be gentle, firm, thoughtful, and restrained. It can afford to extend a helping hand to others. It's a weak nation, like a weak person, that must behave with bluster and boasting and rashness and other signs of insecurity. --Jimmy Carter
Oh I missed that one. Entirely workable too. Let's see I can see it now......the alibi......."See officer!!! When the fire was set, err I mean began, I was posting at Breaktime!!
Runnerguy
This is one of those situations where its good to be reminded:
The questions CAN YOU? is entirely different than the question SHOULD YOU? and often carries exactly opposite answers.
You've already given many clues to how I would answer both questions. six foot basement, stream running through. 2x6 floor joists, little more than a shack.
Interesting that no one asked you what your budget might be <G>.
You've assumed that a house of 2100 SF will meet your needs - but that is normally established by programming. Maybe it does, but that's an assumption in lieu of a professional assessment.
As an architect budget and program would be my first questions, before pulling out the bumwad ;o)
30 years + experience suggests that it might be most expedient, given your descriptions, to tear down and start over - although there are a number of related questions.
I would find a good local architect, personally.
Jeff
Edited 11/18/2009 7:53 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke