I need some advise.
My church has some serious plumbing problems. The cast iron waste lines under the building are pretty much rotted away, and need to be replaced. Waste is escaping from the pipes, into the ground water.
The plumbers spent at least a week jack hammering the floor in the kitchen to get to some of the pipes, and another week or so re-plumbing everything, and have everything there fixed.
But now they need to replace the pipes to the front of the building, probably another 60′ or so of jack hammering.
Patrt of the problem here is that there’s a room over part of the area, with about a 28″ crawl space between the room’s floor, and the slab the pipes are buried under. The room is about 14-16′ across, with a block wall on either side.
I’d like to know if anyone has any suggestions on how to gain access to the pipes without blowing up half the building. I’m thinking of renting a concrete saw to cut a channel, but never used one of them before.
And part of my reason for finding a solution for this is that I don’t think it’s very wise to be paying plumbers wages to jackhammer a concrete floor. The guy from our church who’s been overseeing the project has been overwhelmed by the scope of the work. I’d like to make things a bit easier for him, if possible.
Replies
Then get him some volunteers with sledgehammers.
You won't believe how much dust will be created with the saw.
Edited 7/9/2007 4:34 pm ET by peteshlagor
There's no dust from a wet saw. "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Bottomline, Vintage is right.
I've cut so much and have all the tools, but these guys are so cheep and get it done so quick it's a no-brainer.
Agree. Unless the labor + tool rental is cheaper than the contractor."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Once I needed two 7" and one 6" cores put thru the ceement foundation + brick to vent my shop. $70. Took all of 30 minutes and clean as a whistle.
Cores are different than straight lines. Anything bigger than a one inch hole definately should be subbed out."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Then again, straight lines introduce bonding issues in the repour...
Pins? No pins? Undermine?
It's always sumpin'.
That's kind of what I was thinking.
How are they to operate in confined spaces?
Whatever you decide, don't use a gas engine saw anywhere inside! I made that mistake once with a rented wet saw. Thought that I'd be done quickly, before the exhaust fumes got bad. Serious error IMO. I almost passed out, just barely crawled out of that basement.
Even with all the basement windows open and a big fan at the top of the stairs, pushing the air out the open back door, that little gas engine loaded the area with carbon monoxide in just a couple of minutes.
Shep,
Have you considered re-routing the drain? Going out a side wall and around the building?
Umfortunately, the way things are laid out, re-routing the pipe isn't an option. Everything feeds into a holding tank, and then has to be pumped up by sewer ejector pumps to the street.
The church was built in the '60s, basically on a land fill. We're enough below street level, that everything is a pain to deal with. Plus we get flooded regularly.
But I understand that we got a great deal on the property when we bought it. <G>
Edit to add- Thanks for the warning about using a gas powered saw. I really hadn't thought about the CO fumes, but considering the area we'd be cutting in, it's a real possibility that there would be a problem.
Edited 7/10/2007 11:26 am ET by Shep
Shep ,
Is this line that is being replaced on the pressure side of the ejector pump ? it doesn't sound like it is but just wanted to clarify. SamT has the best idea so far IMO, drill a new pipe along side the old and make connection at each end outside the block wall.
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
At some point, the pressure side to the street probably will have to be replaced. It does have a crack in it, but nothing too big ( yet).
Is there a way to drill under a slab? We'd have to go about 25-30 feet from the current repairs, to where we could connect to the rest of the line in the boiler room.
edit to add- oh, yeah, I just remembered that the new line would have to go thru 2 concrete footings, supporting walls above.
It looks like there's really no easy way to do this.
Edited 7/10/2007 7:10 pm ET by Shep
Shep,
Yes there are ways to drill under slabs and buildings. The foundation walls (if accessible from one side) can be predrilled and a directional boring machine used from a distance away. I have seen it done for elect. conduits , and am aware of it as the technique is used quite often to bore under roadways for gas lines etc.. Whether is is cost efficient is another question. I would certainly investigate it though as the cost of a few phone calls is cheap. Best lead for companies that do that work may be through your local utilities."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Edited 7/10/2007 7:36 pm by dovetail97128
Here's the one I have, the Partner K3000 electric 14" wet saw:
http://contractorstools.com/partner_k3000.html
It won't be as fast as the big ones, but with a volunteer operator, that shouldn't be a big problem. It'll fit in the crawl, and not make poisonous fumes. 28" is a nice big crawl space, you can go on hands and knees there. It's where you can't get up on your knees that it's really a drag.
The water will be a mess no matter which saw you use, but this is a crawl space. You definitely want to cut wet, both for blade life and dust is lots more obnoxious than glop. Check your local rent-all places.
-- J.S.
If you are over an old landfill, be careful of methane or hydrogen sulfide gas or other gases that may have accumulated under the slab. This is a potentially deadly situation that should be evaluated carefully. A 28" crawlspace is about a confined space as you get.
shep,
I would contact a concrete cutting company.
On previous projects, I have rented saws (both electric and gas) to cut my own slabs. It made a dusty mess and took a long time.
My last project that required cutting a slab, I called a cutting company and they cut over 100 LF (actual length of cuts) to create several trenches for the new plumbing work.
They were done in under 3 hours and this was all done in the basement of an occupied home. They used a hydraulic powered wet saw. Hydraulic unit stays outdoors, two hoses come in w/ the saw. Relatively neat, clean and done for less than $350.00.
Push a 20' pipe under the slab section with crawl only access.
SamT
I'll second or third vintage1's advice.
Find a concrete cutting company, have them come out with a hydraulic concrete saw.
I've been there, done that with the cast iron pipe replacement in the basement for the kitchen drain line. I spent hours and hours jackhammering out the area for the new bathroom rough-in. We were looking at an additional 20' due to the pipes being corroded. Called up a local firm that does a lot of highway work and they were in and out in just a few hours.
It is kinda messy, but far less so than with a gas powered concrete saw. Put up plastic to shield the over-spray.
If you've got 60' to run through, don't waste your time trying to do it yourself. Sub it out to a pro and call that the best money spent.
Otherwise, can you re-route the drain pipes? :-)
Glen
I talked to a concrete cutter this AM, before I posted this.
The problem, at least in his eyes, is that there's several levels to move his machine up and down. He said it weighs 750 lbs., and can't get it down some of the stairs.
Also, the big problem is getting to the slab in the crawlspace below the classroom floor. There's no way to get his machine there without removing the floor, which is tensioned concrete panels. If we cut into them, the whole floor is compromised.
My thought was to hire someone with a big wet saw who could make the cuts. I was thinking of opening up the walls at either ends of the crawlspace to gain access, and using a mid-size jack hammer once the cuts are made. I know working in a 28" high space will suck, but I'm thinking it would be less of a pain than having to deal with the floor above.
This job involves the 2 things I like doing the least- concrete and plumbing. But I might just do the concrete cutting if it will save my church a bunch of money.
Hi Shep,Sorry to hear the first concrete guy wouldn't be able to tackle the job. One of your other comments makes me think the cutter you talked with doesn't have the saw that I was envisioning. The guy who cut the line for my basement had this massive circular saw with a 12" or 14" blade that was connected back to his truck through two monstrous tubes. The tubes supplied the fluid that spun the circ saw blade. So long as your project is within the reach of the hoses he has, there shouldn't be a problem getting the saw to your site.I do recall my plumber saying that there were only a few crews in town who used that type of saw, so you may have a similar situation and may need to call around a bit.On a completely different note, I started thinking about the safety of cutting / hammering out the concrete underneath that crawlspace. Assuming the pipe has been installed for a while, you don't know what settling may have occurred around the unions in the pipe. In my case, the floor dropped out a good 6 or 8 inches while the guy was cutting. He was ready for it, so he didn't get hurt, but how well would somebody stuck in a 28" crawlspace do?Might be worth getting some extra opinions on what can be done to resolve this. There may be a different solution available.Glen
I'm almost positive that the ground under the building has sunk some. That's part of the reason we're having problems with our pipes. They're not being supported, and have sagged and broken under their own weight.
I do intend to call other cutters, and others in my church are also pursuing other possible solutions.
I was jus hoping the wizards here would come up with a miracle answer.<G>
I was jus hoping the wizards here would come up with a miracle answer.<G>
Here ya go. When the old gas line from the street to my parent's house began leaking, the gas company sent out some guys with special, flexible plastic pipe. They fed that into the original pipe and pushed it through, all the way to the house, about 100'. Then they hooked it up. Just a little bit of hand digging on each end of the line.
It's a long shot but maybe that same system is available for plumbing drains too. I couldn't tell you if it is, but it's worth a few calls, I'd say.
There are sewer pipe lining systems that could be used if it is just "rotted" CI.But, if it has collapsed or settled it won't help.I wonder what a video inpsection shows..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
One of the first things we did was have a video inspection.
Unfortunately, it did show that the cast iron had settled considerably in some spots, and collapse in others. I think partly due to the ground settling under the building.
Another part of the puzzle- the building is actually constructed on hundreds of wood pilings, driven down to solid ground. I can remember hearing the pile driver from my home a mile away when the church was being built.
Because it was built on poor soil, I guess we're paying now what we saved up front.
shep,
Earlier I had posted to you about the hydraulic concrete saw, but reading further see that you may have a problem with the height of the crawl space.
for, attached is a photo (sorry for the poor quality) of the saw my guy used. Very mobile. If they adjusted the handle I bet it could work in your situation.
Another thought would be to use a concrete breaking agent such as Dexpan. http://www.archerusa.com/Product_Dexpan.html I don't think it would be as easy as cutting, but if you could get in there with a roto hammer to drill the holes, It has to be better than trying to swing a sledge in a crawl space.
Hope this helps.
hire this out.
saw too big- not your problem
cant be moved- not your problem
too much noise- not your problem
too much dust- not your problem
your deal is to tell him where to cut, and then I be back in two hours, let him do his job.
Thanks for the reply.
That;s what I'm leaning toward. I want to help my church out, but this is something I have absolutely no experience with. I'm a carpenter. I hate concrete . No offense.
I think I may call a couple more concrete cutters, and see if I have any luck. Maybe I can find someone with the hydraulic set-up someone described.
After that, I'll let the plumbers do it their way.
Maybe I can find someone with the hydraulic set-upif they dont- not your probelmcan you cut on this line
yes
I be back in two hour(hint) you really dont want to be there when they cut, trust me on this one.